Are A levels a definate requirement?
 

Hello fellow Ppruners!

I am currently 16 and will be 17 on the 27th November. I will shortly receive the results for my GSCE examinations. Flying commercially is something i definately want do without a doubt, i have had a trial lesson and this confirmed my wish to fulfil my dream.

I am thinking about going onto an integrated flight training scheme whereby they only require you to be 17 years of age and have had 5 GCSE passes (C or above) preferably in maths and physics. Without tempting fate too much i think i can safely say i will have fulfilled these requirements by November 27th 2005.

If i were to be succesful in obtaning a class one medical and passing their selection do you think it would be wise to go onto the course without having done any a levels? How important is having done a levels? Are they a requirement for employment with airlines and also do they help you with the atpl theory work?

I know many of you will talk about the issues of maturity but i feel i am a mature person for my age and will continue to develop this if i were to participate in the course.

The reason why i am keen to skip a levels is because i want to start flying commercially as soon as possible and am not sure if a levels would be an unnecessary waste of 2 years.

Your views will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Arpan

I think that A-levels certainly wouldn't harm your ability to take in the ATPL ground school though...

Although A levels may not be necessary, bear in mind that if anything should happen which prevents you from flying commercially, or your'e not able to find a job as a pilot, A levels would almost certainly be advantageous if you want to choose a different career.

2 years of A levels would make you more employable in any future career, allow you to persue a university education if for some reason you don't end up flying (be it financial/medical or another reason) and you could always use those 2 years to gain a PPL before going onto a commercial course.

Although you're dead set on avaiation at the moment situations can change and not taking any A levels would leave you in a worse position.

Just something to think about. Also, in 2 years time you'd be older, wiser and probably more responsible about the course and the financial commitment you're about to make.

Not sure that A-Levels are particularly sought after by the majority of airlines once you are qualified however some of the larger airlines may be put off if you lack A-Levels and experience. At the end of the day anything that gives you an advantage over others is a bonus and A-Levels certainly wouldn't go amiss on your flying CV.

As for the ATPL theory I'm not so sure that A-Levels would be much benefit really. The standard of learning required to pass is GCSE A-C level. I only have GCSE's and although it was difficult at first to grasp some of the ATPL calculations I didn't really have too many problems. The main concern in ATPL theory is remembering the bulk of information.


If the aviation career didn't work out for whatever reason (medical or otherwise) I'm not too sure that A-Levels alone are going to put you much further ahead unless you have a degree under your belt. Therefore, if you're going to study for another two years you would probably be wise to extend to university afterwards. Bet you like the idea of that eh? ;)

VFE.

A-levels are not required of qualified pilots by airlines, but sometimes they are required of candidates for self-sponsored airline training schemes. If you are contemplating this route (CTC and similar), you should check the websites of the airlines and training providers concerned - though, on re-reading your post, I see you may have already done that.

In any case, recruitment is a competitive process, and, where experience is lacking, acadmic qualifications are one of the few tools at your disposal to distinguish yourself from your competitors. That said, there is absolutely no need to have A-levels at all; you certainly won't need them in preparation for ATPL exams! If you do decide to take A-levels, don't worry overmuch about the subjects. There is no need to take Maths and Physics (or any other science) simply because you are interested in aviation. Instead, take subjects that interest you and in which you are likely to give your best effort - and if that's Maths and Physics, great. If it's Media Studies and Philosophy, that's also great - as long as the results are good.

Scroggs

Thank you for all your comments thus far. Anyone have any more opinions/views?

I’d do the A levels if I were you.

As Scroggs said, you need something to make your CV stand out - if you’ve got no work experience to talk about, it will have to be qualifications. The more the merrier!

I’d also recommend doing them as a ‘plan B’ in case you ever lose your medical. It happens more than you might think, and it would be nice to have some bits of paper to fall back on in case you have to apply for ‘normal’ jobs.

(I found A level physics quite useful for the ATPLs by the way).

I am about to start my second year of A levels and am awaiting results of my 1st year (probably D's and C's, nothing special). I will certainly start my A2's but if the opportunity arises ie. I get a place on Air Atlantique, or my parents hand over the family fortune I will leave college to start flying. I have a PPL already, so it might be a wise idea for you to do that (if possible) at the same time as doing your AS's. It’s hard work combining the 2 but certainly worth it if you’re dead set on flying.

h

If as reported the pass rate for A level examination entrants is in the order of 97% why wouldn't most employers expect a candidate to have such a qualification as a matter of course ?

It has not always been the case in the past, but I would expect to see it become more of a minimum educational requirement for employment in the future.

