"The existing centres provide a reasonable solution for some of the schools. Gatwick for the LGU, Silsoe for the Cranfield/Coventry area, and Glasgow for Glasgow. One additional centre at Bournemouth could serve the three schools in the area, while a further centre in or around Bristol could serve BGS and Kemble. "

I think you need to divorce the schools location from the students location with regard to modular people.

Many live a long way from the school, so this would not solve the problem.

In the above quote, there is still a massive amount of land and population between Coventry & Glasgow.

h-r

The case for an extra exam centre because of an increase in the number of candidates is not convincing. The CAA stats for the number of ATPL(A) exams taken over the last year show no overall increase in volume. In fact, the October 04 sitting had fewer candidates than any sitting since June 03.

If there's a case to be made for a new centre it would have to be based on the idea of offering more choice to the CAA's customers or on an anticipated increase in turnover. Either way a northern centre makes most sense to me.

A Northern England exam centre has been discussed with the CAA fairly recently and their belief was that there is not sufficient demand for an additional centre at present.

Does anybody know if FCL have analysed where the studying population is coming from?

There are a lot of people on the ATPL threads in PPrune with Northern addresses.

The choice of schools is a personal matter. But as a national body the CAA must have a duty to establish a reasonable distribution of centres around the country.

At the moment, it is skewed towards the SE (Garwick, Silsoe, Oxford).

It would be interesting to hear a view from FCL direct why they think there is no perceived demand for a centre in the North and how many current ATPL (A) and (H) students are distributed in the area 052 030N through to 055 000N (North side of Birmingham to Carlise) who may find it quicker and less costly to attend an exam centre in the Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds triangle.

Didn't there used to be an examination centre at Manchester?

(Say, "Yes" - 'cause I did some of mine there).

I believe there was and that due to insufficient demand it was closed and that is the precedent the CAA are using to claim no requirement for one now. Although I do find it hard to believe with the number of northern based wannabes that there woudn't be a demand for one now.

I love it! As instructors years back we used to get p###ed with the oppositions instructors and let managements hurl rocks at each other. Glad to see the internet age has hit good old flight/ground instructing squabbles.

Guys I have worked with or done courses with that I would recommend: No idea where any of them are but last known in brackets. BTW, any of them care to get in touch, PM me.

Mike Alderton, Tech stuff (London Met)
Pete Knapp, Nav (London Met)
John Standen, serious drinking buddy, lodger, bodily function discussions and Met, (Oxford)
Alex Whittingham, Perf A, Bristol

Regards to all ex SFT and SECOAT staff and students. I hope it all worked out in the end. (The Inspector Morses can now put it together and work me out. My shrink failed.

Something that seems missing from this thread is the fact that there's been a new exam venue in use for the past few months, LGU/London Met Uni, at their Tower Hill campus in central London, which was a solution to the outrage of LMU students regularly being sent on a trip to Silsoe or even Glasgow when the Gatwick venue was oversubscribed.

Don't see why the CAA wouldn't agree to provide exams at venues in the south-west and the north-west aswell if flight schools ask them hard enough?

Because rationale, customer convenience and common sense come into it:E

So how come the LMU does not come up as an option for exams ?



(and for that matter how come the info/ directions pack include Silsoe AND Shuttleworth when they are only a few miles apart)?

h-r

Was at BCFT in 2002, seems such a long time ago now!

Place is very different now so I hear. At the time they were still fairly new as a school but the instructors were all helpful, efficient and certainly got me through. Screwed a 'couple' of exams up but then that was because I was a lazy arse and not down to lack of tuition!

I hear nothing but good things about them now. Certainly worth a look with the others, then I guess the rest is down to you.

I hope Andy Wood is still teaching law, the guy is priceless.

Loving the inter school PPRuNe 'banter' though (my freeeeeends)!!

it's funny about the exam venues all the same...three far south and one far far north...
hardly seems fair to the northern brothers, and when i went for my exams during the summer, there was quite a lot of guys from northern england.

why can't the caa be more flexible on this issue?
if there is a high demand from a certain section of candidates from the north, surely they can offer a sitting up north for that particular month....or something like that?
I'm almost sure that there schools in the US that have exam sittings there...
If it's possible to do that, surley the same effort can be made for the north?

and why not a venue in belfast?....ah the impossible dream...

