Firstly, how far into your degree are you? Many Aerospace engineering grads go into car design or anything that has an aerodynamic aspect to it. Australia really isn't at the forefront of aeroplane design unfortunately. One of my colleagues is a former aero engineer, he used to sign off B747s and the like. He prefers flying and has just made captain, but also uses his engineering skills as a reg & tech guru writing procedures for special airports etc. Another string to his bow.

What do QANTAS want? CASA ATPL, Command IR, unrestricted passport, Class 1 medical, appropriate experience. You gain the experience through instructing (if you don't want to leave Melbourne) and moving through the ranks that way, ideally Grade 1 flying instructor with multi engine and IFR teaching credits. If that doesn't appeal, then you pack your car and head "up North" to places that hire low time pilots. (That's what you'll be once you've finished training. You should have at bare minimum, a CPL with Night VFR. For the bigger aircraft, you'll need the ATPL subjects and an instrument rating). The bare minimum will qualify you to fly day VFR charter in probably a C206. Then it's the hour build/gain experience -> move to twins -> turbine etc. However, you'll hit the numbers when the QF hiring cycle begins.

Right now, QF and most airlines in Australia won't need new pilots for a while. They might in about 5 years time - just a guess.

heya redsnail, cheers for the response.
Yeah, I was very much aware of the relative lack of jobs in Aus for aviation-adjacent aero eng, and honestly wouldn't have had an awful problem with leaving. Of course, this was before covid... Currently looking at second year. I think the past year or so has probably wizened me up to the fact that I'm not super likely to get a job designing anything, and I've realised that instead I really wouldn't mind doing the actual flying itself though. Although I very much appreciate in the coming years its all about a diverse skillset and all those buzzwords. They're buzzwords for a reason!

As for qantas: I appreciate they (like most airlines) require a fair amount of experience. I know for this kind of thing dad did a lot of flying around Exmouth as a low-time pilot, and i think he quite enjoyed that. I wouldn't mind either staying in Melbourne or leaving honestly, I'm very open to chasing it. If its not a hassle to ask, what would be the pros and cons of each decision?

5 years until I have a chance doesn't sound awful to be honest, thats definitely something I can stomach. I understand that currently its about the recency of a lot of pilots after covid, with operations opening back up, and maybe not so much on people fresh into the system.
Anyway, thanks! Already things have been cleared up a lot.

Ha! There's a good chance I may have crossed paths with your dad then. I wasn't in Exmouth, I was in Kununurra and Broome in the early 90's.

Staying in Melbourne, Pros. It's with your friends and family and all that a big city has to offer. Cons. You can get "stuck" with instructing and whilst it's not a bad career path, there's fierce competition for what little twin flying there is. Also, you have to find your own students etc and the Instructor rating is not cheap. You will not earn a lot of money. (Come to think of it, you won't until you make it to the bigger regionals/mainline)

Heading up north. Check out the Dununda forum for more info. Cons. You're away from home and you need to be able to cope with that. If you're used to a pretty comfortable life, then sharing a house with a bunch of blokes may be a bit of an eye opener. Competition is very fierce for any job. You'll need to do any work to survive. Pros. If you're persistent, flexible and not an idiot, someone should take you on. You'll be doing charters/scenics etc in some of the most remote and beautiful places in the world. Twin progression should happen quicker. You'll make contacts and friends who'll really help for the next steps in getting turbine jobs etc.

About that 5 years. It's a guess. No one really knows. And if for some reason you miss out on QF, what then? It's great to have a goal but you do need to be pragmatic and flexible.

When To Start
 

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if people could give their opinions/advice on the situation I am in regarding when to start training.

I am currently in the middle of the second year of a three-year undergraduate course (non-aviation) which I started in 2020 instead of starting my integrated ATPL at a large ATO in the UK due to COVID-19 and wanting to see what the future held for the industry before committing.

I personally feel that since then the global outlook for aviation has improved significantly, especially the last few weeks with a number of countries that have had very strict border controls deciding to loosen them significantly, I also have seen that the recovery is following the eurocontrol most optimistic scenario with 2019 levels being reached in 2023 or 2024 and finally I know that all of the British Airways new hire cabin crew hold pool have been offered start dates in spring 2022 which again is a very good sign.

