Regarding distance learning (and schools)
 

Ladies, gents,

I am investigating which school to choose for distance learning ATPL theory.
I came across these ones:

Bristol Ground School official.................2920 Eur
F-Air (CZ)(Oxford aviation)...................1560 "
Bartolini Air (BGS)(HU)........................2250 "
Fly level (RO).....................................3600 "
Flyteam (CZ)......................................1490 "
Dutch Aviation College (NL)...................2995 "
Orbit ground school (NL).......................3095 "

In line of principle I think I will go for the Bristol Ground School material, but I am really puzzled about what dis/advantage any of these schools can offer...

Does anybody has experience with any of them (especially the Dutch ones)?

Fast Track or stick to modular way ?
 

Hi,

I hold a PPL with 100 hours PIC.
I’ve passed all ATPL theoretical examination.

So the time has come to chose a school for my CPL IR.
I was more inclined to continue the modular way in a school in the UK, either PAT in Bournemouth or AFT in Exeter.

That was until I saw the fast track option 2 from CTC in partnership with Wizz Air :
Fast-Track Option 2

The total cost is €79,800 with CTC and €39,290 with PAT.

The total amount with CTC does include accommodation, JOC and A320 TR in case of employment with Wizz Air.

If you account for the cost of JOC (8,000 to 10,000 euros), the cost of the Airbus TR (20,000 euros ?) and the cost of accommodation for 6 months, that makes the CTC way approx 7,000 euros more expensive.
Is it worth it ?

I'm soon to be 30 years old and the CTC fast track option seems like a nice way to be FO on jet relatively quickly.
I do understand that employment is not guaranteed and being based somewhere in Romania (Budapest would be nice though) isn't exactly my idea of a dream job but I'll be happy to do that for some time and move on to something else later.

(My dream job would be bizz jet or cargo airline but I don't have enough experience nor is it the right time to be picky.)

I’d like to have your thoughts on this.
What would you choose and why ?
Any thoughts on Wizz, PAT or CTC are welcome.

Thanks !

PAT all the way! Your chance with Flybe being 30 will be higher! They Have a long And well establish partnership!

NEW OPTION
 

For those of you researching this age old question, there seems to be a new initiative which you should check out. Have a look at the Wings Alliance thread. They seem to be offering the best of both (integrated and modular) worlds...

Questions about modular training
 

Hello
I just finished my master's degree and I am now in a transition phase, where I should decide precisely what to do next (euphemism for saying : looking for a job)
I'm still hesitating to try and become a military pilot, but I think my decision is to try and become an airline pilot as soon as possible.

The most likely scenario is that i will get, in the near future, a job as an aerospace engineer for a french airline, or aircraft manufacturer or similar company (missiles or engine manufacturer).
I have now my PPL-SEP and 135 hours.
The other 65 hours required before the CPL could be very well flown within the next year or so (since engineering is a field that pays enough), and thanks to my master's degree in aerospace engineering and my basic knowledge of aviation, I can easily learn the ATPL theory.

Given this experience, I can't apply for some (most?) programmes with CTC or CAE (there is often an 85 hours limit). But even if i could, would it be wise to pay so much money when i have already paid 15k€ for my flight hours ? I calculated that, from my standpoint, I could get my frozen ATPL without paying more than 30k€, whereas I understand a cadet programme could cost thrice as much.

Now, that question of going for a low cost modular formation or going with the pricier CTC/CAE is further complicated by the following.

I would not like to be in debt. I have the ability to pay these 30k€ in 5 years of working in engineering, or less. I think it would be safer to keep an engineering job and get my pilot's training during my holidays or weekends. This forbids me from going to a flight school that's too far away, like in England..

So I'm guessing you can understand my situation with the previous elements.
Is it wiser to take a greater risk (quit my engineering job) to have a better chance of finding a job (with CTC), or is it wiser to keep an engineering job during my training and until I can find a pilot job ?
Is experience as an aerospace engineer a decisive advantage to get a pilot's job ? Could it positively compensate coming out from an unknown french school ?

Is there any objective element that I might have missed ?
Is there another possible scenario ? Like going to a well known cheap english school for modular courses during my holidays ?

Thanks.

Edit : my post has been moved to this topic but it isn't really about integrated vs modular, since it looks like going integrated would not be a wise option. It's more about expensive english modular school vs my local french school nextdoor

KP, just because you have that experience... doesn't mean you have to declare it to CTC or other FTOs if you go integrated.


I believe now that CTC has got rid of the previous-experience credit where you could cut down part of the basic training course if you already had a PPL and get a bit of a refund.

But there are still people going through with over 100 hours who are just not counting any of those hours towards licence application.

At the end of training when you fill in your licence application form you write down how many hours you have total, how many hours you completed as part of the course, and how many hours you are "claiming". If you do the full integrated course you do the full hours and get the licence, any extra experience on that form is not an issue.

2015 jobs.
 

Any news on the job front for the modular class of 2015?

Oh my eye!! on a totally different subject, I have just used my new/used Sennheiser S1 Digitals that I purchased second hand from ebay to replace my busted Bose A20s and I cannot believe how good they are. So much more comfortable which is amazing seeing as my A20s were great. Not that I recommend streaming music when flying but the S1s actually fade out ATC when there is a transmission. - Amazing :ok:

New Member currently PPL
 

Hi and good morning, just wanted to post introducing myself to the forum. I'm from England and currently studying for my PPL (which by the way is a nightmare with the weather in this country) and really wanted some help.

Posters can break it down as simple as they like but I'm not devoid of intelligence.

After doing my PPl I intend to do my night, multi and VMC rating. Then obviously I'm a qualified PPL. After this, and maybe a job upgrade/loan ots time for the CPL, after this its the Instrument Rating. Then maybe Type/apply for jobs. Is this a good route to go? I really want to fly but do not have the access to funds for an integrated program to get straight to an airline. Don't mind if it takes me 5 years plus, 27 now and looking to be qualified before I'm 35. Is it worth doing an instructor rating with my CPL? Any other tips or advice is greatly appreciated from anyone who has done it this way.

jamesgrainge,


This is my honest opinion, take it or leave it.


If you cannot get the funds / training loan to do a zero/PPL to hero course(speak to Oxford /CTC ) then DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!


Though the route you are planning is the traditional route (and the only admirable one!) it will leave you with about 200hrs and hardly any twin time, you may if you are lucky gain employment with a small GA outfit and be paid in dangled carrots whilst working in their ops room. You may convince a twin operator to give you a job and build up a few thousand hours over 10 years or so and the airlines still won't give you a second look. (though you would be 100x better pilot than an Integrated cadet).


My advice in a nutshell:-
1.Rob a bank/talk to Oxford or CTC for funding
2. Complete Integrated Course as a proficient airliner operator with absolutely zero real experience to fall back on when it matters.


You will be a crap pilot but have a great job in the RHS of an airliner - happy days!! You will be a Captain long before taking the Noble route.


Good Luck


(you may sense bitterness in my post, there is! don't make the same mistakes as countless before you)

With reference to the above, have you considered applying to an airline scheme through an integrated school? Like BA FPP or EZY MPL?

And what mistakes would they be?

That's 5 years of REPAYMENTS...

The interest is a given, but whether you get a job or not, the repayments begin regardless

Erm, ok, hi thanks very much for the responses guys, I appreciate that. I obviously did plan on buying a share of an aircraft for fun at the end of the year to hours build.

Being no longer 18 and thinking the world s***s money in your direction and everything is handed to you I understand this will be a long process. Like I say, I've set aside the next 7.5 years, saving £10k a year or a loan to accelerate gaining the licences and intend to be "employed" making money from a flying job by then. I don't necessarily assume that will be for an Airline, in fact I can think of many more exciting flying jobs, but that's where the big wage is ultimately. I would prefer to do the job for the life it gives, the hours and enjoyment rather than the money.

But your post basically suggests that I will have no chance of ever flying for an airline, but very recently the likes of Jet 2 were screaming for FO no Type Rated with as little as 300 hours, and nowhere did it even mention the word "Jet".

Obviously I appreciate some people find jobs hard to acquire but I have worked hard to get everything I've got in life, no one has ever given me a penny. Without sounding soppy, two years ago I was about £5k in debt with no hope in life. Now I have no debt, professional qualifications and rent my own house. So I'm of the belief hard work pays off.

