ATPL theory before PPL ?
 

Hello girls & boys.

Two questions (long ones !)


1. Can I do ATPL theory BEFORE doing the practical PPL ? (And hence skip PPL theory)

Although I appreciate that ATPL theory is in a different league to PPL theory, I do not know if the legal mechanics will allow me to do the practical PPL exams without doing PPL theory, even though I might have ATPL theory all done.

Reason for my question is that while I save for my practical intensive ATPL modular (sometime next year) I have acquired a second hand set of OAA books & am pleased to say I am managing to go through them, on my own, rather well (Since Chrismas Finished & roughly understood Gen Nav,Air Law & Met. - with 1.00 hours Total Time under the belt :}). So to save time and money I thought I could skip the PPL stuff & spend the next few months hammering away at my old ATPL books & then say October time roll-on to one of the Long-distance ATPL courses ??? (I have a set of AFE PPL books as well & they just seem a thin, watered down versions of the ATPL stuff)

2. Second part of my question is whether UK CAA ATPL theory results are going to be valid in another JAR country for the purposes of doing CPL,IR & ME ??? (And hence issuing fATPL) I'm almost certain thats the case, just have not seen anything in print - would appreciate a clarification.

Thanks everyone... :)

You could 'start' the ATPL theory any time you like however to actually register and commence an official ATPL groundschool course(full time or distance learning) you must be the holder of an ICAO recognised PPL. The only exception to this is for those who do an 'integrated' course. The PPL theory is bypassed directly for ATPL theory.

That answers it then - thanks a lot :)

I will just concentrate on being "ATPL ready" when I do eventually start it..

There is not much point to that because you have to keep a log of the hours worked on the course. You can't just sign up for the course then book your brush up for the week after. And you will be paying money out for course notes twice.

You have to go through it and complete tests after every section normally.

Its a pity really because if your have any decent background in engineering and science you will have done quite a few technical subjects to death prior to starting.

Depending on place/time, the ATPL theory is/was done after the CPL. In Canada for example it is done after the CPL and 750 hours of flight last time I flew there.

Doing it after the PPL, like it's the rule now in Europe, leads to 2 main problems: you won't really understand what you memorize, even if you think you do get it. Second problem is that you will forget most of what you have studied when you will be in a position to use your ATPL (multi crew command).

When I see individuals wanting to start the ATPL theory even before the PPL makes me smile.

Theory should match any time the practice level, especially for the pilot training! But in Europe and some other place theory and practice are two strangers with no link, they are completely disconnected. That just doesn't make any sense.



If some person in charge is reading that, here is what I think:

PPL theory, then PPL licence.
CPL theory, then CPL licence.
While working as a first officer, ATPL theory, focused on captain tasks and issues, then ATPL licence.
Easy, logic and simple right? That's more or less what's happening in some countries.

Today in Europe the CPL/IR theory and ATPL theory are for the most part EXACTLY THE SAME!
And most people study the ATPL at a level there is no way they can understand all what they memorize.

Chuck-ski

The AFE books are not the best for PPL who wants to do ATPL, the Oxford PPL books are the best.
PPL and ATPL are very different, PPL is not a lighter version of ATPL, it is an ultralight version of PPL.

You must normally take your CPL/IR in same country as you did your ATPL's, with a few exceptions. You will have to apply in advance, before starting your ATPL's in the relevant country, if you are able to use ATPL's from another country.

As far as I know the most flexible country is the UK, but you will need to know in advance what you plan to do, and apply to that countries national CAA.

Cheers guys - as for starting reading ATPL books up as I said - I have not splashed out on new books, I have a set of old second hand ones & albeit its naive to think I can take it all in & understand it at this stage all I want to do is go through the lot well in advance to try & get the basic points. I do have engineering background which helps a lot.

I agree about being too early to study it proper, some stuff is just ummm.... hard to get, but what I am getting at is with me having a few months with nothing to do then it won't hurt to try & get as much as I can out of an old set of ATPL books, especially as I'm quite good at self-study - a constructive use of spare time.

Having said that, I did not know you have to log hours etc. on the proper course so thank you for the input.

In fact thanks for all the comments guys, I'm not proud, just naive & will take it all on board - glad I made you smile KAG :), but I see your point. As I said I went through Gen Nav, Air Law & Met but my head hurts & although I understood a quite lot of it at the time, if Im being honest I cant remember much of it off top of my head....:eek:.

Besides I got the feeling that a lot of the stuff just "makes more sense" when you actually have done some flying.

Thank you...:O

Are you planning residential or distance learning?

I am an ATPL instructor and will be happy to help via PM if you wish. :ok:

Oh wow ! Cheers Lightning Mate ! :D

If I'm stuck on anything I will let you know - I promise not to abuse the offer. Will only pm when I'm... :ugh:

I'm definitely planning to do Distance Learning to fit around my job. For doing the actual course I will most likely take some unpaid leave in the last stages/ brush up.

As a matter of interest. I live near Chester - what would be one of the most convenient distance ATPLs for me ? Doesn't have to be the BEST, just a good one that would be easy to get to for the 150h of classroom study, brush ups, etc. ???

At the moment I am "browsing" the OAA "First Impression, Second Edition" set of books, 2004 I think. I know loads of stuff is out of date, like the Air Law, but they were cheap :). I think learning to use the CRP-5, decode METAR, basic Comms lingo, etc. long way before starting the proper course can't do no harm, can it ?

I would say at this stage you would be wasting your time doing the ATPL stuff.
If you want to learn the basics very good, at a level above PPL, then get hold of a set of the Oxford PPL books. They will get you well prepared to start the ATPL.

Because the basic foundation will be in proper and serious PPL study. I have seen/used a couple of the AFE books for PPL, and I found them very poor, and boring.

First you need to understand and learn the basic concepts, and you will not learn that in ATPL, until you have done your PPL properly.

The subject you should study to death at PPL level is Principles of Flight and Meteorology, as these lay the most crucial foundation for your safe PPL flight, and the POF will give you good understanding for what will come when you start on the ATPL.

The Oxford PPL books, are much more extensive then PPL level, at the same time they are not so tiring to read. Advice, reading the ATPL books now would be a total waste of time for you, as you haven't done your PPL.

You got to learn to walk before you can run, or?
Anyhow best of luck.

ATPL before PPL
 

You're keen! I'm about to start studying for my ATPL and looking at distance learning too - mainly for cost reasons and so I can keep working. I'm finding it difficult to choose which school though.

Chuck-ski,

It may not have occurred to you that some of what you learn from old ATPL books might create confusion when you take PPL exams, but there is a risk of this. You can study for and knock out the PPL exams in the next few months and then you truly are ahead of the game. What you spent on the set of ATPL books wasn't much, but would have made a nice down payment on a set of current PPL books. If this is the only mistake or cost over run you have before achieving a CPL/IR though, you will be well ahead of the average wannabe :)

As for JAA ATPL exams, you can only be registered for them by an FTO, so you must enrol on a course and the fees for it will include the school's current set of books. If on an Integrated course, you must study 750 hours and this will all be built into the course and done in classroom/CBT lab. For a Modular student, the FTO has to vouch that you completed 650 hours and 10% must be done in a classroom, which is accomplished by the pre-exam brush-up courses. Some FTOs deliver more than 10% via brush-up course. The only way for the FTO to truly vouch that you undertook the 650 hours study is to have you log it. The course will be delivered in bite size parts with progress tests after each portion. If you are truly putting in the hours you say you are, you should cope reasonably well with the tests.

By the way, the reason Modular students get 100 hours taken off the study requirement is because of what they learned during their PPL. A Modular ATPL course should probably skip or merely skim piston engines for example and can start each topic where the PPL theory left off. What this means is that by laying aside the outdated ATPL books and undertaking PPL theory now, you are ticking the PPL box while simultaneously knocking out a real 100 hours of study towards the ATPL exams instead of adding an extra 100 hours or more to the total workload you will end up doing.