The reason Bournemouth came very close to having an exam centre is because the three schools located there all argued (with the CAA) to get one. The reason the scheme failed has already been discussed in this thread.

If the CAA receive enough logical arguments for a centre in the midlands (or anywhere else for that matter) they will look at the matter and may well agree to it. But without the active support (agitation) from at least one school, the CAA are unlikely to be swayed.

Distance learning (by definition) involves studying at a distance. For a good many non-aviation types of distance learning courses this means distance both from the school and from the examination centre.

All ATPL distance learning students are required to travel to their schools for the consolidation phase of their training. If students carry out their consolidation immediately prior to their exams they can stay in the same area and avoid additional travel costs.

It is also worth noting that one of the schools that supported the establishment of an exam centre at Bournemouth provides only distance learning courses. That school clearly recognised the value of having an exam centre in the area where students carry out the consolidation element of their course.

So what are the chances of Bournemouth getting an exam centre in the near future?

The CGI of BCFT tells me that he is still looking for an alternative venue.

But having already looked at a great many, I do not hold out much hope. The hotels will not commit to long term bookings because they want to remain free for the conference seasons. The Colleges will not commit to long term bookings because they have no permanently spare capacity. The sports clubs will not commit long term because they want to remain free for the football, cricket or whatever else they do seasons.

If however a suitable venure is found, EPTA will not object even if it is a BCFT classroom, provided all local students have equal access to it.

If however BCFT ever come around to agreeing to the EPTA classroom, the CAA would probably be quite happy to give it a go. It could probably happen in January, which is the next time our students go to the exams.

Sorry Keith, but i am one of Alex's (BGS) flock and I don't like the idea of examinations being taken in schools, it strikes me as a conflict of interest.
I know that oxford host exams and I am not impying anything here, I just think it could be open to abuse, like most things these days.
FF

Hello Frank,

I can certainly understand your intuitive unease. I have always been slightly concerned about the situation at OATS. It is no coincidence that during the initial months of JAR exams, OATS had by far the best feedback. This was quite simply because with an exam centre in their school they were able to debrief students immediately after the exams. But with the passage of time this advantage has been eroded by the fact that feedback inevitably leaks between schools. I suspect that all schools now have pretty much the same feedback.

It should also be noted that OATS is not the only school in which exams are taken. I believe that the centre in Jerez is also within the school and exams have recently been taken in LGU. I also believe that the Glasgow exam centre is closely linked with the
school. In addition to this, the exam centre in Florida is provided jointly by three schools out there. And is West Michigan ever start another JAR course they will probably also have their own exam centre. It is almost the case that schools without an exam centre are becoming the minority.

We must also rember that if the EPTA classroom is used, the exam papers will not be available to EPTA. The CAA require that these be held in a secure place and handled only by the invigilators. I have never suggested that EPTA should provide the invigilators. There is a CAA flying test centre at bournemouth, so they will have no problems ensuring the security of the papers.

Because the three Bournemouth schools are located within little more than 100 yards of each other, none of these schools would gain any advantage over the others. All of the local students could quite easily visit their schools for debreif during the lunchtime, or indeed the schools could send instructors into EPTA to talk to their students between exams. EPTA has no objections to any of these options.

In assessing my intentions here it is also worth noting that I am quite happy for classrooms in any of the Bournemouth schools to be used. It is the very large size of the EPTA classrooms that makes them the prime candidate, rather than any preference on my part.

I personally would also be quite happy if an exam centre were also to be set up in other schools including BGS. But I have no interest in agitating for this, quite simply because it does not affect the welfare of my students.

The schools have a great many things over which to compete. The interests of students everywhere will be best served if we ensure that examination centres does not become one of them.

Thanks for that Keith
FF

Keith - I did my (old name) "technicals" at the Manchester exam center, as quoted above, but did my (old name) "navigation subjects" at the Bournemouth examination center.

