Looking to start flight training....BUT WHERE?
 

Hey guys, let me give you the briefing. I have a BComm and am currently working saving for pilot training. Currently i've saved about 40k CDN i know its not a lot given the steep price...im 23 and am a canadian citizen

CTC Wings, CAE and FTE Jerez way to expensive...

i really want to do my training via the EASA route, i know a Westjet 737 first officer with 6 years on the job who's making about 70k after tax pushing 85 hrs a month...he too wants to apply to the middle east soon for a bigger pay cheque....and that's peanuts id rather put my efforts towards the middle east since that is my background and i feel their rewards are better...Canadian/US airline jobs pay crap and the same first officer has a friend working for Skywest on the CRJ for the past 3 years barely making 45k...

i was looking into Flying Academy's 0 to ATPL and Bartolini Air's 0 to ATPL as well however im stuck like many, as to what i would do in europe after completing my training....work visa would most likely expire...i was looking into doing my flight instructing rating after and looking for jobs like many...

Anyone have any opinions, i really dont want to do my traning here in canada as airline pilot jobs are the worst compared to europe/middle east and taxes are sky high...? Any help helps! What would you guys do in my position....honest and professional answers welcome, its been my dream to be a pilot so please dont say dont do it...

I wouldn't look at Bartolini Air, they are too new in the business to have a big enough reputation for your CV to be looked at by recruiters. Plus, the being in Poland doesn't hold well for weather. I'd look at the FTO's further towards the south, with Greece, Spain and Italy being good examples of countries with fair weather all year round and not too costly.

Be wary of the scams though, if they're too good to be true, you should ignore them.

Best of luck.

TheSkiingPilot

It may be worth talking to Adam Penner at Harv's Air in Steinbach MB - they have some acquaintance with EASA rules, and may at least have a suggestion or two.

Phil

Thanks guys for the advice...lets all hope with all these orders the airlines will become more open to hiring fATPL'ers or at least continue to require pilots, everythings pointing towards that they will!

Just a word of advice to anyone doing flight training in Canada - be wary of the prices here, toronto airways ltd for example has an iATPL program for 75k +, with the weather here your probably looking at a little more.

Also, if your looking for airline opportunities here, forget it, i know a friend of mine whose's brother is a pilot on the a320 for air canada, he needed 4600 hrs TT to get his first interview, he applied every year after he got 2000 hrs flying pipers up north...waited 7 years for his first real job...7 years and a taxed 75k salary later, he hates it there saying pilots dont even look at each other cause they all want the left seat!!

you make a good point @TheSkiingPilot....everyone should take a few minutes to check the EASA website (FAA for US etc etc) to see if the school is legitimate and has their certification...it wouldnt hurt to go on linkedin and quickly msg a former instructor or student!

Anyone know the job prospects/potential of being a flight instructor in the EU? The one aspect holding be back (being a canadian citizen) is that going the EASA route i would have to work under a work visa which i know many employers dont offer, but what about flight instructing....seems like Flying Academy has some opportunities to become a FI either through an internship or FT.....any ideas?

I would get my training in Canada.
Or the US.

What if you didn't want to work for a North American airline?

The only reason i say this is that having lived in Canada pretty much my whole life and being born in the middle east, the pilots i talk to here struggle even at AC or WJ to make a good income, plus the lifestyle here is all tax tax tax. You cant save here.

I was considering the EASA route because i know many airlines that hate FAA/TC flight schools and prefer EASA. Especially now with the Gulf carriers getting heat from NA airlines the hate is gonna increase.

Either way you could always convert the licenses:ok:

And you actually believe that taxwise europe will be different or even better?
Ha!

Which is exactly what I would recommend. Get the TC or FAA license and then convert it.
Also, it is my personal opinion that the FAA and TC training are much better than easa.
I'll get some flak for this...

Don't forget to ask yourself why those guys already there and in receipt of the 'bigger pay cheque' are so desperate to get out from the middle east.

Top Tip, working conditions and practices!

Hi SP, I don't know if you have any direct experience of Bartolini or are just making it up, but my experience with them was entirely positive. Did a CPL/IR/ME course with them in January / February and only lost a couple of scheduled days of flying due to weather. One of the guys I was out there with got himself a job with Ryanair almost straight after completing the course.

"Also, it is my personal opinion that the FAA and TC training are much better than easa.
I'll get some flak for this... "

Not from here!

Phil

As a Canadian training in Europe my $0.02 (£0.0102123) is the following:

1) If you don't have a citizenship of an EU country you can basically forget it. The training will be far more expensive than Canada and your chances of getting a work VISA are 0 to forget it. The market here is too saturated for you to have any hope, really. Do the smart thing and stay in Canada. If you have an EU citizenship then give it a go, it's not as cold over here :E Further to that, however, is that if you're 100% deadset on Europe (to which I take my hat off, everyone told me to stay in Canada but I'm having the time of me life over here) is that do the training in Europe and convert to TC; the other way is extremely expensive. I don't remember the exact rules, but I think under 500hrs to convert TC>EASA you'll be spending upwards of $15,000+. To convert EASA>TC is far, far cheaper....I could be wrong so someone feel free to correct me.

2) I don't know where TheSkiingPilot gets his information and I won't accuse him of anything, but what he says about Bartolini Air is unequivocally false from my experience. The school is fantastic and I know many who have gone there and ended up at Easy, Ryanair, Wizz, Eastern and even Qatar. The weather in Poland is fine, winters aren't that bad and the summer (according to my GF) has been cooking hot and sunny for weeks. Guys are finishing their CPL/ME/IR in 6-7 weeks and then getting hired within a few months - not a bad deal if you're spending 1/3 if not less than an integrated license. They don't fool around either - I know a couple people who've gone there, are fantastic pilots and did their PPL in 45-47 hours. In Canada it seems every. single. flight school. will do a PPL in an average of 50-55 hours. Even look on this forum, everything you read about Bartolini is positive...there's a reason for that.

3) A 6 year FO making 70k at Westjet isn't working very hard....there's guys pulling way more than that. But it's not just about the money. If you can't hack the Middle East is it really worth the extra money to be that much more miserable? And the AC/WJ guys are having a great time once you do a little bit of work. 8-10 years at AC and you're in the ONE PERCENT of earners in Canada....do the math. 3rd year A320 F/O at AC, according to PPJN, and you're making mid 80s...that ain't bad at all. My Dad raised a family of 4 kids on less than that on the West Coast. And if you can't save in Canada you should go talk to a financial adviser, saving is easy there unless you're hell bent on spending all your money.


If you have any questions feel free to PM me :ok:

I wouldnt hate myself for flying here in Canada and it would be easier i completely agree however i have family living in Dubai and because its pretty much my culture and environment preference i wouldn't mind living there (having been there a few times). Honestly for me i prefer to work there and, this may not be true, but i always hear about Arab airlines not respecting FAA/TC licensing even after converting but i dont completely agree with that...

Also, the Canadian airline market is very limited, (AC replacing their Airbus's with Boeing's but not adding much aircraft) and WJ steadily adding 737 and Q400's. The market growth from a pilot's perspective is very limited im sure you could still get hired but like i said i always keep in contact with my friend at WJ and he tells me guys get in with 4000+ hrs (approx 5-7 years of hour building) and most of them are now being placed with WJ Encore on the Q400's. He says some of his friends even after 6 years are working in the North flying pipers still and most have either remained as FI's or moved on with their lives (it is a little bit of luck).

You are completely right about citizenship issues and it would pretty much be impossible and thats the only aspect thats stopping me from comsidering EASA.

Would it be impossible to even get a flight instructing job in the EU? I emailed a few flights schools just to see what what the prospect was for Non-EU citizens working under a work visa after completing an ATPL/FI program.

The safest thing i believe would be to do my training here the convert if i ever wanted to or apply to an airline in the future that doesnt require specific citizenship (i.e. flyDubai)...i guess i want to be as attarctive as possible to a ME Airline as possible!

Thanks for all your replies btw!