In a market that is awash with low hour licence holders, you would be selling yourself against others with such minimum qualifications.....wouldn't you ?? ;)

Employers really aren't interested in what school qualifications you have when they recieve your flying CV. The first thing they look is your hours. If these are not high enough for their 'requirements' your CV is filed in the B1N ASAP and if you're lucky a PFO mailed out. You are wasting their time listing all your GCSE, A-Level, BTEC's etc on your flying CV so in view of this you are not at a disadvantage at the application stage at all because I for one do not list acedemic quals on my flying CV.

If you speak to the recruiters they will tell you this.

VFE

Yes VFE but your flying experience is only the "first thing" they look at. If your experience meets their requirements it is not the only thing they look at. I can guarantee that.

If a CV has no educational qualifications listed, I would would assume the applicant has either omitted them which would seem strange, or has none. The CV would then be dealt with on that basis. There are normally a lot of them to read.

"Recruiters" will tell you what they want to tell you, in much the same way that applicants will hear what they want to hear.

Fair point Bealzebub and you are clearly better placed to know owing to your position so thanks for your thoughts. One of my concerns when first compiling my flying CV was the danger of putting too much in and it being dismissed on the basis of it being too lengthy to bother with.

One of those 'How To Become A Pilot....' manuals I purchased about four years ago boldly stated that the key to your CV was to remember the golden rule: Keep it on one page! They also laid out a plan for the presentation and acedemic quals didn't feature - seeing as I still do not have that elusive first job perhaps they were talking out their pipe....

Do you agree with the one page idea (including acedemic quals) or is the one page idea a daft one?

Thanks again,

VFE.

Pilots and qualifications
 

Is anybody or does anybody know of any airline pilots who are NOT educationally qualified A-level and above?

Is it possible to become an atp if not academically qualified as such,or is it possible but unlikely employment prospects?

Cheers

If you include ATPL(H), then yes, me.

I've met all sorts of pilots without post-16 academic qualifications. Without a doubt however they were all quite bright enough that they *could* have done so.

G

I think your biggest problem might arise with selection to any of the integrated courses at the approved schools. Although they are happy to take your money so you can get around this.

The selections tend to have apptitude tests which as pointed out will prove that you have the capacity to learn and that you're more intelligent than any piece of paper might suggest.

ATPL studies I think require a certain ability to learn, particularly maths and Physics although a base knowledge wouldn't be required as most of the physics is explained with an orientation to what you need to know to be a pilot. It's all close to GCSE level (as they were when I took them in the early 90's)

I'm your man. I've got a few CSE's and a piss-poor OND in Business Studies to my name. However, I did find that when you are self-sponsoring, your cash speaks louder than your educational qualifications.

4 O levels and ATPL A and H. Qualifications make selection easier but not impossible.

Most airlines are more interested in your results in the theory exams and a 1st time IR pass also helps I'm told...

If it’s any use, I have zero academic qualifications and have 5 exams remaining on the ATPL’s. So far my average is mid 90’s, so even a thicko like me can do it
:O

Qualifications
 

My names Tom, im inr at 6th form, i already have my ppl and am definatly going to apply to a flight school such as CTC or Oxford after i finish my A leves! The problem i have is that me and maths dont get on that well, im really good at physics but i suck at maths! it just doesnt make sense to me and i cant see the relavance of pretty much every topic i cover, in relation to what i want to do with my career. it says its prefered that you have maths at Alevel as a qualification but iv met countless pilots who havent ever done math beyond GCSE! so my question is to all profesional pilot out there do i really need Alevel maths? because i dont get one with it and can barely do it and from what iv seen of the maths involved in flying for a living i could aready do that with what i know! so i dont really want to waste any more of time doing maths if i dont have to!
any and all help and advice will be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Tom

Re: Qualifications
 

Hi Tom

Im also in my last year of college, im 18 and also hold a PPL (a lot of us around these days!)

Its by no means perequisite to do Maths A Level, i do Physics as A level though as i like it, however do the subjects u enjoy! If all goes to plan i should be going to Oxford this summer on the APP, might see you there!

PM me if you have anymore questions

Good luck :ok:

Re: Qualifications
 

thanks! yeh mayb see you there but im going to try CTC first as they are just down the road from me! ok well if anyone has anything else to add id appreciate it! thanks
Tom

Re: Qualifications
 

I don't know what the airlines require re:A-Levels for sponsorship these days but if you're self sponsoring then don't worry - GCSE level maths is more than enough.

VFE.

academically cable to be a pilot
 

Hello,

Would any be able to give me some very important advice. My parents are after putting up the deedes to their house as security to fund my pilot training. I'm very worriered that if I get half way through the course and I am not able to pass the exams, the house will be taking of them because they would not be able to make the payments for five years.