In summary, my real question would be, what is the best order to become fully qualified with an fATPL, is it cheaper to combine IR+CPL+ME or to do as many of the smaller ones first off my own back. Do I need bother a night and weather after my PPL if I'm going to have an IR in the future? And should I get an instructor rating with it just as back up? And finally, I live in Yorkshire, it seems pricey but is Multiflight at LBA any good??

Many thanks

It is possible to get a jet job as a modular fATPL without thousands of hours, though the opportunities are few and far between. Many of the light twin jobs, which are more of the market for modular, require much more experience than for the jets. It helps to works for these companys in another role beforehand.

The integrated schools are so dominant in recruitment, partly because they now have their own 'Old Boys' network, and have created a situation where everyone thinks you have to take out expensive integrated training with a couple of schoools to get a job. Boycott the integrated money making schemes, and the recruitment situation for modular will improve - but try telling that to little Johnny, who has just been to an open day and been sold the dream...

How many rubbish do we need to read? The 80% of freshly graduate pilots in Europe end up in FR! They don't give a **** where the pilot has studied! If u are not successful in FR you need to do something else! FI rating is a good way to start! Too many people want everything easy and fast and I cannot understand why people (specially youngs being in their 20s) want to get to the RHS as a first job! Live your life, enjoy a real path, know people, fly around, meet girls boys, go party, go to uni, get drunk... In summary enjoy your life and become a pilot too, don't go being 18 to OAA, CTC or FTE because you will be that captain complaining about aviation and life, that captain who hardly any FO wants to have!

Enjoy your life and fly, be modular!

Thankyou for your great reply. A welcome breath of fresh air considering ive spent a few nights awake wondering if I should go down this path with it costing so much and people being adamant there is no chance of a job at the end.

In response to another individual, my old CFI qualified Integrated by the time he was 24, at 27 he is still working in an ops room for the chance to be TR on a King Air. Go figure.

Call me naive...
 

I've done a fair bit of reading on PPRuNe and what I can gather is that there are currently some integrated guys out there without a job and then some modulars who have managed it (recently).

Surely this implies there are additional aspects above which route you take? I mean any old fool with a bit of cash and good training can stump up for an integrated course and come out certified, thats what the schools are very good at doing right?

Getting a high responsibility job in any industry takes skill and determination. Networking, leg work, presentation etc. I think if I was sat on the other side of the desk and someone pushed a CV at me that simply said "CTC" or "Oxford" fully expecting to land a job I'd tell ten where to go. I could be wrong but perhaps those life skills are what's missing for those guys that have all the qualifications and no job... From both routes. Just a thought.

h4r, sounds very sensible that.


I get the impression that (partly due to CTC's marketing and "official" statistics) there are some people naive enough to believe their mere association of training with them will open doors and wow recruiters/airline management.

A very small minority, but they do think that they won't actually have to try and get a job, it'll land on their plate, or maybe even they'll get to take their pick of jobs.



They're probably the same ones that think by turning up every day they'll automatically pass the exams without having to put in the hours of work every evening and weekend (not because ATPL theory is hard, but because there is so much to learn in such a short amount of time).



I'm hearing stories from friends that there are some people turning up to selections/interviews with no preparation, don't know anything about the company in question, or the number of aircraft/bases/routes/etc, aren't even faking desire to join said company.

Where do you see yourself in 5 years time is responded to with comments like "hopefully long-haul at BA/Virgin"... and they then wonder why they don't get offered a job, and blame it on the training organisation!



Whether you want to actually be joining the company you're interviewing for, or whether you'd rather be somewhere else, you pretend like you do. Very few people in life are able to get the job they really want right from the start, you need to work for it, build experience and hours.

But if you're applying for a small turboprop airline, you act like you want to be there, and like you want to stay there.
You know you don't, the interviewer(s) probably knows you don't, but you should never actually admit you don't.


If people aren't clever enough to work that out and do the research and genuinely try and get an offer for every job they apply for, then what the hell are they bothering for?! Like they'll land the job they really want with that kind of attitude and mentality.

Many of the airline "recruiters" go to these schools to supply their cadet intake. The candidates are from a known background with a training regime the airline is already familiar with (and likely involved with.)