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Originally Posted by richpea
(Post 11359783)
I am a Brit, started my PPL on a modular route to trying to launch an aviation career at 36, in the year before the pandemic hit. I followed a completely modular path. In 12 days time I will start my type rating for a job with an airline at age 39.
So I'd completely disagree with your point of view in terms of jobs being available. I think at the moment it is actually incredibly hard to predict how airlines see the next year or so panning out, some will be conservative, some will want to have learned the lessons of the immediate post covid period and invest to be ready for rebound. Maybe some are figuring they will steal passengers from their more expensive competitors in this next year or so period. For 73DT.... In terms of age, being 50 might limit you in some ways (as no airline is looking to hire a career FO)... however, a lot of the less glamorous name airlines are also aware that they are going to lose a fair number of their younger FOs and Capts. to the big boys, whereas an older hire is likely to be more loyal. They'll see a person who might stay with them for the rest of their working life, and that'll be a good enough for them to see a potential captain. Also don't downplay the fact that the older candidates have a massive amount of experience and transferable skills on the CV. One of the differences between a 20 year old and an older pilot is, sure, career longevity. But on the flip side, if you're looking at a pile of CVs that are identical, and then a guy who's had an interesting career, collected a bunch of qualifications etc. pops out, that's not a disadvantage! At the end of the day, its really up to what you're willing to gamble. To be clear, be you 20 or 50, there is no guaranteed job at the end of the training process. The 20 year old has the advantage of more time to be able to wait, and probably less financial commitments to take care of. You as an older candidate have the advantage of a far more attractive CV in comparison to 90% of the kiddies, and the impression that you must REALLY want to do the job if you're attempting it at this age! I'd say go for it, because it's worked out for me so far. I'm sure there are people who'll say avoid like the plague because they, or people they know, didn't have a great outcome... choice is yours! Good luck! There is a stage where to modular route is not the best option for some, unless they are happy to waste 70 - 100K (with TR), and see where it leads them. Also there are many ex-pats who have been stuck abroad longer then they expected, dying to come back to UK for various reasons, and these are experienced both Captains and FO's, so getting in from the "outside" modular route is not going to be easy. Btw Ryanair are fairly ageist if you are low hours and over 40. Also important, are you willing to re-locate / commute big distances to take any job you get offered. My first job I was basically away 8 days and 2 days home, missed every important significant occasions in family life over those 2 years, Christmas Eve and Christmas day was stuck in a 2 star hotel with no heating, where all the staff had gone home at 7 Pm so no food etc. If you have been successful in business and had a "good lifestyle", this might come as a shock to you. Not every 50 year old are willing to be treated this way at this stage in their life, so you need to ask yourself are you willing to spend 4 - 5 years spending thousands of pounds, to then be treated and paid crap? And the progression from TP to Jets, is not something that happens a lot anymore, so all depends what you want. However there is no way someone starting at 50 who wants to have a shot in a good airline with ok conditions for a few years, 10 - 13 years is going to be the max, will have much chance of that going Modular that late in life. Making the choice when you are 36 / 39 vs 50 are 2 very different things, 36 I would not even categorize as "old" to start. Personally when I decided to go for it, I felt that was the latest time to do it, I would never have done it if I was 50. My personal cut off limit would have been 45 to have completed any training. |
Originally Posted by truckflyer
(Post 11360321)
There are jobs, but they are now primary going to MPL students or other flight programs, I have seen "older" candidates come through on these programs the last 12 months and straight in the company as an FO. You started your Modular route when 36, I was 40, there is some time, but if you are 50 you don't have 4 -5 years to mess around in my opinion if your goal is to get into an airline job.
There is a stage where to modular route is not the best option for some, unless they are happy to waste 70 - 100K (with TR), and see where it leads them. Also there are many ex-pats who have been stuck abroad longer then they expected, dying to come back to UK for various reasons, and these are experienced both Captains and FO's, so getting in from the "outside" modular route is not going to be easy. Btw Ryanair are fairly ageist if you are low hours and over 40. Also important, are you willing to re-locate / commute big distances to take any job you get offered. My first job I was basically away 8 days and 2 days home, missed every important significant occasions in family life over those 2 years, Christmas Eve and Christmas day was stuck in a 2 star hotel with no heating, where all the staff had gone home at 7 Pm so no food etc. If you have been successful in business and had a "good lifestyle", this might come as a shock to you. Not every 50 year old are willing to be treated this way at this stage in their life, so you need to ask yourself are you willing to spend 4 - 5 years spending thousands of pounds, to then be treated and paid crap? And the progression from TP to Jets, is not something that happens a lot anymore, so all depends what you want. However there is no way someone starting at 50 who wants to have a shot in a good airline with ok conditions for a few years, 10 - 13 years is going to be the max, will have much chance of that going Modular that late in life. Making the choice when you are 36 / 39 vs 50 are 2 very different things, 36 I would not even categorize as "old" to start. Personally when I decided to go for it, I felt that was the latest time to do it, I would never have done it if I was 50. My personal cut off limit would have been 45 to have completed any training. At the end of the day the big thing I do agree with you on is that its really about how fast you are willing and able to progress your training as an older pilot, what you're willing to risk in terms of the life you already have, and how open your eyes are to the realities of being a new low hours airline pilot and that your employer (should you get one) is going to expect you to make the same sacrifices and moves as the guys who've just left 6th form college. |
Originally Posted by richpea
(Post 11360574)
I'm not saying you don't have some points to consider, but I also think you paint an overly bleak picture.
At the end of the day the big thing I do agree with you on is that its really about how fast you are willing and able to progress your training as an older pilot, what you're willing to risk in terms of the life you already have, and how open your eyes are to the realities of being a new low hours airline pilot and that your employer (should you get one) is going to expect you to make the same sacrifices and moves as the guys who've just left 6th form college. Sure your CV might seem more "interesting", equally they know you arrive with a lot more "luggage", family, kids and a life outside aviation. In addition it might be easier to train "young" pilots instead of "older" pilots, as we often don't have the same time to dedicate to the job as might be expected. Also consider example first job if you are lucky at 52, you will work the first 4-5 years for peanuts in most companies. If you only have few years left to retirement, would the company be eager to upgrade you to Captain? Many companies are looking for pilots they can "mould" in a certain way of thinking and culture, I believe that if you start aiming for an airline career in your early 50's, you are unfortunately on the wrong end of the drag curve. In the end is you choice what you decide to do, is your life and your money. However expect it to end up into nothing, that is the reality, unless you change your goals and expectations and can see other career paths that are not within the airlines. |
Originally Posted by truckflyer
(Post 11362183)
I am trying to paint a realistic picture, applying for your first job at 52 -53 years old for an airline, is not going to be easy. Specially for one of the better companies. What you want to hear and reality are 2 very different things. If you are willing to invest over Ģ100.000 at this age early 50's, you need to understand there is very little chance you will ever get this back.
Sure your CV might seem more "interesting", equally they know you arrive with a lot more "luggage", family, kids and a life outside aviation. In addition it might be easier to train "young" pilots instead of "older" pilots, as we often don't have the same time to dedicate to the job as might be expected. Also consider example first job if you are lucky at 52, you will work the first 4-5 years for peanuts in most companies. If you only have few years left to retirement, would the company be eager to upgrade you to Captain? Many companies are looking for pilots they can "mould" in a certain way of thinking and culture, I believe that if you start aiming for an airline career in your early 50's, you are unfortunately on the wrong end of the drag curve. In the end is you choice what you decide to do, is your life and your money. However expect it to end up into nothing, that is the reality, unless you change your goals and expectations and can see other career paths that are not within the airlines. |
Originally Posted by richpea
(Post 11362184)
Yes, people making the career change towards the end of their working life should definitely be doing it with their eyes open... this of course applies for pretty much any career if you are changing post 50 years old, I've heard the same advice you're giving related to older folks wanting to get into academia, archaeology and teaching. I guess the point is, do it if you're doing it for the experience and satisfaction of doing it and maybe fulfilling a life long dream. Maybe don't try it if you're expecting it to pay itself back financially or in terms of career security?
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73DT Would flight instruction or some kind of GA work be of interest?
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Before aviation took the Covid nosedive, the general attitude seemed to be "if you really want it, have the means and are flexible, you will be able to fly for a living". Also people at 40yo and older were getting this type of response a lot.
Itīs remarkable that this has flipped almost 180 degrees. Lots of discouraging replies to the older wannabes lately. This is not to say that they are not justified; could be entirely correct. I just noticed how the whole outlook has changed. Itīs sad really. I liked those years when openness to biographical change had become such a normalcy (not only in terms of career). |
Originally Posted by Krautwald
(Post 11365186)
Before aviation took the Covid nosedive, the general attitude seemed to be "if you really want it, have the means and are flexible, you will be able to fly for a living". Also people at 40yo and older were getting this type of response a lot.
Itīs remarkable that this has flipped almost 180 degrees. Lots of discouraging replies to the older wannabes lately. This is not to say that they are not justified; could be entirely correct. I just noticed how the whole outlook has changed. Itīs sad really. I liked those years when openness to biographical change had become such a normalcy (not only in terms of career). There is a big difference to start at 40 or 50. "if you really want it" vs reality, you choose what you want to hear many times. And of course Covid changed a lot, many peoples career progress stopped / paused, and these are now all delayed 3 - 4 years in the career progress. It does seem much of the "backlog" is being cleared up, but those who had their training postponed in 2020, are now having it completed and getting into many of they jobs they were promised. If you want it presented with rose tinted glasses, great, but don't cry after you spent Ģ100K and you are in your mid 50's, and the best job you can get is FI job making Ģ20K a year. If you are starting in your 50's, be real of what you possibly can achieve, early 40's and you have the means, sure go for it. There are people coming on here in their mid 30's thinking they are old to start, which they are not. The "to old" becomes relevant once you have rounded 45 - 50 and have still not got hours, medical or any ratings. At that stage it becomes a gamble, and if you do it at least try those dreaded schools who gets you straight into a job when your training has been completed. I know in the UK recently there were a few companies recruiting FO's, they all wanted type rated FO's with hours on type, I know because I have friends who have thousands of hours but on the wrong type, and they could not apply. The backlog is huge, and there are many very qualified pilots who are waiting to fil those jobs. Who would the airline hire? A 50 year old with 10.000 hours on business jets, or a 50 year old with Zero hours and no TR? I would say the situation at the moment is not that companies are not hiring, but they like their "sausage factory" cadets, who gets trained and mentored like they want them. They will arrive at fairly high standard, be happy to accept substandard conditions for 4 - 5 years while they gain experience. I myself went modular, but recently I have not seen many modular students been hired, as they simply don't qualify to even apply. Maybe RYR and Wizz do, but heavy competition to get in, and RYR are definitely an ageist company once you have passed 40. If you can accept to have no expectations of getting any well paid job after your Ģ100K investment, then go for it. (if you are over 50) |
The demands of the syllabus, flying skills, focus etc. would for many over 50+ I think be somewhat demanding and I'd expect huge attrition rates during the training phase... so even getting through would be pretty admirable and that is before the T/R.
A guess but perhaps less than one in a hundred newly minted CPL's seeking an airline position are over 50, so stick out you most certainly will. |
This is actually a very interesting thread as I'm in exactly that position. 48 currently and after having spent 30 years behind a desk building a very successful business I'm feeling its now time to go fly for a living before its too late.
Not exactly starting from scratch though, gained my PPL at 20, CPL at 30 and fortunate to now have about 1100hrs, with150hrs multi / IFR time gained flying my light twin for business trips and pleasure so plenty of real world experience flying up and down the country single pilot IFR in a 6 lever twin (think one armed paper hanger!). By the time I negotiate my company exit, redo my ATPLS (long expired) plus all the other bits MCC / UPRT etc I'm likely to be very close to 50. I've made my money now thought so would be more than happy seeing out my days flying a Turboprop around north of the border with a bit of instructing on the side. Yes I'm old and crusty but wondering if my real world IFR twin flying and a bunch of hours might make my CV stand out a bit Vs a freshly minted CPL holder with 300hrs or whether, as has been mentioned previously, most airlines would much prefer someone they can mould from scratch and my experience is actually more of a hindrance? Regards UA |
Originally Posted by Unusual Attitude
(Post 11387270)
This is actually a very interesting thread as I'm in exactly that position. 48 currently and after having spent 30 years behind a desk building a very successful business I'm feeling its now time to go fly for a living before its too late.
Not exactly starting from scratch though, gained my PPL at 20, CPL at 30 and fortunate to now have about 1100hrs, with150hrs multi / IFR time gained flying my light twin for business trips and pleasure so plenty of real world experience flying up and down the country single pilot IFR in a 6 lever twin (think one armed paper hanger!). By the time I negotiate my company exit, redo my ATPLS (long expired) plus all the other bits MCC / UPRT etc I'm likely to be very close to 50. I've made my money now thought so would be more than happy seeing out my days flying a Turboprop around north of the border with a bit of instructing on the side. Yes I'm old and crusty but wondering if my real world IFR twin flying and a bunch of hours might make my CV stand out a bit Vs a freshly minted CPL holder with 300hrs or whether, as has been mentioned previously, most airlines would much prefer someone they can mould from scratch and my experience is actually more of a hindrance? Regards UA I don't know the current TP market, but I do understand that it is very hard to get a Jet job from TP, as many airlines unfortunately no longer appreciate this experience. So have realistic expectations of where and how far you might go. If I was you, I would take my ratings required and start applying, while still keeping my business running. You might get lucky, also most TP companies are not taking their pilots from the "sausage factories" I am slightly more positive since you already have that amount of hours, but expect that you might get stuck in TP for most or all of your career. So there is limited returns on your investment, but if this does not matter then why not give it a go. The problem with the "sausage factories", is that most there are already guaranteed a job with an operator as part of their selection process. Unless we see a sudden shortage of flight crew, I don't think there will be many from outside this. BA, Virgin, Easy, Wizz and Jet2 have recruiting a lot, but all for people with hours and TR / experience. Ryanair are definitely slightly "ageist" based on personal experience. But if you are happy with TP and instructing, I do think you would have a fair chance at this stage. |
Age is only a problem if you tell them how old you are, so remove that from your CV.
If they want a 'freshly minted' fATPL then only give them the date of your Exam passes and MCC course. If you think they want 200 hours and that your hours will count against you, write 1100 as '200+' |
Originally Posted by Unusual Attitude
(Post 11387270)
By the time I negotiate my company exit, redo my ATPLS (long expired) plus all the other bits MCC / UPRT etc
You don't actually need the ATPL exams until you move to the left seat, so you can start flying with just the CPL/IR and MCC etc.. |
Originally Posted by truckflyer
(Post 11388031)
You are not starting from scratch, but slightly late, so that is better then many others of course, all depends for what jobs.
I don't know the current TP market, but I do understand that it is very hard to get a Jet job from TP, as many airlines unfortunately no longer appreciate this experience. So have realistic expectations of where and how far you might go. If I was you, I would take my ratings required and start applying, while still keeping my business running. You might get lucky, also most TP companies are not taking their pilots from the "sausage factories" I am slightly more positive since you already have that amount of hours, but expect that you might get stuck in TP for most or all of your career. So there is limited returns on your investment, but if this does not matter then why not give it a go. The problem with the "sausage factories", is that most there are already guaranteed a job with an operator as part of their selection process. Unless we see a sudden shortage of flight crew, I don't think there will be many from outside this. BA, Virgin, Easy, Wizz and Jet2 have recruiting a lot, but all for people with hours and TR / experience. Ryanair are definitely slightly "ageist" based on personal experience. But if you are happy with TP and instructing, I do think you would have a fair chance at this stage. |
Hello everyone.
Putting this message out to get an honest view based on current climate etc. I’m 42, work in Cyber Security and decided to change direction and do something I was going to do in my college years. You guess it, become a commercial pilot. I will be most definitely going down the modular route as I need the income etc. I am visiting the aviation open day next month to et an idea of the schools and see which one gives me a good vibe. However there is one thing that keeps bothering me and holding me back slightly…..my age. Have I left it too late? |
Definitely not. My friend was on an EasyJet course with 2 45 y/o's. Step 1 go for a trial flight if you haven't done so. Step 2, get a medical. Oh and seriously ask yourself about studying whilst working full time towards the ATPL exams as they take over your life.
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Unusual Attitude, if you maintained a current IR your ATPL exams will remain valid? So you may find you do not need to resit. If you have never let an IR lapse by more than 7 years you will find they are still current.
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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer
(Post 11428607)
Unusual Attitude, if you maintained a current IR your ATPL exams will remain valid? So you may find you do not need to resit. If you have never let an IR lapse by more than 7 years you will find they are still current.
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Apologies Rudestuff noticed you posted the same earlier on, I should remember to scroll up in future.
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To be fair I rarely read anything either!
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