Could you tell me with your own experience what is an just under academically average person's chance of getting the commercially licence please.

There are plenty of threads that cover this topic. Try a quick forum search. However, as a rule of thumb, the ATPL exams are compared by many to GCSE's in terms of difficulty. In fact, someone here recently compared passing the ATPL exams to passing 14 GCSE's rather than equating the ATPL's to a degree. I've not sat them personally, so I guess there are many more people here more qualified to comment.


As we don’t know anything about you or your academic ability (just under is a bit vague), it’s difficult to say – so I won’t comment there. All I’ll say is, I hope you succeed – for your parents’ sake as much as your own. It’s a wonderful gesture what your parents have made. Do lots of research and find out as much as you can about the training. Maybe visit a few schools.

Good luck.
S.

I’d be very careful about equating the ATPL written exams to GCSEs. Having done both, I’d say the workload is much closer to degree level than GCSEs. And the commitment required to pass them is higher than either GCSEs or a degree – think of trying to complete a degree in a year, while working full time. I’d suggest that the only way they equate to GCSEs is in the academic ability required to pass them.

I have to say my own experience of the ATPLs is that in terms of difficulty they are nothing like as difficult as doing a "proper" degree..... I did an engineering degree that was many times more complex in terms of the level of understanding required than the ATPL exams.... and certainly for my degree there wasn't a question bank in the public domain containing 60-70% of the questions I was likely to face.

I think the 14 GCSE analogy is probably nearer the truth from my own experience.... (without the coursework of course :E )... perhaps even less challenging because lets face it the 2 comms exams are not exactly rocket science.

Its really just about volume... nothing too technically difficult if you can get a very basic grip of physics/maths. Like I say it is only my own experience but I managed to get through the ATPLs in 12 months whilst working 60-70 hours per week in a full time job so even the volume side can be done.
Another thing I would point to with the ATPLs is that many many people now seem to be getting through with averages in the 90s for all 14 exams (if the folks I talk to are telling the truth!).... I don't know any other professional exams in which people so regularly get such a high average mark.

Having recently been through the exam process it certainly was not as tough as some people had led me to believe..... good on you though for asking the question, its a big risk.... personally I would never let my parents put their house on the line to fund flying training... many old hands on here spend a lot of time and effort telling wanabees how fickle this industry can be.... why not reduce the risk, get a job and do the exams whilst working if you are that worried about it??

One word. Don't.

I agree with Re-Heat. If your folks are risking losing their home over your training you're putting yourself under a hell of a lot of pressure. There is enough pressure involved in getting your fATPL as it is without that sort of worry.

Work full time and save like mad, borrow from a bank what you can, apply to the likes of CTC who will help you arrange a loan, anything but what your parents are suggesting in my opinion. A flying job ain't worth seeing your family put out on the street mate.

Good Luck

I'm in the exact same situation. Don't know if I should pursue my training yet or not.

Will a lack of basic quals hold me back?
 

This is one for the more senior pilots that perhaps have an input when CV's fly over desks.
I have NO basic GCSE's as i was a bit of a prat in my youth and wanted to work. I managed to talk my way in to a job as an aprentice mechanic and then joined the Army where i spent 10 years as a technician. I'm now a design engineer with EADS (Airbus parent company, i dont have anything to do with that though!) and have numerous qualifications in my field.
So thats me, but back to my question, will i be overlooked because i have no basic quals?
OAT have said they would be happy to accept me on experience but as a business i would expect that, i'm not so sure an airline would be so forgiving.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Phil

At your advanced age, and with work experience behind you, your academic qualifications (or lack of them) are largely irrelevant.

Scroggs

Thanks
 

Cheers Scroggs, was actually aiming that question at you. Thanks a lot.
Would i be expected to put my Career quals on an Airline CV or just work exp and flying Exp?

Phil

I would perhaps put the highest qualification you have on there, and allude to 'supporting qualifications'. An aviation CV (we're crossing back to your original topic here!) does not require inventive descriptions of how good you are or have been; it is simply a statement of directly-relevant experience.

Even brand-new baby pilots straight out of school rarely need to mention much about academic qualifications - though they might as well, as they have little else to talk about - unless they are applying for one of the various pay-it-yourself 'sponsorship' schemes. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that many airlines now use application forms rather than CVs, where you may well have an opportunity to note down non-academic quals.

Scroggs

I doubt the exams are equivalent to 14 GCSE's - the two comms exams took approx 2 and a half minutes each to sit (so 5 mins in total for 2 exams - but then I heard GCSEs were getting easier). With the best will in the world the exams can be done part time in less than a year. A degree is 3 years full time and GSCEs 2 years full time. They do require time, patience and study but 'ballpark' comparisons will always be contentious.