I have been thinking a lot about all of this and obviously I would rather be at the front end of a hiring wave than the back so was considering deferring my final year of university to start training, then finish my degree at a later date when I am done, this way I can take advantage of any potential hiring boom and still have completed university, is this a good idea or am I being overly optimistic?

Looking forward to reading your responses.

I shall keep this short & sweet. Complete your degree, and then proceed Modular. Get the timings right, you can achieve CPL/IR nearly as quick as Integrated, who have been known to have delays for various reasons.
There are still large numbers of pilots (note 1) of known quality to return. If there are shortages due to airline rapid expansion, they are far easier to return to the line.

Note 1: those laid off/made redundant might have taken ‘early retirement’; others have found more secure employment (train driver?) & decide not to risk it again due financial/family commitments.

Fast forward 2 years since COVID started. Is it still worth to drop everything and spend over 100k to pursue the dream? With no job guarantee and only optimism and motivation.

It's never been worth it for £100k. Because a fATPL shouldn't cost more than £40k

Removed

Should I go for it? Please advise and help
 

Hi everyone,

I am new in this great forum, and would like to know your opinions about my situation and intentions.
I am 35 years old, PPL holder, and wondering if I should study ATPL and go for the remaining licenses to become a professional commercial pilot. My concerns come mainly from my age, current jobmarket situation , real chances of getting a job when I finish (I have no big contacts at the airlines), and whether that future life would suit me (I know it has loads of sacrifices, but I honestly think trade-off is still positive when considering all the perks and specially, my motivation and vocation).
I am currently working in a non-aviation related company, with a medium level and salary position. It is quite a stable job but I feel burnout, bored, and have always dreamt of being a pilot. I honestly feel the moment is now or never, mainly due to age reasons and because I need to decide in order to focus my professional/personal life.
Would love to know your advise, comments or any other tip you can have.
Thanks a lot in advance.

Best,
Europeancitizen

Hi Europeancitizen,
Here's the thing. Can you afford to throw away €60K+ on your dream and living on €25K for a few years after the training? If you can, great. :)
If you cannot, then think long and hard about spending that kind of money.
I see you have a Class 2, make sure you can get a class 1 with no issues otherwise, there's no point in continuing.
The cheapest way is modular, the best way is to get onto a tagged scheme whereby an airline will pick you up after training - assuming no issues. BTW - you'll still pay for every thing, just a lot more outlay from you.
Just curious, what "perks" are there?

35 too old? 🤣🤣
So a 28 year career is not enough?
Have you never heard the expression 'buy the dip' - when exactly do you think the best time to get into the industry is? Hint: it's not when they're hiring like crazy.

Thanks for your reply. I could afford them with efforts of course, but I have some savings and loads of hope and motivation.
Starting salaries are one my main concerns if I achieve entering an airline somehow after getting all the required licences. I have been told that companies such as EZY or RYR pay more than that, but not sure though. The thing is that probably being a freshly licensed pilot with no prior experience nor TR of any kind, sounds too optimistic to find a proper job in the medium term from today, and in a short time period after graduation?
With perks, I was thinking about a daily life that albeit its sacrifices, I find it challenging and amazing (travelling, big responsibility, continuous study to be updated, best views possible from an office, dream of my childhood, etc...)

Hi rudestuff,
I don't think a 30ish year career is not enough. What I am refering to is if airlines prefer 20 yo fresh pilots or 30ish fresh pilots with more life experiencie, both in terms of maturity and professional experience although in a different field.
I don't know the phrase buy the dip I'm afraid. You mean now is a good moment?
Thanks

Any help would be much appreciated!!

Hi Europeancitizen,
"loads of hope and motivation" many many many people have had that. Hope and motivation will not pay for a mortgage or help you save for retirement. It's great that you have it but you do need to be very realistic. Eg, I can hope that the weather will improve for the arrival but If I haven't planned for a diversion, then I am in a whole world of bother.
Buying the dip is a reference to buying shares on the stock market. You buy when there's a dip or downturn in the market and sell when it rises.
There is one well known low cost airline in Europe that flies B737s that has a reputation for not employing anyone over 40.

Fair enough re perks. Here's a recent flight.

[QUOTE=redsnail;11246518]Hi Europeancitizen,
"loads of hope and motivation" many many many people have had that. Hope and motivation will not pay for a mortgage or help you save for retirement. It's great that you have it but you do need to be very realistic. Eg, I can hope that the weather will improve for the arrival but If I haven't planned for a diversion, then I am in a whole world of bother.
Buying the dip is a reference to buying shares on the stock market. You buy when there's a dip or downturn in the market and sell when it rises.
There is one well known low cost airline in Europe that flies B737s that has a reputation for not employing anyone over 40.

Fair enough re perks. Here's a recent flight.

Great flight!!
Thanks redsnail, I agree with your views. I am 35 now, and expect to finish everything by 37 so hopefully age will not be a problem? Let's see how things recover in 2 years time. I want to try my best in achieving this, and if something goes wrong, I can always return to my current profession.

airlines couldn't care less of your age, I've seen plenty of "older" FO's join our airline. The captains you fly with will probably appreciate that you've got a bit of life experience and more to talk about than just going to Uni and starting at CAE/L3 etc.

As far as a good time to train, who knows. Plan for the worst and hope for the best and you'll have a back up if !!!! hits the fan again anytime soon.

Hey dude,

Here to help, up to you ultimately. I can relate to your situation as I was in your predicament YEARS back.

Q1: If family life is important to you have a think about this, depending on the airline, you will be away for xmas on a trip, won't get a swap for your loved ones birthdays/funerals. will work weekends and public holidays BUT you'll have a lot of time off because of flight time limitations during the course of the year, have a bidding system in your airline for those special days. Pilots do commute throughout Europe generally with their own airline where you will jumpiest for free so that won't be an issue.

Q2: yes of course you will probably be based in Europe.

Q3: In Ryanair you return to your home base everyday, some airlines you could be on overnights for 5 days throughout Europe and back to your home base on day 5. I think the question you are asking though for your case is lets say you are living in Amsterdam but based in Dusseldorf, can you commute everyday back to Amsterdam, technically you could but you will be very very tired and flights get cancelled, bad weather etc..... so no not possible.

Q4: No Airlines don't care what you have but invest in getting a good CV and covering letter done.

Pilot life is not really suited to families unless you are super lucky and get a base close to your home, its a very selfish occupation. Aviation Induced Divorce (AID's) is a real thing and I have seen plenty of marriages destroyed because flying/money is more important than kids and wife. if you start in Ryanair you will be based in STN/DUB or literally anywhere on the continent so expect to commute from there, Transavia or KLM well you will get looked after. Money is terrible and conditions are awful in the low cost airlines so don't expect more than 20k a year in the fist year.

I did the training and got a job, I'm close to home have kids now and wife still puts up with me but it did put a big strain on our family life for first 4 years. want to move companies now so I know there'll be a tough road ahead but that's aviation dude its always changing. you can get real lucky or get seriously ****** over, hard one to call.

what I would do is go for a cadet gig that's not a low cost airline while still keeping your engineering gig. Low cost is awful and a terrible way to start your aviation career.

would I do it again?? so far yes but its !!!! at the moment things will come good again.

im not going to tell you what to do your a big boy. best of luck ;)

How terrible is it to start training imminently?
 

Adding onto the pile of messages, apologies if some or all of my questions have been answered already…
From the UK, have a good engineering degree and because of covid went for my ‘backup’ career and have started medicine, with 4 years to go. I have my medical and have kept it up to date just in case.

I have since realised after numerous conversations that following one’s dream is far more important, so have decided funnelling my funds into becoming a pilot is a better decision for me - I recognise the huge numbers of downsides of professional flying but I think I am past saving at this point as I do understand anyone sane would probably finish up becoming a doctor yet still want to fly even with the risks/pay/conditions (that being said, Id argue the NHS isn’t doing much better of late with the exception of me having a 100% job guarantee if I pass my exams).