Also, i could just save some more money and go with a secure program like cae or ctc but they are so expensive it would take me many many years to save up even with my current job!!

I can get into more details later because I'm short on time, but I think your "fear" of having a TC license and applying to the ME are unfounded. There are a ton of American and Canadian pilots flying in the Middle East. Maybe one of them will see this thread and chime in.

My question to you is this: Why do you think going EASA and spending 2-3 years toiling as a FI will get you to the ME that much quicker than staying in Canada and getting a Twin job? I'm no hiring manager, but it seems to me flying B200s around the North is a lot more conducive to a ME pilot than dicking around in a C150 in Europe for 3 years. Without citizenship in the EU your quickest route to the ME, if that's what you want, is (barring some loophole) to stay in Canada and work your way up.

Face it, you're going to have to work your way up no matter what. Even guys going the CTC/Oxford route aren't guaranteed jobs and many are left disappointed. Sure, have the dream of flying a 777 for Emirates, but don't fool yourself - getting an EASA license won't get you there immediately. Realistically the timelines will be the same Canada vs. Europe. In your shoes, Canada would be quicker due to the VISA issue.

Keep in mind I'm only half way through my PPL so take my opinion for what it's worth - not a lot - but I've spent the better part of a decade thinking, talking with others, on these sort of things, if that means anything :cool:

You're quite right - I converted my Canadian licence to a UAE one.

Phil

Hey Phil,

I wanted to know what has been your success after converting your licensing to the GCAA?

I was born in Saudi Arabia but obviously don't have citizenship and ive been a Canadian citizen my whole life pretty much (not saying i have an advantage being of middle eastern culture) but whats the job prospects over there for flight instructing for example?

I only ask this question because my aim is to one fly for a ME airline and live there (just my preference).

I know i could earn my hours within Canada but the Canadian market especially compared to the US and other countries doesn't have much jet/multi-engine opportunities (i.e. starting off on a CRJ/ERJ early on after getting 1500+ hrs.) The U.S. has started pilot pipeline programs with American Eagle and United for pilots who have 1500 hrs+, you wont find anything like that in Canada and be lucky to even get in to Jazz early on!

I hear you about Canada, but the truth is there is little in the ME for instructing and such because they don't have too many private aircraft - there used to be a flight school at Ras Al Khaima, but that has been in and out of business several times.

Converting the licence is not impossible, but they have their own set of dodgy questions, in the UAE at least :) The Qataris are accepting EASA exams in lieu of their own (just the exams, not necessarily the licence) but I don't know what the other states are doing. Saudi seems to be very happy with an FAA licence.

Probably some sort of cadetship would be the best idea.

Phil

Very true, the Arabs dont seems have the best business models :hmm:

You're right about the single engine trap, its simply not good enough to fly a cessna for a 1000 hours and hope to land a job.... i see a few starter jobs here in Canada that dont require a ton of ME hours but obiously preference will be given to those that do...

We all know aircraft orders in the next few years, it is the most this generation has seen... Im pretty sure even the furloughed pilots wont be enough to cover the gap and that airlines will be more open to teaming up with flight schools.

IMO, i feel the airlines will have more programs like american eagle in the states, getting to 1500 hrs is the key. I JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE :sad:

i'd rather save up more money in the next few years and see whats up in a 2-3 years in the UAE/ME or even in Canada, then starting now and end up working as an instructor on a cessna for 5 years, and if i really wanted to pursue my dream in the ME, having to pay for conversion lol

there many ways to do it never one way, ill have to weigh out my options and see whats best.

Hoping for a cadet program too thats not at the CTC/CAE pricetag! :ugh:

You have to remember that flight instructors don't get paid much - it may well be better to use the money you have to hour build rather than do an FI course. An M/E rating isn't that hard to acquire and might be a useful first step. But you do need at least a CPL, so I would get studying, although some airlines don't like self-improvers. Do you really want to fly airlines? Fire fighting sounds like fun, but you will need a float rating for that, and it's a very long road.

You're right about staffing though - I know at least one major airline that could do with copilots but they aren't allowed to hire them.

Phil