Studying in Australia/ATPL?
 

I'm looking for a place to train as a commercial Pilot,with limited funds.I have managed to find a place in Melbourne(www.flying-school.com)but unsure weather the ATPL licence I gain there will be valid in England!Also the full course i'll be doing is CPL with multi engine endorsement and instrument rating,if anyone has ever trained in Oz or has heard of this school please advise.

No one seems to be answering you Sunny so allow me to volunteer my limited knowledge.

It is dependant upon what ATPL's the schools is offering.

If they are Australian, then they are not valid in the JAA or whatever it is over there system, and you will have to do them again when you get home. Much more intensive and difficult than Aussie ATPL's I believe, and the Aussie ones aint no picnic in the park either.

I suggest you ask the school which it is, and don't take their word for it get it in writing. Also don't let them tell you it is a simple conversion proceedure as this is simply not the case. From my knowledge Aussie ATPL's are worth naught in the UK, and you could be back to square one, albeit with an Aussie CPL when you get back.

Also do your research on your chosen school thoroughly. As with most schools around the globe, they a partial to stretching the truth, and/or neglecting to inform you of hidden costs etc. Ask for all up costs including landing fees etc, and also ask/demand referees etc, ie: past students.

Be sure you are getting what you think you are getting. For example, is the instrument rating inclusive of flying time, or theory only ?

Lastly, why not try the Dunnunda and Godzone forum down the bottom of the forums index. You will probably get more local info there than Wanabees, and chances are some good feedback on the school you mention.

Hope this helps.

Aussie to UK ATPL
 

Hi Sunny,
Let me tell you about my experience. I am an Australian who has married a nice (northern) Irish girl, so we have the right of abode for the UK/ EU. About 3 years ago I gave up on the idea of getting a decent first flying job here in Australia after getting my Aussie CPL. Opportunities for 300 hour pilots in the UK were much better than what they currently are now, so when I found a way of funding a UK professional license I went for it knowing that Visas etc. weren't going to be a problem.

The conversion from a 300 hour Aussie CPL to a full JAR Frozen ATPL went like this:
1. Get a class 1 Medical Cert from the CAA (Gatwick) first. Without this you cannot get your license/ ratings issued and you will never be allowed to fly commercially. I don't know if you have done this yet but do so before you commit any time and money towards training.

2. Do your research! Sean Simpson is correct in that any traing towards a professional license done here in Australia is in no way shape or form recognised by the JAA. The hours done will still be credited in your log bok but the training itself is not valid. This counts for both flying or theory. The JAA has mandated that all training towards a JAA professional license must be done in a JAA member state. The only exception I think is at PPL level with a few places in the US and South Africa. To be completely sure, log on to the CAA's website and in the Personnel Licensing section there may be a listing of all of the FTO's who are JAA approved to do training towards a JAA license. Or you can call them on 01293 573 700 and they could mail a listing to you. The long and the short of it is that ANY training organisation anywhere in Australia is lying if they try to tell you that training with them can count towards a JAA professional license.

3. If you did come over and get the Aussie frozen ATPL you will have to:
- Re do all of the ATPL examinations. Prior to this you will have to study for the exams with an approved school to an approved syllabus either by correspondence or residential means. Both are costly and expensive.
- Re do the CPL flying training at a JAA approved FTO. I think the course is 25 hours in length, but you need to budget for another 5 hours just in case.
- Re do the multi engine Instrument Rating (although you do get a 5 hour reduction off the 55 hour course if you already hold an ICAO ie. Aussie MECIR).

I'm not sure of all of the approximate costs to do all this these days as it's been a couple of years. This all sounds a bit grim I know but a trip "downunder" is still very beneficial towards getting your JAA frozen ATPL because you can build hours down here for about 45-50 Punds an hour in a PA-28 or C172.

In order to be elegible to start sitting the ATPL's, you must have 100 hours P1 time (I think). You will save loads of money doing your hour building this way, and many in Europe head off to the States as well to build up hours. It is also very much worth your time getting an initial twin endorsement and a night rating as you need to have this when you start the training for the Instrument Rating, and the night hours are required for the issue of your JAA CPL. This is a huge and beautiful land, the flying is just fantastic and the airspace is so much less crowded.

I know the Aust. College of Aviation as I fly at Moorabbin Airport when I go flying. (I live in Melbourne). From what I can tell, they are a good company to train with. Drop me an email if I can pass on any other thoughts/ opinions.

Once you have done this, then you are ready to commence your training for a JAA license in Europe.

Now having got my JAA Frozen ATPL, there are very few jobs to go round, especially for low timers. My plan is to move to the UK mid August next year and hopefully things will be on the up by then.

Cheers, Gearup

Hi sunnygee,

I have completed my training at a large flying school in Sydney.

Despite previous comments, there ARE schools in Australia that offer JAA training, British Aerospace in Adelaide is one of them, they also hold the cadet contract for British Airways.

I guess it all depends how much money you want to spend and what sort of employment you are seeking, remember you only need to get a JAA license to work for a EU airline, if you wanted to work for a Pacific, Asian or American airline you don't need the JAA conversion.

You can walk into major airlines like Qantas, Air New Zealand, Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines & JAL with less then 1000 TT and Aussie Frozen ATPL/MECIR.

If you want any info re Sydney schools feel free to e-mail me.

Best of luck!

stormy

Don't think, in fact know for sure, you are wrong, you cannot "walk" into any majors like the above named with strictly only 1000TT. That for sure includes CX, and JAL. Both of wich I am very close to. You will be considered with 1000TT only with mostly multi-turbine time. Even that is a long shot, and an impossibility at JAL. Even though, it never hurts to try. You may get lucky, but never ever count on walking into a job. If only life were that easy, stress would never be a factor. :)

By the way, Singapore Airlines only accepts Direct entry captains, who usually have much much more than 1000 TT. If you are a local, you can try their cadet program. Best of luck.:)

I posted a similar question a month or two ago. Someone - I think it was Reddo - confirmed my suspicions that there are no flying schools in Australia which are currently recognised by the CAA. British Aerospace used to offer CAA training, but never upgraded to JAA.

Sorry.

(But if you find out anything different, please let me know!)

FFF
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Hey Stormy - you wouldn't have by any chance also done an instructors rating with the same mob would you ? Excuse my skepticism but with comments like "walking into an airline job" etc etc sounds a lot like the crud most of the schools are spruiking.

Have to agree with Relieferer - no one "walks into an airline job".

Stormy, BAe at Adelaide do not offer any form of JAA training. They did for a while offer the UK CAA approved course (509), but they were never serious in the funding of the infrustructure of the course so after losing the BA contract the approval went soon after.

Meeb, Adelaide did run 2 JAR courses after the end of the 509, but the decision was to leave Spain with the JAR training and Adelaide with the Asia market.

touch&go, the courses you mention were a hybrid course, not JAR. As for the second part of your posting, thats one (incorrect)version of the story...

Thanks to every one who replyed,after alot of thinking and research i've come to an conculsion,I will be taking my ATPL exams in London then going to Texas to do CPL and IR training.
It is the partner company of Oxford and is JAA approved,also quiet reasonably priced.

Meeb,

The 2 courses were indeed JAR-FCL ones but had initial problems with the Learning Objectives and the Question Bank, there was lots of confusion and doubt amongst the cadet pilots at the time.

I was in one of the courses and i earned a JAR-FCL license as well.

As a matter of fact Adelaide was supporting Jerez's ground school with books and manuals sent to them to help their students.

touch&go,

You're right mate that is what happened in Adelaide. I think it was a good move on their part to end JAA training as they seemed too concerned with Asian contracts.

But frankly have no regrets, great flying, great instructors and very good setup.

cheers:rolleyes:

Aeronavigant, how did you and the other members of your course get on?, I was one of the 509 guys that left just after your started, all my course did really well in getting good jobs after we got back to the UK,

Let us know, most of the other guys pass through here, and I'm sure they would like to know how you got on.


Good Luck

Aero, as you say, you were a student there, so how can you know about (mis)management issues? Your support for touch&go and his theories although commendable, is misguided. The place was a joke, and probably still is in the European scheme of things...

Meeb
Hi there,

Have you been through BAE in Adelaide?
If so, you have every right to say your point and I respect it.

But frankly how many cadets out there will tell you they liked everything about the school they chose to train with?

I personally didn’t like it all in Adelaide, but after completing my license I looked back into those days with a more rational look and point of view.

When you speak of mismanagement, yes there was some to a certain extent. But that happens elsewhere plus the circumstances at the time I can understand.

Even on getting back to the UK to complete my training I had a chance to look and see for myself at well-known UK based FTO’s and compare.

Problems encountered there are typical of any complaints you read in this forum about many well-known schools.

And if the place was and still is a joke how come they train cadets for you know who…
It is all what you make of it.

Thank you

touch&go

You must be one of the UKP1 lot, yeah mate e-mail me direct and I’ll be glad to get in touch with you.

Cheers

Aeronavigant,
Your profile doesn't seem to allow e-mails to you. Me here from UKP1 too. Hope things are good for you. Cheers.

Well on refection I was very happy with the school and at the time was the only school that didn't have a bad name or bad report, yes the ground school didn't have a exam bank, there belief was to teach the subject not the exam, weather this is right or wrong with regards to passing the ATPL's, is a matter of contention, the flying side had a good team of instructors and worked round the clock during busy autumn after or ground school exams to get use throught our GFT's and also the aircraft had zero defects and if you had a problem they change the aircraft there and then.

The IR back in the UK was a culture shock, but thats another story.

The school will have to be JAA approved for any hours to count, appereently- I too have been considering training in Oz, as it can be a heck of a lot cheaper than in the UK, plus the weather is obviously much better.

I chose to do my training in Madrid. Take a look at ATPL FTO in Spain thread to see why (other than being more convinient)

blueb0y79