A few questions really:

1) Will there be a job to get if I graduate mid-late 2024 given the aftermath of covid and the impending recession? I get very different messages as to what the job market is doing and is going to do, so if I’m genuinely going to ruin my future training now and not getting a job at the end, I’ll become a doctor then fund pilot training in my 40s as a consultant (even though I’d rather get going now).
2) MPL or fATPL? I was looking at generation easyJet at CAE since they seem to be open, and I’ve heard despite the rocky start for those trained during covid they are now employed. If not that, is FTEJerez still the premier institution that it was when I looked at it around covid times?
3) Can someone explain to me what tagging is in ATPL programmes? Companies don’t seem to clarify what tagging entails and whether it’s provisional employment or just an interview. And are any airlines actually tagging pilots in the likes of FTE training programmes at the moment anyway or just hiring the backlog of type rated pilots from pre-covid?
4) if everything goes wrong and there is no job market, what is the cost of upkeep of an fATPL (or MPL) whilst waiting and applying for jobs? I assume knowledge checks and flying hours are required - but again I’m not entirely clear on how many, and what kind of money I will need to earn to stop the initial 100k going to waste and keep my licences intact before employment.

I hope that was all clear - I’m writing this in a short period of time in a break at the hospital!

Thanks in advance to whatever poor souls deal with the endless stream of wannabes like me.

flyingdoctor357

I qualified in 2007 so other people will have more recent experience of flight training, but I’ll try and answer your points.

(1) The million dollar question. Who knows? Without a doubt the industry got rid of too many jobs as a result of COVID, leaving airlines and airports short of staff for the rebuild. My employer is a glaring and shameful example of that. All things being equal, there will be a need for some recruitment to replace pilots who’ve been made redundant or left the industry altogether. In the UK, BA, Virgin & Jet2 have all recently advertised pilot vacancies, which is a positive sign. However . . . All things being equal . . .

Russia turning the gas taps off is contributing massively to inflation and the cost of living crisis, not just in the UK but across Europe, and there is little chance of the situation improving anytime soon. There’s a good chance it will provoke a recession, and if that happens don’t expect much expansion / recruitment for the foreseeable.

If you’re impatient to start training (and we’ve all been there) then slow but steady would be my advice.


(2) fATPL, definitely. I assume you know that a MPL course ties you to a specific airline and type of aircraft? If that airline has second thoughts and stops recruiting, they can and will drop you and your course mates in a heartbeat. And it has happened. Your training school might then – without a hint of embarrassment - offer you the ‘opportunity’ to convert onto an fATPL course and pay for it all over again . . .

And if you go fATPL, don’t fall for the marketing hype and be aware you don’t have to go integrated to get into an airline. Modular gives you the same licence for less cash and – crucially in the current climate – allows you to train part time or slow down the pace of training to suit the job market. (See point 1 above). I cannot overemphasise the importance of qualifying when airlines are actually recruiting.


(3) I’m not familiar with the term, but assume it means some sort of link-up with the school and a possible job offer when you qualify. If so it could mean anything from a guaranteed job offer (very unlikely) to your CV landing on a smaller pile and giving you a better chance of an interview. Schools like to big-up their relationships with airlines, for obvious reasons, but in terms of the big picture, if airlines are recruiting there will be jobs out there, if they’re not then you’ll struggle to find work whatever the school’s marketing people tell you.


(4) An often overlooked point . . . The instrument rating must be renewed every year, and as well as the cost of the test, if you’re not flying regularly then expect to budget for some refresher training first to get you back up to speed. IR skills are very perishable, particularly with low hours / experience. As I said it’s a while since I trained, but back then the ball park was to work on £1000 p/a to keep the IR current. On top of that, airlines value currency / recency, especially for low hours pilots. My first employer wanted 50hrs flying experience in the last year, and Virgin’s recent advert wanted 200hrs flying hours in the last year as well as a type rating (not that I’ve checked). ;) That’s a reflection of the job market and shows they can afford to be picky.

If you’re paying to keep an IR current and only flying 10-20 hours per year, you will be at a significant disadvantage compared to someone with a newly issued licence. (See point 2 above).

Not a problem – we were all wannabes once! :ok: