University? or not? : Aviation Technology With Pilot Studies
 

I'm currently a 3rd year student at Leeds Uni, studying aviation technology with pilot studies.
A note to all wannabes on the discussion of uni or not? I say go to uni, the course i'm doing is great. I now know about 50 soon to be pilots and have nearly gained my ppl (Cleveland flying school, great instructors!!!!) as part of my course! I've learnt so much that has really prepared me for an airline career. I got a bursary from the uni, it was £1,500 towards my ppl. I also covered a lot of the atpl syllabus in further depth than needed, not to mention learing how to start an airline. One thing i really enjoyed was designing an aircraft and flying it on a simulator! I learnt alot of engineering and management. One thing this course does test, is to see if an aviation career is for you, one of my friends on my course has now decided he would rather be a long jumper! Also there are a few students learning to fly an A380:E(Dissertation)!!!

To now gain a bursary at leeds you need AAA:ugh: in your A-levels, so school is important. I did geography, physics and design, and found these a great help on the course. I hated maths and that's why i didn't study it at A-level. I got to leeds and was taught maths to a very high standard, so i didn't miss out.

You don't need to do an aviation related degree, but if flyings your passion then why wouldn't you? Hopefully when i return from going round the world building hours, i'll know plently of pilots flying for airlines. Which can help when trying to get a job:ok:. GO to UNI!

Is English your first language?

If so, a damning indictment of the current rigour of the public education system.

WWW

They must have bucked their ideas up from before then, I was in the first year of that course and although I only was there for 6 months it was bloody awful. Supply and demand, at that time i got in with CDD!

Horgy

When I was there, they never gave us the idea of advertising on pprune for them.

Good idea anyway! :ok:

Overall, the course does give students a good understanding and knowledge. It can provide a stepping stone towards the career so, I would add to the advert and recommend the course.

University Advert
 

Pilotho, i suppose it does sound like an advert, LOL. Just trying to inspire some youngsters!:confused:

Leeds aviation degree advert
 

Just found this and yes it is was? a great course if you want to do a uni degree with aviation. but some of the lecturers are rubbish, do not have a clue, made up by fact that flying training at cleveland flying is brilliant and the only one that knows anything about flying is doc ed but just heard he is not going to teach us any more:{ so in my view this course is going downhill

Leeds was my 1st choice, Salford my 2nd both offering the same av tech w/ps course.

Flunked my A levels (C,D,U) an could only by the skin of my teeth get into Salford although from what I've heard from many people it may have been a blessing in diguise.

Aviation technology
 

I agree, not only does the degree serve you in case things don't go to plan, but it also helps with the ATPL's- should you go down the route.

If you're young get a degree,whether Aviation based or not, either way it looks much better on the CV.

I'm still not sure, but I think I will give Uni a miss. It sounds good fun (and I don't want to miss out on the social side) but if after 3 years you have a PPL, at CTC or Oxford for instance you could have an ATPL in half that time. I know that sounds abit naive, putting all your eggs in one basket and all that, but isnt it also 3 years lower down a seniority list?

The other thing is the increased cost.

Do you know how much airlines like specific aviation degrees? i.e does it make you more employable- or more favorable for promotion to say management maybe later in your career?


Thanks

I agree the choice whether to go to uni is a tough one. Either can just apply for a flying school, and I suppose kind of put all your eggs in one basket...or you could go to uni. I only decided relatively last minute that I wanted to go to uni. For me, I didn't want to just rely only on flying and I wanted to give myself better opportunities. To be fair I did choose to study an aviation related degree and out of the Leeds course and air transport management at Loughborough I chose the latter. Ultimately what ever you choose it's your choice and just stick with it.