I trained through PPSC (R.I.P.). I'm pretty sure that the examinations were held in the CAA ATC training center - could that not be resurrected?

This was one of the first venues we looked at, but they said that they no longer have any vacant space.

It would really suit me, and many others I suppose, if there will be an exam center in Bournemouth anytime soon. On the other hand I do understand the concerns of Frank Furillo.

There's no chance that EPTA could have a well-defined area for attendees which is "clean" of anything that could remind of an advertisment. Also make sure that the staff of EPTA isn't available in that area more than necessary.

I don't know the full story here, but isn't it to the benefit of all three schools if some sort of collaboration is possible?

Sorry guys, but as I am from the north i feel that if the CAA were to use another centre I and many like me would prefer Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham.
I understand that as most of the groundschools are in the south it follows that the examination venues are there, i just feel a bit of the North/South Divide coming on, must be my scouse roots.
Just my two pence worth
FF

This idea is masked as 'good for the students', and I'm sure it would save a few students a drive up the M3, but it's really being pursued by EPTA because it's a benefit to them, hence the reluctance of the other Bournemouth FTOs to play Keith's game. They're not stupid. The benefit lies in the kudos, being made to look like a serious school and appearing to have a hot line to the CAA. The existing centres are not at capacity and, if there is a case to be made for another exam centre then Bournemouth just isn't it, there are many more students from up north that aren't catered for at all and many schools with more students than EPTA.

OATS had the best feedback in the early days of JAR for a number of reasons, one of which was that nearly all the candidates were their students.

The Swedish CAA have contracted an adult educational association which provides FTO's with invigilators. This means that if an FTO got at least 6 students on one particulator test day an invigilator will come to that school at no additional cost. I guess this is something that the UK CAA wouldn't consider?

ALEX I am afraid you are way off the mark again.

GTS is quite happy for the exam centre to be in EPTA. EPTA is quite happy for the exam centre to be anywhere within reasonable travel distance of Bournemouth Airport. That includes any of the other schools at Bournemouth. I even suggested Kingston Maurward Agricultural College at Dorchester because it is about midway between Bournemouth and Cheddar.

Of the three schools at Bournemouth, it is only BCFT that objects to the use of the EPTA classroom.

You probably are not aware of the negotiations that have taken place. The CAA passed a list of requirements to the three Bournemouth schools. Contrary to some of your previous posts they did not require that the venue be provided free of charge, nor did they stipulate a minimum of 70 seats. They actually stipulated between 50 and 70 with a distance of 3 feet between desks. Using these dimensions the EPTA classroom could hold only about 40. But the spacing at Gatwick is closer to 2 feet between desks. Using this distance 50 desks could probably be accommodated. When thius was suggested, they stated that they were happy to come and look at the proposed room.

The CAA were quite serious about conducting a trial during the September exams. They also stated that if the Bournemouth venue was of insufficient capacity to take the BGS students then they would also consider sites closer to Bristol.

There is no reason why more than one new venue could be established. Instead of trying to prevent a centre being created at Bournemouth your efforts could be used more productively in trying to establish a site at a location more suitable to your students. EPTA would have no objection whatsoever if this additional venue turned out to be at BGS.

As for your comments regarding Kudos.....Are you seriously suggesting that we all envy the school at Glasgow or believe that they have close links with the CAA? As Peggy Murphy would put it, AW c'mon Ted???

Suit yourself. I think you'll find the CAA were just being polite and letting your proposal quietly wither through lack of support. In either case, repeatedly restating your position on PPRuNe isn't going to get the other schools in line behind you. If you think you've got a case you should be talking to them, not attacking them.

It seems to me, that regardless of where the school is, generally, students prefer to head for an examination centre either near home or near relatives where they can crash for four days.

re: ground schools in USA
 

Did anyone attend distance learning course with U.S. schools? pfea and ASA are offering ATPL ground exams for JAA?

Are these school same as the UK schools?

Alex and Keith,

Thank you, belatedly, for that ding-dong. Pprune at its very best - intellectual muskets drawn.......10 paces...... turn and fire.

I wish more would follow your lead.

:ok: