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-   -   CAE easyJet MPL 2020 (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/628378-cae-easyjet-mpl-2020-a.html)

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP 7th May 2020 09:24

This unfolding situation should be part of the flashy advertising blurb that airlines/flight schools spew out when launching these schemes. It is profoundly wrong that people aren’t fully aware of what they are risking by getting into bed with often shady airlines and their fast track shiny jet schemes.

Like many, I hate the way they exploit young impressionable people with their glossy illustration of airline life whilst trousering vast amounts of money at little risk to themselves. Ridiculous sums of money charged for type ratings that help subsidise their wafer thin balance sheets.

I wouldn’t even buy a new car from anyone in senior airline management. I certainly wouldn’t trust them or any of their associated “training providers” with £130k of my money.

For the avoidance of doubt, a contract will always be in their favour and worthless when they run out of money. Remember CABAIR?

portsharbourflyer 7th May 2020 09:36

Not just CABAIR, Four Forces, Southern Flight Training (incidentally the director of this set up EPTA under a Cabair franchise literally on the other side of the road). In all cases students lost varying sums of money.

parkfell 7th May 2020 16:48

Add Trent, Cranfield to the list of owners who did a runner causing a number of customers to loose money.
Was there a Secoats at Lydd that folded as well?
A few of their customers completed at BAe, PIK at ‘cost price’.

A very small crumb of comfort for future trainees ~ your superior negotiating skills will always secure an improved deal. Never take the first offer. Always be prepared to walk away.

Retired / ex BALPA reps would be well suited to this rôle.

Take a leaf out of my brother’s book. He always buys his fairly new (second hand) car on Christmas Eve afternoon, or New Year’s Eve. As he says NO to their final offer on the deal, having haggled for a good 20 minutes, he walks to the showroom door, only to be called back......need I say more.....

Broadlands 9th May 2020 09:15

For anyone considering the MPL, or any flight training ask how many of the flight instructors are full time salaried employees and how many are contractors.

This will give a very good indication of the type of organisation.

Avipe 9th May 2020 14:24

Patience!
 
After big crisis come big opportunities, just need to WAIT, this is not gonna be the end of the world, it is just the end of chances to find a job within this and next year, take this time to study or work in something else and save money, after one covid treatment or vaccine is found(it's said to be 6-9months) there will be a better perspective on how situation is( airlines, flight schools, economy), 2021 and 2022 will be 2 years for current working pilots recover their jobs, so there will be no MPL programmes in at least 1 year. For those intended to do integrated or modular ATPL, no point to finish before second half of 2022 or even a bit later.

But don't believe those dramatic and apocalytic guys who tell this is the end of the world, it never is, I've seen several reports from touroperators and airlines that the pace of reservations for the next year is good, imagine after treatment for Covid is found...

For those that just finished MPL, it is cheaper for easyJet to hire a second officer than one experienced first officer, so, you will be hired once this is all gone, in the meantime, you will need to work in something else to pay your loans, thst's hard but not a disaster(the other day I saw one 747 captain of BA working with a van for a supermarket, he did it just entertainment and also helping others, but it is an example that it is possible to work in something else).

So, cheer up, be patient and don't give away your money to some hungry flight school, forget studying this year!
Good luck!!

portos8 10th May 2020 08:31


Originally Posted by Broadlands (Post 10777124)
For anyone considering the MPL, or any flight training ask how many of the flight instructors are full time salaried employees and how many are contractors.

This will give a very good indication of the type of organisation.

Do you mean that companies with a lot of full time salaried employees are more likely to go bankrupt?

Stanley Eevil 10th May 2020 09:14

As a guess, perhaps he means that FTOs with mainly contractor TKIs are excessively penny pinching, profit obsessed, greedy companies who prioritise revenue above customer service and training output standards?

portsharbourflyer 10th May 2020 09:39

Again these posts just show how poor this forum is at objective discussion.

From my viewpoint comparing the number of contract vs salaried staff for a school seems to be a pointless metric to consider. Firstly most of the schools (CAE and FTE being the main two) that do MPL are the same schools that provide the Integrated fATPL courses.
The integrated schools do tend to be the only schools that offer full time salaried instructor positions.

Most schools that provide modular training only (not the subject of the post concerning this), will tend to have flight pay only or small retainer with flight pay contracts for the "line" instructors, this is a generalisation so it wont hold for all cases. If you look at adverts in the last 18 months (pre Covid) then all both L3 and CAE were all offering salaried positions with the usual range of benefits for even the single engine instructors (which traditionally only paid flight pay per hour), so all the large schools have recognised the need to pay proper salaries to attract and retain instructors.
The other point to consider is the advanced stage of the MPL requires the instructors (MPL K2 previoulsy J2) to have 1500 hours of multi crew experience, so the instructors conducing this phase of the training are either retired Airline Pilots or current Airline Pilots working part time; both of those groups will tend therefore to be working on "freelance" contract arrangements.
So by default any school running the MPL scheme will have a number of contractors.

If you are concerned about selecting a school on the basis of which school offers the best terms and conditions for the instructors then you should all opt to train at CAE and L3 and not consider modular.


Another point is all MPL courses have a rigid selection criteria, it is only a small percentage of applicants that get accepted, so if you are offered a place on a MPL course you won't really have a choice at where you do the MPL course. The only choice you have as a MPL is to accept or not accept the place on the course.

Broadlands, will be happy to hear an explanation of your rationale?

parkfell 10th May 2020 11:49


Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer (Post 10778092)
,,,,,,,,,all MPL courses have a rigid selection criteria, it is only a small percentage of applicants that get accepted, so if you are offered a place on a MPL course you won't really have a choice at where you do the MPL course. The only choice you have as a MPL is to accept or not accept the place on the course..........

Given the tsunami which has hit aviation, the last type of training course to recover will probably be the MPL.

Airlines will only consider it again when fully back on an even keel, and prospective junior birdmen will be somewhat wary given the fact that how these current MPL trainees are likely to be even worse off than those on the (f)ATPL route. The contract doesn’t to date provided any safeguards should training cease. In FLYBE case this would have been difficult as they ceased trading and the contract would become null and void.

MPL: no licence issued until base training successfully completed.
Without a licence, there is additional training due to a shortfall in light aircraft flying/tests for licence issue ~ CPL/IR route.

There is no doubt that the MPL route prepares the junior birdman far better for the RHS: “purpose built”
That is not to say the MCC/APS doesn’t achieve a quality product as well: “generically built”

Final thought: CAVEAT EMPTOR before entering any contractual agreement

portsharbourflyer 10th May 2020 13:25

Parkfell, agree on all your points there. There is just one correction to your post, the MPL to conventional CPL/IR conversion as detailed in the easy access rules is based on the MPL being fully issued.

At the moment the EASA easy access rules do not clearly detail how an incomplete MPL is converted to a conventional CPL IR. I assume the regulators will permit some degree of cross credit for training completed to date, and realistically the extra training for someone with an issued MPL and one that is unfinished but reached at least the intermediate phase is probably about the same. The difference is with an issued MPL the conversion route is laid down in the regulations but for those that are incomplete I would assume (note I say assume because this is just my judgement based on the content of the course, which may not be correct) additional exemptions and approvals would need to be sought from the NAA to agree the conversions process.

Since writing the post this morning there has been news in the public to domain to say MPL courses are getting cancelled.

WarrenFlight 10th May 2020 13:38


Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer (Post 10778321)
Since writing the post this morning there has been news in the public to domain to say MPL courses are getting cancelled.

Portsharbourflyer, please could you clarify what you mean by this? Cheers.

parkfell 10th May 2020 14:18

It is hard to image that any sensible NAA would not agree to a large measure of common sense, take a very understanding pragmatic view, and simply require the shortfall to be completed to a satisfactory standard for these very unfortunate trainees.
The construction of the MPL syllabus, with I hope natural ‘break points’ smooth the whole process.

Let us hope that the “Campaign Against Aviation” is but a distant memory.

larki 10th May 2020 17:28

If MPL courses are getting cancelled, where does this leave students like my son who has done all his MPL apart from the base training which was stopped by easyjet

parkfell 10th May 2020 19:57

In an extremely unfortunate position, as base training requires 12 T/O & landings which is undoubtedly expensive.
The previous posts today discusses other possible options which might emerge.

portsharbourflyer 10th May 2020 20:51

Larki,

Remember this is an internet forum, so please do note what I write in my post is my interpretation based on what I know about the MPL training system and the easy access rules, further it is my interpretation of them. So your best course of action is to contact the ATO concerned (assume it would be CAE) to clarify what the options are.

Anyway the link to the Easy Access rules, you will see there are sections discussing MPL to CPL/IR, PAge 823 and 824.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...or_Aircrew.pdf


planesandthings 10th May 2020 23:39


Originally Posted by WarrenFlight (Post 10778330)
Portsharbourflyer, please could you clarify what you mean by this? Cheers.

Might be unrelated but there is this article https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN22D4PU

portsharbourflyer 11th May 2020 04:33

Warrenflight, I tried to reply to your PM but it wouldn't let me send, it gave a mailbox is full message.

Planesandthings, that is indeed the article I am referring to. While it doesn't mention MPL directly , I would assume that an Easyjet backed course is an MPL course.
There is a possibility that it could have been a tagged integrated that it is referring to, but as far as I know all recent Easyjet "backed" courses are MPL courses.

Information X.Ray 4th Jun 2020 11:44

Has anything else been said about the situation for MPL cadets? I know it is not looking great at the moment (With up to 30% of jobs to be lost in the airline). I think this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks now and I would find it interesting if anyone else could shed some light on the situation from either of the two schools offering the MPL.

planesandthings 4th Jun 2020 14:38

  • Programme is closed indefinitely to new entrants.
  • Those who completed their training at the end of MPL have been put into hold pool with no certainty of job ever coming available, that includes those who started their TR pre-covid.
  • UK training is not fully up and running for most L3/CAE cadets in the pipeline so training is paused indefinitely other than theoretical knowledge via webinar (all in addition to the major non covid delays), there has been talk that severance clauses in the training contract might be used to end EasyJet's involvement with those at an early stage of MPL training and revert them on whitetail ATPL courses. Those at a later stage will likely follow point two and end up in a holding pool for an undetermined time unless another Airbus operator can pick them up. Those I've spoken to in the pools are not expecting jobs before 2022 and are seeking employment (mostly outside aviation) elsewhere to bridge the financial shortfalls.

    All in all, the worst has not yet come. The training bills will still need paying with no income, I'd go as far to say there hasn't been a worse time in the industries' history to finish training to be a pilot, at least for then short-medium term.

Information X.Ray 4th Jun 2020 14:55

Thanks for the reply. I thought this is the sort of response I might receive. It is a real shame that it has come to this.


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