If you struggle you will assume a hefty (possibly degree) equivalent; if you didn't you will find an easier comparison. Some science A levels are probably harder than some degrees:}

One of the guys on my crammer course was telling everyone how an ATPL was considered equivalent to a degree. He was on his final attempt in several subjects but was still having problems transposing simple formulas. (eg if speed = distance/time how do you find time if you are given speed and distance). I really hope he made it, but the fact he found it difficult didn't make it any closer to a degree.

I used an excellent book called "Ace the technical pilot interview" or similar to brush up on what I had done in the exams pre-airline interview. I would suggest those who are worried to have a quick browse through it and see if they could ever see themselves learning it (bearing in mind it is not a teaching course, simply an aide memoire). It gives a hint as to what sort of level of knowedge is required.

As to what qualifications employers want - this thread could go on forever but my own tuppenceworth is than their importance diminishes with other experience.

If you are 21 with 3 GCSEs and a shelf stacking career you may find other candidates take your place.

If you are 21 with 3 GCSEs and have led a round the world expedition including organising the support team and getting major corporate sposorship - then you probably shouldn't worry too much.

Everyone applying for the job will have the same license. Say there are 300 of you - what have you got that they haven't; and can you put it in a CV so that when 10 of you are invited to interview, you are one of them. Academic quals (for the younger applicant) are a useful filter at that stage.

Some larger companies won't look at you regardless. If they have to filter10,000 applicants who do have their academic criteria why would they even entertain those who don't.

There are plenty of you there who have cited cases of people without A-levels (or equivalent) getting a job. I know someone who smoked 40 a day for most of his life and lived to be 90. It doesn't mean that smoking is the smartest thing to do for a long life though - many more have died of lung cancer in their 50s.

As to them taking up too much space on your CV - I could take up an entire side of A4 if I wanted to; it doesn't mean you have to though. 14 GSCEs can be listed as

"14 GCSEs - Grades A-C: Including Mathematics and Physics"

or similar. Many companies have an application form with spaces for that sort of thing anyway.

Given the costs involved, however, I would be slightly wary if you cannot stick an academic course because you have no motivation but assume 12 months of maths and physics based (amongst other stuff) ATPL exams will hold your attention any more. I think most on this thread will agree that A levels are beneficial to getting a job but not necessary - if that benefit isn't motivational enough consider:

Trigonometry doesn't get hugely more interesting because there is a picture of an aeroplane at one of the corners on the blackboard.

Cl=1/2 x rho x v (squared) x s isn't ant less algebraic because Cl is the coefficient of lift

And the endless pages of drivel about conventions in Warsaw aren't enthralling because they refer to air law.

isnt that

L / (1/2 x rho x V (squared) x S) = Cl

;)

:O :O :O

It was a while ago...

I'm not sure how to put this tactfully, so I won't...

How anyone can suggest that a GCSE can be comparable with A-Levels, a Degree or ATPLs is beyond me. :rolleyes:

GCSEs were easy when I did them, probably easier now, and the jump between GCSEs and A-Levels is known to be larger than the jump from A-Levels and a Degree. Do you even need to 'know' anything to pass a GCSE?!

Gee, I'm amazed at this discussion, I thought ATPL exams were supposed to be hard! If they're the same as GCSEs I'll pass easily!!!:p

BUT I don't believe that's the case at all. IT flies in the face of logic and common-sense. In fact, despite having a Degree and being a qualified solicitor I don't mind admitting I'll have to work my arse off to get my ATPLs!:(

ATPL equivalent to NVQ, A-Levels or HNC/HND?
 

I was just wondering what was the official line on the equivalence of the ATPL theory to:

• NVQ
• A-Levels
• HNC/HND

Clearly it's not degree or above as there is no element of research in it.

There is no official line - but a quick search will show that different people consider it to be equal to any of the above.

Personally, in terms of difficulty I don't think anything is harder than a science O level (and since we are constantly assured that GCSEs are not getting easier then the same stands for that).

There is a lot of volume to learn in things like Air Law - but that is nearly all simply memorising stuff.

All the exams can be done from start to finish in less than a year whilst holding down a full time job - to give you an idea of the amount of study.
So in terms of difficulty andquantity I would say that all the exams together are about the same as a couple of O levels.

There will be many differing opinions to follow.....:rolleyes:

If your question is as to where to list it on CVs (BTECs in the A-level box or whatever), then aviation employers know what it is and non-aviation employers probably won't care a jot.