UK based ATO comparisons
 

Hello all,

I am very new to pprune and this is my first post on here. Hoping to provide to and receive quality info from the community!

I'm currently training on an Integrated ATPL course with a provider based in the UK. Finished my theory exams in Autumn last year. At the moment, still waiting to start the flying phase with no given start date.

Just wanted to know if anyone who has completed their training or are towards the end of their training have any information regarding their ATO. Interested to see what the general situation is at ATOs such as L3, CAE, Leading Edge as I may consider a transfer.

Would highly appreciate information on:
- Delays
- Training Quality
- Airline Partnerships
- Cadet placement/Post course completion support
- Any important updates

Many thanks

I'd be doing everything I could to slow training down right now, making use of the 36 months you have after ATPL theory finishes to get your CPL ME IR licences issued.

fly.jr,
What have been your experiences so far?

I would avoid L3. Anecdotally a grim and toxic place (Bournemouth). Spectacularly overpriced. In fighting among instructor management although individual instructors can be very good. Minimal respect for the vast customer outlay. If you go modular and slow it down, ACS near Perth, Scotland is garnering a good rep. A c150 is a very good basic training aircraft, you don’t need. a DA 40 with a virtual FMS. Stick and rudder skills first and the airliner stuff later.

Understand that Skyborne Airline Academy has a good reputation. They have been doing all training in the UK so probably some delays due weather but they have recently announced their fair weather base in Florida where the single engine training will be completed so I'd imagine that will enable on time completion compared with schools who do all training in the UK.

Thanks for all the information!

I have been waiting to start my basic flight training for just over 6 months now and if I transfer ATO I will still have to wait for their next start date, which may still be in a few months time. Therefore, should I stay integrated, I may finish the course mid to end next year which is still quite a while away in my opinion.

I definitely see the benefits of changing to modular with respect to having control of the training duration as well as money saving.

A question though, do ATO's such as L3 and CAE who have built a reputation for themselves over the years, make it more likely for a student to get an interview? Assuming an integrated cadet and a modular cadet both achieve high ground school scores and good flying performances, do any of these cadets have an advantage over the other?

Thanks

There is no easy answer...
It is true that along the years, CAE and L3 have graduated many pilots and they could now be in key recruitment positions
On the other hand, my student graduates tell me that application forms don’t ask from where you got your licence

If you want to transfer to a different ATO, there are plenty where you will start flying immediately...

btw, it was publicly announced that L3 put his entire pilot training división for sale... and I believe he already sold it... except the basic pilot training part of it. Google it for confirmation

Fly.jr: L3 do not have any direct influence over airline placement. They may or maybe not these days say they have influence. They don’t. Airline recruiters are in general looking for a well rounded individual with possibly some extra life experience which lends itself to the modular route. As a former airline recruiter I got fed up with the endless “well, I left school then I went to L3 ( or whoever) and then I became a pilot”. The elephant in the room being how exactly did you find 100 grand for the funding? There was also no evidence of extra skill or knowledge overall from the graduates of the big schools. Their only selling point appeared to be ‘influence’, now no more. I must stress that many of the graduates were extremely able and talented but overall no more or less so than any other demographic.

My advice is apart from the oft repeated ‘go modular’. Do something interesting and different. A university degree perhaps? Find a job outside aviation. Possibly charity work. Stay fit through sport involvement. Read the papers and understand the business and political landscape. Do some research into the airline industry. What engines do Rolls Royce make? Where are the Airbus wings made? What fast jets do the RAF fly? Read the flying mags. Stay engaged. Be broad minded. Wherever you do your training, make sure that you enjoy it. Prepare for the flights / ground school. Good luck.

ATO in the Northwest UK
 

Along similar lines, looking at funding my son through a modular course - anybody recomend anywhere in the North West UK?

Carcharodon: Ravenair ("raven-urr") in Liverpool.

Fly.jr: is there any reason being given for lack of start date of flying phase?

I couldn’t confirm this. Do you happen to have a link (already been sold part)?

At least one airline in the past accepted applications from integrated but not modular. That policy was relaxed but there were stipulations on the academic qualifications of the modular applicant if I recall correctly.
There is nothing wrong with going straight from school to an ATO to an airline. The funding should have no influence. It’s certain that a competency based interview will require you to give examples of situations. It’s inevitable that an older candidate with more life experiences will find this easier or so you’d think.
There is a certain irony that people on a course will compare notes and potential answers to interview Qs. They clearly have in the past sat around discussing it.
A military officer however will be busy perhaps as a flight commander whilst being a husband/wife and parent to young children. The answers the latter give are unlikely to be as prepared.
a well rounded recruiter won’t get fed up and will remain objective respectful and fair whilst recognising these idiosyncrasies.

Any reviews for Aeros Coventry? Looking to start with them this Fall (for a license conversion + FI course)

Agree with the above you should drag this out for as long as possible. I am bias and would recommend the modular route. I am seeing 3-4 posts on LinkedIn a week from who have just gained their frozen ATPL who will all be job hunting this year and next

Here are my top 10 rules, if I was starting today and not 50 years ago, I would definitely follow them.......

1. Go Modular if you are paying for yourself and are not being sponsored or funded by an airline.
2. Seek the highest quality training by doing proper research.
3. Spend no more than $60,000 (or equivalent) from start to finish (CPL/ME/IR/MCC)
4. Do not think the cheapest is the best option, it costs real money to deliver quality training.
5. Don't delay just because of the COVID trauma we have had to endure.
6. The market is on the way back and in 2 years (or less) you could be qualified and ready and not in a mountain of debt.
7. Look at the US option (started in Florida 26 years ago) for UK and EASA training, favorable exchange rates. sensible pricing, good weather, reputable approved FAA schools with UK & EASA approvals are limited in number but worth a serious look.
8. DO NOT ever pay the total course price (or a significant portion) upfront - run a mile from any school which demands that regardless of glossy advertising or promises a job or connections with airlines.
9. DO NOT blindly follow either the optimist or the gloom and doom merchants - find out the facts for yourself - this forum does not give definitive answers, postings are just opinions (like mine) some from those who care about giving helpful advice, but also from those that don't and are bias or have a vested interest themselves.
10. Most of all though, ENJOY THE RIDE....learning to fly is amazing, being a pilot is something to be proud of (PPL or CPL) - flying is the best profession in the world if you love flying, but don't do it for the imagined glamour of the job, which so often, doesn't really exist.

After 50 years as a private and professional pilot and many ups and downs along the way (like many others who contribute to this and other forums), I think item 10 is critical to make the journey all worth it.

Having tried through both CAE and L3 I'd reccomend CAE, as it seems to be much more relaxed in terms of the assessments and teaching. Modular is definitely the way to go, as it is less likely to break the bank. You can switch between training providers on the fly(!) and give yourself much more flexibility in how you learn. Do your research and see which ATOs appear to offer the best services for each part of the training process. As a start, I might suggest the usage of CAE for ground school, but not anything sim training related, as their sims, (at least as of mid 2020) were not on their Oxbridge site but instead in Coventry. The PPL/Hour building section is usally abroad, with Phoenix, Arizona being one of their remote training bases.

Skyborne
 

Anyone got any feedback regarding Skyborne integrated programme?
Delays, hidden costs, aftercare, placement pool, student treatment etc?

pilotatlast

The only issue with Skyborne is that i heard that all their early students who had signed for their EASA ATPL have been dumped with UK ATPL which as things stand is useless outside the UK and most flight jobs there may be atm e.g. Ryanair/WIZZ are seeking EASA ATPL even though working from UK bases as their aircraft are registered in either Ireland or Romania. Conversion from UK ATPL to EASA is in the region of GBP15,000. a lot of grumpy faces at Skyborne.