Grotbag -

a) If you can afford integrated is it worth the extra money?
It depends who you ask. The answer from anybody who took the modular route is usually a resounding 'no'. I opted for integrated - so I honestly hope it is worth the money. I'm not going to say 'yes' because anything can happen, but I did my research before commencing my training over a year ago and I still believe now that my chances of employment with an airline are much higher than they would have been had I opted for modular. I've seen CTC's hold pool completely empty a few months ago, so hopefully by the next seasonal recruitment drive there won't be a long wait between finishing my training and getting into that right hand seat.

b) If you chose modular, could you fit training around seasonal or part time overseas work?
Yes. You can do pretty much whatever you want.

c) If you studied full time for a modular course instead of integrated what are the differences aside from one's residential?
You save a lot of money by doing a modular course. Other significant differences include your flying school's connection with airlines, and ultimately your employment prospects. Spend £50k on modular and attempt to make the money back with difficulty, or spend £100k on integrated with (in my opinion) a much better chance of clawing your money back in the short - medium term. You need to consider whether the extra £50k is worth a better chance of employment at the end of your training.

d) How much of a benefit is it to have a few years life experience and responsibility when applying for your first position in the industry?
I am mid-twenties at the moment - having had study and work experience (some relating to the industry) definitely helped me. The only other way it will really benefit me is that I can probably return to a previous employer if I can't find an airline job before I have to start paying the bills again. The selection for CTC involves an interview, so it is unlikely that I will have to sit an airline interview before placement with an airline.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

Hi guys

I was wondering whether anybody had considered doing their pilot training as a complete career change much later on? I do understand there is a whole spectrum of "what age is ideal" arguments.

I've only just started my A levels, so I suppose you could say time is on my side. I've decided I want to go to university, obviously to get a degree but also for the experience , friendships etc. I dont want to do the modular route because truth be told I don't see many opportunites afterwards. Going straight into integrated is out of the question because in doing so it would be very selfish on my part, as it wouldn't allow my 2 younger brothers the same chance at whatever they wanted to do.

Im probably being rather naive here I appreciate that, but how realistic would it be if I got a good career behind me, doing odd bits of flying, paying off debts and saving up cash, eventually to try and get on an integrated course? If I have a family by that point then most likely flying will be a hobby. I'm happy either way to be honest.


Any constructive advice and opinions would be appreciated. Go easy- it's my first post.:)

TML,

Sounds like a good idea. Nice to see you showing consideration for your two brothers.

I think you seem to have a good plan in place. No one knows, or should I say, no one wants to face up to the fact that we aren't through the hard times when it comes to the economy. The best place you can be is at uni studying something, making friends and all that lovely stuff.

I think your plan is realistic, it has a play it safe feel to it which I like. At the moment there aren't that many opportunities for modular guys but who knows what the market will be like when you've finished uni, modular might be a bit more desirable then. If not, go integrated.

@ TheMellowLife

Take this from a 26 year old guy who is only just starting out on his flying training (that's me, by the way!); do not worry about time. It is not essential to be in the right hand seat by 25 or you will have missed your chance.

Airlines today can pick and choose whoever they want, and by passing the aptitude tests and having good GCSE's, A-levels and a degree will simply put you in a bracked with a thousand other people. What will set you apart? Why should they pick you?

My advice would be to go to Uni (for me it was a great experience) but make sure you do a proper course i.e. not David Beckham studies or whatever it is nowadays.

In addition, join the University Air Squadron (UAS) as you can often get flying through that, similar to the Air Cadets. It will also set you apart from other people, and you may even like it so much that you join the regular RAF for a term and then come to airlines at a later date.

Either way, nobody knows what the airline industry will be like next year, let alone in three or five years, so just try to get yourself into a position to take advantage of any upturn in fortunes that may arise. And do your utmost to not rely on tens of thousands of punds of debt before you start!

Though that is just my opinion of course...!!

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Libertine, are you going modular?

I am indeed, but essentially for two main reasons;

1) I am 26 and have a decent, reasonably well paid job outside of aviation so it makes sense for me to learn modular over 3-4 years fitting around my current work, enabling me to keep any loan I eventually need to an absolute minimum.

It also means that, once I have all my licences, I am not stressing if it takes a year or two to find an airline placement.

2) Even if I wanted to, I don't have access to a £90k+ loan anyway, so integrated is not an option!

I think it depends entirely on your personal situation, and one man's horse is not necessarily another man's.

If you have access to the kind of funding required for an integrated course then I would certainly consider it, but do so very carefully and consider all avenues.

If it were me, I would say the best way is to try and get on the BA FPP, easyJet, FlyBe, Monarch or Qatar schemes that are run through CTC, Oxford and FTE seeing as they give the closest thing to a guaranteed job post-qualification without actually offering any guarantees. If I couldn't get on to one of those I would be quite nervous about having a £90k debt, no guaranteed job and the possibility of £30k more for a type rating.

But again, that's just me!

hurray a wannabie with some common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ssshhh, keep it quiet :oh: !

modular route?
 

Im looking into taking the modular with Oxford and worked it out to be around £40k excluding my PPL and hour building which is estimated to be around another £14 - £15k, this course with oxford includes; ATPL (A) theory, MEP, IR , CPL, and JOC if needed. do you guys think this is a good choice or not? i get confused by it all and could need some help and any suggestions with any other providers etc? thanks guys

As a long-term prune reader I've noticed that these discussions can be very one-sided. It's time to post and show a different perspective. Leenffc, don't get duped into going modular. Lots of people on here will try and brainwash you into making the wrong decision because they decided to try and do things on the cheap. Most of them are regretting their decision and simply want to bring you down with them.

I remember being in your situation, people tried to put me off the integrated route but I did my research and realised that you get what you pay for. At the end of the day you're investing in your future so why not give yourself the best chance? If you (or your parents) can afford it then you should stump up the funds, pay for the best training, buy a decent jet rating and get ahead of the game. You can get all concerned about morality but if you don't do it someone else will, that's how things work in the modern world.

I went to Oxford, brought a 738 rating and two years down the line I'm ready for Emirates. If you want to succeed don't cut corners, good luck.

@Jetlad;

I find the tone of that post a bit offensive if Im honest. Not sure you can be judging everyone by the same yardstick?!

Of all that you said, they key sentence was "If you (or your parents) can afford it then you should stump up the funds, pay for the best training"

Which essentially sums up your own privileged position. Unfortunately, not all of us have access to £90k and so the modular route is the only option. It is not that we regret not going integrated, as most of us on this post (myself included) are only just starting out on our journey, we are simply trying to help out others at a similar stage.

Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses of course, but try not to come across as quite such an arrogant arse next time you give it!

in all fairness, Jetlad does raise a point, if that money is at ones disposal then why not use it? No use flaming someone for having money. Though, that dosent mean integrated is the only route! ;)

You might be ready for EK but thats no garrantee that you will get it.

Also thats cost 150k at least including living expenses proberly more likely 175k. Call it over 200k

You will be a Captain before that gets payed off. And lord only knows what your going to do if you loose your medical or get payed off when the deliverys stop to make room for the new cheap cadets.

Where as you can be modular and do exactly the same route for 60k. Including selling your soul to the devil.

I don't disagree that, if you have the money, then you should consider integrated...I certainly would!

My issue was more that the accusation seemed to be that those of us who went modular wished we hadn't, which is just not true in many cases.

I can only base my views on personal experience and the experiences of those around me. Obviously people come through the modular route and end up where they want to be and I sincerely hope that those of you who've started training this way are successful.

Unfortunately I know too many people who have started their training under the illusion that they can get into the right hand seat of a shiny jet by taking the cheapest route. I don't care what you say, airlines do look for quality and continuity in training and unfortunately that rarely comes cheap. I'm not in a privileged position by any means, I mentioned the point about parents money because a lot of people do have the backing of their family and if you have this option then I think you should use it.

Obviously you may be happy to get any job flying, I wanted to get a return on my investment and I felt that the route I took provided me with the best chance in this highly competitive industry. I didn't want to fly some gaffer taped Jetstream around Eastern Europe because I knew it wouldn't provide me with the lifestyle I wanted. At the end of the day whether it be 60k or 100k we are still talking about a serious amount of cash and I still maintain that if you have it and are prepared to work hard then don't be afraid to use it.

And did it work?

It doesn't matter if it worked for Jetlad or not, this is a general discussion.
I believe that quality in training is very important not only for the obvious safety reasons but for your career, especially during your first steps. When I was looking at different schools (in Greece, where I live) to do my training most schools pushed for the modular route and I was convinced that this was the right move. However, when I started talking with graduates and current students 8 out 10 told me that integrated was the right choice, provided you have the money to complete the training. When I started my ATPL Integrated course with a school in Greece (the only one which advised me to do the integrated btw) I understood why most graduates advised me to do that. The integrated is a complete course and the school has much more responsibility towards the student. The quality of graduates from integrated courses (at least in Greece) is much better than that of graduates of modular courses and that is reflected in airline hiring. Integrated graduates accounted for around 75% of newly hired first officers (fresh out of the school) of Olympic Air in Greece, during 2011 and 2012.

I believe it is not just the flight skills that matter. Determination, standardisation, discipline are just as important and you definitely have a better chance in improving in those areas if you follow a well-structured programme. I am not suggesting that all integrated graduates are perfect and all modular ones are crap, I am just saying that the programme you choose is just another tool (like the choice of a particular school, training material, instructors etc) that can help you become a better pilot and professional or not. At the end of the day it is up to you.

The fact that 75% of new FO's are from integrated schools is nothing to do with the quality of the pilot, and everything to do with the fact that the schools have contracts with all the major airlines to provide a proportion of their new pilots, and the airlines can offset huge amounts of money against tax for training purposes when you come through an integrated school which is registered as a learning establishment.

The cold hard facts are that it is in the interest of both the integrated schools and the airlines to take on integrated pilots for these reasons, it has absolutely nothing to do with quality of pilot. Why else would the integrated schools be able to charge £70k+ for a set of licences which will cost you almost half that if you did a modular course?!

At the end of the day you pay for two things when going integrated; speed, and contacts. If you have the money to pay the premium then go for it, but dont kid yourself that it has anything to do with becoming a better pilot

Where did you get that :mad: about 75%?

I have line trained 12 FO's in the last year all of which are modular and all get payed more than flexi contract and ryanair and fly a crappy manual TP. And morethan likely will be LHS in under 3 years. earning I might add more than a Norweign 787 Captain

Just out of curiosity mad jock, what operator is that for?!

Good to hear that the modular fraternity are getting their fair shot!

The question I want to ask is, who ever went down the modular route, where are the majority of ye working now? Did the majority of ye manage to get into the right seat for an airline compared to the people that took on the intergrated??

Thinking about giving it a go over in Florida as I usually spent a few months of the winter each year galloping horses. I can expectect to make around $1k a week so that will certainly help me out.

Any advice??

Mad jock, your posts on here vary enormously, ranging from the very intelligent to the damn right farsical.

Go on then cost it out including living expenses and then add the compound interest you will have payed over 10 years.

I fly with these poor sods that have that much debt.

Just to help out with no capital pay back just compound.

80k at 5% interest and 10 years is 130k

110k is 180k

And 130k is 210k.

Now 5% is a bloody cheap interest rate.

Whats the current rate for an intergrated course? Shall we be nice and say 70k?

Living for 18 months at 1k a month which is pretty low including accom.

So thats 88k so far.

Now add in a type rating say 30k for that and a couple of months accom so another 2k

So we are up at 120k is that unreasonable?

120k at 5% and 10 years is 1300 a month and 150k payed back

the same with 6% is 1332 a month and 160k payed back.

7% is 1380 a month and 166k payed back.

Now before tax thats going to translate into I will just times it by 1.3 to give a rought estimate.

5% 195k
6% 208k
7% 215k

So I ain't to far off am I?

Now modular shall we call it 80k including type rating? which i might add is high but trying to play fair here by putting Intergrated costs low and modular as high.

That at 7% over 10 years would be 920 a month and 110k repayed and 143k before tax and 143 after so 72k saving but in reall life I would expect it to be over 85k if not 100k.

In my experence its actually the opersite, the smaller mod schools actually proved the better quality pilots. Exeter for example produce extremely good capable pilots and would be on the top of any CV pile that I looked at. Mind you if you look at the list of instructors that work there its not suprising.

But being a good pilot is not what some companys are looking for. They want a known quanity which fits thier training programs. Handling and PIC skills arn't required because they will be sitting next to someone for years who has the PIC skills. And they are trained to work in an automated managed cockpit. They are the ones that like the mentored schemes through the schools.

I payed 35k for my training and had a year as an instructor. This isn't uncommon in the other Captains I work with we all got LHS in 2-3 years and have been working on a Captains wage for the last 7 without paying off any loans in fact most of us have cleared our morgages as well.

A couple of mates in flybe are in a regional base that they want with 4.5k disposable a month. It might not be a fancy jet, it might go tech alot, they might have to put up with flying with MPL's. But they are home most nights and don't have to commute.

Mad_jock, Which Exeter school are you talking about? I'm asking because I live close by and I've heard some fantastic reviews of the training providers there.

Aviation is really screwing with my head. Don't know where to go. I've also looked at the PATH program up north which looks promising too.

:ugh:

I don't have anything to do with them apart from work and train their product to fly crappy turboprops post license issue

Airways is the one that stands out. But I must admit I haven't heard of anything bad about the others either.

Just looking at the website I see they now do PPL's who are going to become commercial. That to me would seem like a extremely good investment even if it costs a bit more than going to FL to get your PPL.

Get everything done in the same school to keep that box ticked. And I am pretty sure there PPL will be old school with no airline ops :mad:. Giving you a good foundation for the rest of your life.

Let me give you another snapshot of actual figures from a large "integrated" flying school. In this example, around 20 graduates this year alone.

£69,000 flying course (bond)
£10,000 Foundation course.
£500 per month living costs (accom already included) £8000
£2000 (discretionary living costs)
£2000 (insurances and up front capital item costs)
£0 Type rating
£0 MCC Jet orientation course. (included with bond costs)
Interest rate for bank borrowing 3% (variable) (£227 p/m initially)

Total £91,000.

Refund of previous flying (foundation course) credit -£3000 (varies on performance)

Refund of bond during first 7 months of airline placement £8400.

Net total £79,600.

Including airbus type rating and 500 hours of airbus flying time (on around £2000 p/m (nett) back to the individual.) Employment contract dovetailed at end of 7 month placement period of around 38K rising to 50K about 9 months later (with 1000 hours on type).

These are accurate figures for this example and I have over 20 such examples this year alone.

We are not discussing the mentored schemes Bealzebub.

This is purely about the hit that self financed students are taking by going intergrated.

Your figures just show the stupidity of doing intergrated unless its through a mentored company scheme.

I fully agree if you can get on one of these schemes go for it.

But all you are doing self financing is subsidising the few airlines who prefer that product.

Far from showing how good intergrated is it just shows you how stupid you would need to be to self finance.

Of course. Because until you have paid it, you are not that product.

By the way it is still integrated and not intergrated. ;)

So paying over 200k to be an unemployable product just so a few airlines can get what they want.

Outstanding life choice, paying 110k so someone else can get a job. These cadets you like really must be thick as :mad:.

200k?
Where did you pluck that number from?

To become an A320 F/O at the figures I have shown would hardly group those cadets in to the category you so politely describe. Even if it did, they can all write a paragraph without spelling every other word incorrectly.

These forums are about people making choices. it seems reasonable they should be given balanced information.

If you see the loan workings. You can see that self financing over 10 years of loan.

And no the cadets are the sensible ones and to be honest should be the only ones doing such courses.

The thick as :mad: products are the self financing taking such huge debt load without any tenious link to a job afterwards.

And yes the forums are for making choices which is why constant harping back to how good the company schemes are for that those that get them really isn't helping self financing students see the implications of what they are signing up to.

Yes if you get on a comany mentored/sponsored scheme intergrated is fine and dandy and crack on.

If you are self financed you are subsidising airlines training schemes which you haven't got a hope in working for. While at the same time I might add cutting off access to many others.

All very valid points Mad Jock but I guess one individual's dream is another person's nightmare. Flying interests all of us for many reasons, we all share a passion for the sky etc etc but after a while is that enough? Some people take the rose tinted specs off and look at the profession more realistically. All the examples of success you've cited here don't really inspire me. Like many of my peers I looked at flying as a decent career proposition and I felt that paying for a quality training product would be the best way of getting where I wanted quickly. Obviously I paid more and obviously not everyone can afford that, that's not the debate. I'm arguing the corner for those that could afford it, coughed up, worked hard and achieved what they wanted without a mentorship. I resent being branded a naive fool and I think you need to be a little less blinkered with your views. It really doesn't paint the modular fraternity you so passionately represent in the best light.

Mad Jock, I am not concerned about your personal training background, I am sure people could not care less.

Firstly, surely you must have better things to do than post on here, as a man coming on with nearly 7000 posts claiming to be some sort of successful sage rings alarm bells, to be honest I have massive doubts with regards to your flying background, of which the details you present are ambiguous at best. Surely a man who claims to be as experienced as yourself has better things to do than come on here and aggressively attempt to poison a trainee into a particularly path.

As you stated "The thick as :mad: products are the self financing taking such huge debt load without any tenious link to a job afterwards." This proves my point here, you speak in aggressive tones continuously. The irony here is that the majority of this products which you refer are doing substantially better than yourself and are not flying around in "some crappy manual turboprop" with no prospects.

I am going to do you a favour and offer you career advice, tailored specifically. From your posts it is apparent that even after 6800 odd of them, you are still unable to coherently cobble together a sentence, your writing, particularly your spelling is abysmal and quite frankly my 5 year old son could do a better job. Really, what must any potential new employer think when you apply for a job? No wonder you are so bitter about your current position. As everybody else seems to be also pointing out your maths is more mathemagic than mathematic, I would advise you to seek some help in improving these essential skills.

If I was you I would accept that I have done better than expected, lay off here, relax and enjoy a peaceful existence.

Maths is fine thanks, well enough to get through a BEng.

Yes I am crap at spelling and have been since graduating from remedial English aged 13.

For any that want to check the maths and compound interest please check

Fool.co.uk: Stock Investing Advice | Stock Research

For an online loan calcuator. Run a load of numbers see how the figures will really stab you in the wallet for years to come.

And have a bloody good think.

To be honest the marority arn't doing better especially over the last 4 years because basically they are unemployed and I ain't what ever heap I fly. Which BTW we are getting more and more desperate to buy a dead type rating on just for hours.

Mind you a one post wonder.

So reverand stick to god bothering and leave the professional advice out.

Or is it a standard thing in religion over the centurys that you want to makes sure the masses don't get to learn the truth?

I once worked at a school that provided both Integrated and Modular. I worked in "sales", and we pushed the integrated program quite a bit... the reason being that the integrated course was less flying hours but had a higher pricetag since it was supposedly "better training." More expensive but less flying hours... think about that for a minute. The school made a larger profit on integrated students.

Were the integrated students better pilots? No, they received the same instructors, same aircraft, and roughly the same syllabus and used the same examiners and were tested to the same standards...but they were treated a little differently since they paid more.

To be fair Fokkergirl they were are taught in the classroom full time which adds to the cost of the course. I don't disagree it would still have been a larger profit. But a full time course is more expensive in resources in teaching rooms etc and staff.

For some this is the only way they could pass the theory exams so would be a valid reason for choosing that option.

At the time, we also offered modular students full time ATPL theory at considerable cost (in fact I thought that it was so expensive, I was surprised whenever modular students bought the course), but there was no secret in the sales office that integrated generated more profit.

But.....
 

I think what is being missed here is that the market is still on it's arse and from experience, when you finish modular training (as I did) with minimum hours, even buying a type rating won't get you into a job easily.
So, don't forget to bolt on some more hour building and maybe even a one or two LPC renewals before you land a job.. :)

I'd still never go down the integrated route even though it was a roller coaster of a ride before I finally found a job..

If you dont mind me asking ftimesf, why do you say you would never go integrated? Is that finance related, or a conscious decision of choice?