I'm at Salford just about to start the 3rd and (hopefully!) final year of the Aircraft Engineering with Pilot Studies degree. Sure, not all of the lectures are riveting, and its certainly not an easy option if you want to pass with a good grade, but i feel i will come out of it with a good foundation of knowledge of the aviation industry, a PPL from Ravenair at around half the price it would normally cost (subject to a means tested bursary) and a range of career options still available. Don't get me wrong, I am intent on becoming a commercial pilot, but it offers that bit of security should employment prospects in the airlines take a turn for the worse at just the wrong moment.

I'm now in the process of deciding what route to take towards an ATPL after graduating, something which the time spent at uni has allowed me to research fairly thoroughly. And what's more I'm fairly confident that the grounding in ATPL theory I have received at Salford from, amongst other lecturers, an experienced 757 captain and current CPL examiner, will mean that a good chunk of the ATPL syllabus will be revision for me, at least the basics anyway. Hence, I'll be able to focus more attention on the bits I find difficult.

The downsides - yes it takes longer to reach the ultimate goal, it adds to the overall cost, and the social life in my experience (although I must say I'm living with my parents rather than in halls of residence) isn't a shaddow of the stereotypical student partying every night and coming in at all hours drunk and merry - but hey, that can all wait 'til i'm a F/O right?! ;). But I think overall, especially for those who are prepared to be patient and who would like to feel they are well prepared for a career as a pilot (or engineer of course), this is a good path to go down before committing everything to a FTO with no guarantee of a job at the end of it. I'm not saying it suits everyone, and of course I can't say everything will go to plan as I've not even finished the degree yet, let alone secured a place with a good FTO, but I hope this is of some help to anyone who is trying to make that decision if a degree would be right for them.

ATPL modules at UNI?
 

i find it difficult to understand how ''universities'' offer the ATPL modules at degree level ..... the ATPL modules are only at GCSE level!

That's debatable. Exactly what about the ATPL modules are at GCSE level? Do you honestly reckon that the average GCSE student would be able to pass them with ease?

GCSE students (i.e. under 16's) are forced by law to stay in school! hence as you say ''most GCSE students would struggle with the ATPL modules" most of the students in my class at 16 could not give a rats backside about what was being taught - its not really the same with ATPL students who have invested time and money and really want to succeed in becomming pilots.

if you think human performance, operational procedures, IFR comms, VFR comms, airlaw (amoungst others) are at degree level then you clearly havent tried studying for advanced aerodynamics 2 or perhaps structural analysis on an engineering degree course?

actually GCSE Physics and Maths (certainly A-Level) was a lot harder than say Radio Nav or GNAV. I know students in my ATPL class who prepared for the exams simply by using the database questions - i had to work much harder for my GCSE's and A-levels

Thats my view anyway mate - im not trying to put anyone off a ''pilots studies degree''

No, I haven't studied for an engineering degree course because I'm studying A levels, so not at that stage quite yet. Being relatively fresh out of GCSEs, I find the PPL syllabus a slightly higher level than GCSE maths and physics, though they are my strong subjects. A level maths and physics is certainly harder theory wise (than what I've seen of ATPL modules) but that's the thing - theory wise. There is probably more to remember for the ATPL modules, it's more of a case of memory than having to apply complex theories, which is what A level maths is more about.

I have no opinion on these degrees and I plan on keeping my studies and my pilot training completely seperate. I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket no matter how much I like flying!

with regards to how ATPL module could be a degree. i think that degrees are tailored to a certain profession and so is making the student adapt to the industry or job. so that's my view as to how it could be offered at the degree level.

the level of academia required for ATPL groundschool is definetly higher than GCSE however. i don't really know why the minimum requirements are only at GCSEs level but nevermind, i don't make the rules. i certainly don't recall integration and differentiation at GCSE. you don't have to carry out these calculations but without the knowledge, i dont see how someone could fully understand what is going on. oh, i am referring to the study of INS for the above.

overall, it is quantity rather than difficulty thats the main challenge but i definetly think the level is about A level standard. come to think of it, you have to be 18 to get a CPL/IR anyway, so a school leaver would have to wait a couple of years.

i got an offer here but turned it down to do an M.eng in aerospace engineering at Bath Uni from september..

although now im contemplating fleet air arm..

my friend did that course, went to CTC then passed and is now JOC/Line Training with B A

a few from his course made it and a few didnt..

I don't know about anyone else but I have never been told "I'm sorry - we'd like to teach you about ATPL theory but since you're at university now its too easy so you'll have to keep guessing".

No, the ATPL subjects are not inherently difficult but try cramming them in amongst advanced thermodynamics, engineering materials, aerofluid dynamics, flight mechanics, and all the other "ics" and, as anyone who has done an engineering degree will tell you, its not easy! After the first year the number of students on my course was whittled down from 16 to 9 - the ones who left were all very intelligent, talented people, but they just couldn't manage the workload.

That is how the course is deliberately designed. Obtaining a degree in such a course proves to the likes of OAA, CTC etc that, aside from being able to absorb the material, you are capable of committing yourself to an intensive and challenging course for a significant period of time, having invested your own money and time in your ambitions. Isn't this exactly the sort of low-risk prospective student they are looking for?

No. They'll put you through exactly the same assessments as everybody else and only use the results from their own tests in their decision. All it might do is help you get through stage 1 at CTC.

Why?
 

A cynic regarding the benefits of a modern degree at the best of times, I can't help but question why anyone would want to waste 3 years of their lives on pre-entry training for a profession that ultimately has no pre-entry requirements (aside from the obvious industry demanded qualifications).

If you need ammunition to pass entry exams for CTC et al, why not just go for a Duke of Edinburgh award - you'll find it a quicker and significantly cheaper option. Or for that matter why not join the air cadets (and get some free flying to boot).

Ultimately, in my view, should the airline dream go belly up, your investment will go as far as every other graduate's in so far as warranting a junior office job for 16K per year (pretty well as much as a capable school leaver might expect). Lets face it, nowadays a degree is part of the job description for the most mundane of jobs.

The number of 18 year olds going through the saussage factory are testament to the requirement for this sort of evidence of commitment (i.e. there is no requirement at all). As has been mentioned already, the "mandatory" training is costly enough, let alone considering adding the costs of a university education to the total. It might just be that credit conditions in the future preclude banks from lending further (seriously large) sums to individuals already up to their eyeballs in debt.

In other words, if you want a crack at being a pilot, get stuck in now. Get your parents, grandparents, parents' friends, teachers and anyone else you can to grill you on the obvious questions, (if you really want it, you'll have picked up as much info as you need from the internet, papers, books etc.). Walk into the interviews confident and hit the ground running. Before you know it you'll be solo in a light aircraft and then...who knows.

A thought or two, as somebody who has been through most of these systems and taught on a few.

Firstly do a degree because you want a degree - for the challenge, the career options it offers, or from a sheer fascination with the subject. Don't do it as a backup, or because somebody's told you that doing a degree is a good idea, or to keep your parents happy.

All degrees are not equal. For example, whilst the Salford degree mentioned is accredited by the Royal Aeronautical Society (and thus allows you to qualify as a Chartered Engineer), the Leeds degree isn't, and won't. Both are probably fine if you are, say, considering trying to become an airline pilot then using the degree as a basis for moving into technical management, but if you'd like to go into aircraft design only one is likely to be useful.

What's the difference between CPL or ATPL exams and a degree? Just about everything - a degree is about deep understanding of a subject and the ability to use that information to solve problems - it tends to be examined through project work, mathematical examinations, or perhaps by essays - either ongoing or in timed examinations. An ATPL on the other hand is about learning a large amount of material and reproducing it in multiple choice examinations - only a certain amount of calculation is required (for example in navigation) and that tends to be fairly formulaic. This is not to denegrate a tough study task, but the requirements are very different to those for a degree.

Speaking for myself, I have degree level and flying qualifications, and between them find a great deal of job satisfaction (and I'm pretty well paid too!). I think that the engineering qualifications and experience make me a better pilot, and the flying qualifications and experience make me a better aeronautical engineer. However, neither is essential to the other and both were a lot of work if I didn't enjoy them for themselves, rather than just as an add-on.

G

Greenfreddie,

I agree/disagree with your comment on University degree. It really deppends on the course.

There are many courses at University that are a complete waste of time, and will most likely get you a 16k job however there are many jobs out there that give you the opportunity to make some big bucks i.e accountants, lawyers, doctors etc.

I personally believe that the Aviation Technology With Pilot Studies course is a waste of time. If your wanting to get a degree, do your degree in somehting else other than flight training, this will give you a backup and a bit more experience in different areas.

If you don't fancy doing any other courses, just do the ATPL course as usual and ignore the degree. It costs too much time, effort and money to study a course that isn't really goign to give you an advantage, especially in an industry that bases a lot of it's selection on the candidates skill, not necessarily qualifications.


If your in Scotland, I would highly recommend going for a degree because it won't cost you a penny.

Sorry to be negative (this is pprune after all!) but after looking over the course syllabus this reeks of a mickey mouse degree. In the first year a compulsory module is PPL theory - sixteen year old kids on the RAF scholarships can ace these exams after a night of cramming. The rest of the three years seems quite close to the ATPL syllabus, but it shouldn't take three years to do something that others do in two whilst working a full-time job.

A key giveaway is that its from the faculty of engineering at a UK university. You may or not be aware, but a lot of engineering departments are closing or under threat of closure in the UK in this new age of fee based courses. They simply don't attract enough students and therefore course fees to justify their cost to the university. The solution is to invent some highly popular degree (e.g. Football engineering) that is a solid revenue stream.

The department where I work (albeit in the US) started a 'broadcast meteorology' course a few years back which was heavily subscribed and a real money spinner for the university. It was essentially a taught class of PPL Met with 'gee whiz' pictures and touchy-feely theatre classes. The problem came after the first lot had graduated, none of them got jobs in TV/radio since they had a shallow knowledge of meteorology. Instead the jobs went to the normal meteorology graduates. Word got back to the current crop of first year students (undergrads in US don't 'declare their major' until the second year for some odd reason) and enrollment dropped to zero. We no longer have this program.

If you want to study ATPL theory, buy the books and do it in your spare time. If you want to go to university, pick a 'proper' degree with real career prospects based on your interests and skills. Don't make the mistake of a half-arsed attempt at both at the same time as there are no short cuts and it'll hurt you in the long run.

Again, sorry to be so negative, I'm not trying to insult any of you or your aspirations, but I work closer to the other end of university courses and this course seems like a poor deal.

Cheers,

Gareth.

Yes, I think that's worried much of the rest of the UK University community also - which is presumably why nobody's tried to copy the Leeds course, nor has it any form of external body accreditation. That said, you can teach all of the subjects on the ATPL to a much higher level and it might look the same from the outside.


Yes, but it's a BSc not a BEng - this is NOT an engineering degree.

If it's a solid engineering course, why not?

This is the real problem, and it happens in the UK also. A university gets internal approval to run a sexy sounding course - but doesn't really have the world class brains in-house to deliver it. This is arguably fraudulent behaviour, but it certainly happens in the UK. Pick a random university offering, for example, a motorsport engineering degree, and see how many staff you can find who have actually worked in the motorsports industry designing/testing/building race cars. Sadly the same is true with some aero degrees.

Actually JAR-FCL killed that off, you have to be registered with a formal training provider. But yes, you can do it part time for a lot cheaper than going to university.

Absolutely.

Also true, but some of these specialist courses are still pretty good and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. For example, the couple using PPL groundschool as a module have found it a pretty good imported package of general aeronautical knowledge, so if that's 1/12th of an academic year, it's not a bad approach.

G

Hi,

Just ,my two cents about this matter. I have just graduated form the Leeds course, aviation technology with Pilot studies.

Firstly I a both a student member of IMECHE and RAES, which means that I think it must be accredited in some way as i had to get my application stamped from my school in Leeds.

Secondly, we did study some rubbish that mirrored the ATPLs but we would then sit in thermodynamics, measurement and control, mathematics for process engineers and fluid mechanics lectures with chemical engineers and mining engineers- all doing BEng degrees. We had aerodynamics and computational fluid mechanics by ourselves as this was more relevent to our chosen field.

To call it a mickey mouse degree is slightly harsh dont you think? Either way I would have much rather spent 3 years at Leeds any day over the ghetto that is Salford, I live in south London by the way, and we got our fair share of those.

Ive just started my ATPLs distance learning at london Met, 23rd June, and am sitting my exams on the 4th August. Theres absolutley no way that I could be ready for these exams, Aircraft general, performance and P of F without the invaluable knowledge gained from the 3 year degree I just did. Im working full time as well at the moment so it can be done.

All i can say s dont knock it before youve tried it- go for an open day and check it out, if it feels like a mickey mouse degree then dont do it. oh and i got my PPl with the at the cost of £3300. Bargain eh.

Cheers.

Oh and if it all goes tits up with the pilot career- use the "mickey mouse degree" like one friend of mine who has gone to go work for NATS. 21 years old and on 26K starting salary. Not bad for recent graduate...

Not really anything amazing to shout about, I know several friends who are making well over 30K after recently graduating AND can work in more than one area of study.

If you have just graduated from Leeds Aviation then well done and you are lucky because the course has changed quite a bit since it first started (for the worse in my view) and the quality of lecturers not what it was as some of best, who actually had flying experiance or have worked for airlines, have now left or not had their posts renewed.

SW1, first of all congratulations on your degree. I hope that you enjoyed your course and time at uni and wish you the best in the future.

I said it 'reeks' of a M.Mouse degree (note I didn't say it was!) as I work as a researcher at a US university (born, raised and educated in the UK, thankfully) and I see the UK system rapidly driving towards that in the US. At the core of it, US universities are a business, someone told me once it was the second biggest sector of their economy, which seems believable. Anywho, in a lot of instances departments start up fashionable degrees for a quick input of cash, especially if they are struggling with intake which mathematical or natural sciences generally do. Something pilot related seems like a good choice due to the prevelance of 18 yrs willing to give away mum and dads cash on this forum.

As far as I remember all degrees at public universities in the UK are accredited and held to the national standard by some oversight agency, the name of which escapes me, so anyone completing the course will have an accredited degree. However I would be careful when arguing "guilt by association" when trying to promote your individual qualifications. For instance, during my university career I have taken courses alongside chemists, but that doesn't mean I have a chemistry degree or even know anything about chemistry.

I would caution waving membership of 'professional' societies about. Your uni may have rubberstamped something, but that is generally just to say you are full-time student and you get a discount. It turns out for the two you list I am eligable to join; the IMECHE since I have a "UK Maths, Physics or other relevant Science degree" and the RAES because I have an honours degree and 66 quid. I'm not an aeronautical engineer.....


Call me cynical if you like, but I am privvy to lots of what is going on the university side of things and I have seen what can happen to people who go into a poorly organized and poorly taught degree. My comments are trying to help make people aware of the issues surrounding these new and highly specialized subject and make sure they consider what they are going to commit 3 years of their lives and 12,000 quid to. There are lots of choices out there so use your head and heart in the decision.

Cheers,

Gareth.

Sorry SW1 but you have been misled badly. Whilst Leeds is generally a good university and many of it's courses are accredited by one of more of the Engineering institutions; looking on the ECUK website it is clear that the only RAeS accredited courses at Leeds are Aeronautical and Aerospace Engineering at BEng and MEng and you are highly unlikely to get beyond student membership of either institution without substantial extra study. It's a real degree - in that it's awarded by an accredited degree granting institution, but that doesn't give it any particular credibility within the aircraft industry. Equally I've no doubt that it's helped prepare for the ATPLs - but there are plenty of people who have passed them without more than a couple of GCSEs.

Like gfunk I've spent a lot of time around universities - I teach specialist stuff on several degree programmes, although most of my work is aeronautical research. I'm also a Chartered Engineer and full Member of both the RAeS and IMechE. I agree with him entirely.

G

It would be nice to get some recent feedback from those of you on the course now or who have graduated in the past, not those with there own institutes to promote etc.What are you doing now? Did it open any doors? This course has been running from some 4-5 year now so there must be quite a few graduates out there by now. I have heard that there have been some changes to the course and that these have not been popular.

I'm now on my 3rd year of Av tech and although some parts of the course do seem mikey mouse (they no longer acredit PPL exams alongside the degree) it has given me a much needed deep understanding of practically every aspect of aviation. Although I have to admit it is a little biased towards commercial pilots rather than military.

For one of my modules, a group of 6 of us have to write our own AOC for an airline with the only specification being: jersey airport must be a stop off point.

This has required us to trawl through endless pages of JAR-OPS (and now EU-OPS) which I have to say is mind numbingly boring but the knowledge gained is ESSENTIAL for a top quality pilot (coupled with flying experience of course) which is all I ever want to be.

Scotteo,

Are you at Salford? One of your lecturers is a buffoon as far as i'm concerned. If he's the one i'm thinking of, he is the one who set you that AOC task, and it's garbage. The idea of forming an airline is nice, but to dictate a route (as the previous year had to do) is just silly. I am friends with someone who had to do this, and they had to run a route from the Isle of Man (which is already oversubscribed) and were told which aircraft type to us (for which performance data was hard to come by). You'll just end up ripping off a suite of manuals from Ryanair/Easyjet/Thomson/*Insert airline here who someone knows works for*

Horgy

Graduated from Leeds BSc Av Technology w/ management (I had my PPL before applying) summer 2006

Now frozen ATPL, RHS on a heavy turboprop flying night freight, and getting paid for it!

Probably wouldnt do the degree again in hindsight (although made a lot of good friends, had a great time at leeds etc) but it HAS got me where i wanted to be.

Form your own opinions.

Matty

Graduated Leeds in 2005 (first group of graduates), I've been at Loganair a while which is one of the better gigs around in my opinion. quite a mix of jobs for the others on the course: of the 20 that graduated (not inc. 2 management students)

1 @ Loganair (me, after a couple of seasons instructing SEP)
3 @ BA Cityflyer
1 @ First Choice
1 @ Monarch
1 @ DHL
1 @ Highland Airways
1 @ Flybe
2 in HM Royal air force 1 FJ & 1 Multi

Of the rest, there's 1 in ops at Eastern (doing the training on the side), 1 at Virgin in ops. 2 still plugging away doing training and the rest decided to fly for fun and do other things to pay for it! Quite a varied mix i'm sure you will agree, of those of us who went into further training it was about a 50/50 modular/integrated split. Good times at Leeds were had by all, however we were the guinea pig year and only a small group.

As someone who was involved in setting up the original aviation technolgy degree at Leeds, which was quite a gamble at the time, and running it for a couple of years, it is really good to see these success stories. I wish all you guys and gals all the best. I did enjoy my time teaching subjects like Aircraft Performance and Aviation technology and some of the final year projects were fun too. Drop in and see me at DTV for a chat where I am still helping to train Leeds students with Cleveland Flying School, even if the University no longer requires my teaching services.

Hi Ed :ok:

Hi Dr H! Still makes me chuckle remembering the explanation on Dutch roll.....

Hi Ed! Hope you and DR are having fun up in Teesside!

Sadly DR passed away on 16/05/21.

Also JT is now on that Aviation course. I found her to be a massive bully.
Do your research before you apply.