If the course of study - even a 'short' course results in some form of certificate or qualification etc then it requires the appropriate visa. If the study is such that it does not result in a certificate/qualification then the status quo applies. However, as you see, Flight Training is specifically called out as an example in that letter and makes no reference to what is deemed a short course. The fact that it results in a qualification is what matters.

I fail to understand why folk make such a big deal of getting a visa - it costs around $300 which in the grand scheme of flight training is a drop in the ocean.

I have no argument with the requirement made of an alien to enter the US under the appropriate nonimmigrant academic or vocational visa for a non-trivial "course of study." The language used in the INA at 101(15)(B) states clearly that a person must not be coming to the US under a B-class visa for the purpose of undertaking a course of study and the memorandum references 8 CFR 248.1(c) which now requires anyone on a B visa to change status to an M- or F-class visa, as appropriate, prior to beginning a "course of study."

The problem lies in the explicit interpretation given to "full course of study" as mentioned in the above post. While 8 CFR 248.1(c) does not discriminate between a "full course of study" and "course of study" and therefore applies generally to all non-trivial courses, the INA at 101(15)(M) explicitly states "full course of study" and a definition of it is provided for in 214.2(m)(9)(iii).

1. An alien intending to embark on any non-trivial "course of study" must do so under an M- or F- visa.

2. An M- or F- visa requires the alien to engage in a "full course of study."

3. A "full course of study" precludes short courses such as a night qualification.

Why doesn't the DOJ seek an amendment of the wording of 214.2(m)(9)(iii) to reduce the threshold minimum studying hours to permit a short course such as a night qualification to fall within the definition of a "full course of study" as mandated by the INA? None of that changes the fact that an M- or F-class visa is required for a short course but the "terms and conditions" of an M-class visa do not allow for them.

What they are saying is that Flight Training leading to a qualification requires the visa - period. The letter that I pointed to above makes no reference to the distinction between "short" or not - simply that a vocational course that leads to a qualification requires the M1 visa.
For an F1 visa - yes because those folks are attending one of the handful of academic schools for 2 years or so - but not for an M1.
Plenty of folk come to the US to attend one of the Florida based schools and get their Private in 21-28 days. Even allowing 55 hours to complete - it only averages 14 hours or so a week - but they still require a M1.
It is still a "full course of study".

The memorandum does not need to specify every detail pertaining to those visa classes.

The primary M-class is established under the INA at 101(a)(15)(M)(i) with the following language:

INA 101(a)(15)(M)(i) an alien [...] who seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of pursuing a full course of study at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution (other than in a language training program) in the United States [...]

The definition provided for "full course of study," at 8 CFR 214.2(m)(9) as aforementioned, states "A 'full course of study' as required by section 101(a)(15)(M)(i) of the Act means [...]"

It's a fine point but a night qualification falls short of the threshold meaning it cannot in the overwhelming majority of cases, on its own, be pursued under an M visa. Unless one argues that the minimum time requirement can be pro-rated. The rule should be modified.

Suffice it to say that anybody considering coming to the US for the purpose of getting a JAA night qualification that takes maybe 2 days at most - must be certifiable.

I am not arguing about whether various material should or should not be modified.
I am simply stating that training leading to a certification is considered 'more involved' and treated as a full course of study - as per that letter. The fact that Flight Training was specifically called out as such is itself indicative.

After reading this and other threads on here there seems to be a difference of opinion.

I have found a flying school that I would like to attend in order to gain my FAA/IR. They are not SEVIS approved. They have told me they could train me.

Does not being SEVIS approved completely rule them out for me or do I just need to get a different kind of VISA?

To be SEVIS approved the Flight School has to first be a FAA Part 141 School. That shows that they meet certain criteria laid down by the FAA including having fully audited training plan for every course that they wish to undertake. The FAA also make visits to ensure compliance etc. As a result, the Student is given certain privileges in terms of a reduced number of hours to attain a certificate etc. Also a student can immediately on completion of a FAA private cert- go immediately into a Part 141 Instrument rating without the need for the pre-req flight hours that would be required under the lesser Part 61 course etc.

Once a School has Part 141 approval - they can if they wish then go and apply to the USCIS for SEVIS approval which allows them to train overseas schools who need a visa for Flight Training typically a M1 visa. Although there are a small number of Flight "Academies" who area able to sponsor a F1 visa.

Getting Part 141 and then later getting SEVIS approval costs a Flight School many of thousands of $$ in time, effort, training of Instructors etc and FAA auditing. That's why some Schools don't go to the effort.

Long story short - if you are a foreigner and wishing to train for a FAA cert then you really need a M1 visa. Some Flight Schools may tell you otherwise but if you are 'caught' and found to be in breach of your immigration status you are responsible not the Flight School.
The TSA also require that you specify the visa type/number when applying for TSA clearance and they also provide the statement on their own website that if you are later found to be in breach, they will terminate the TSA approval etc.

To be honest - for the sake of $200-$300 for a visa - why take the risk and why go to a non SEVIS school who have not proven themselves able to meet the requirements?

How long were you planning to be in the US for this training and what training were you considering? Take a look at EASA, EFT etc - they all provide the ability to handle the visa paperwork. (This is not a recommendation for these Schools) - plus you can get a JAA license in parallel. Especially with the new Euro regs indicating a JAA license will be mandatory for Euro citizens.

Thanks for the reply.

I have done some IR training in the UK towards my FAA IR and wanted to go and finish the training and do my test. I don't mind paying the fees for the VISA etc. The reason I want to use the school I have seen is I would have free accomodation nearby with family and the school have also quoted me a good price.

You should review FAR 61.65 regarding training towards an FAA IR.
Whether you choose to use the non approved Flight School is your call . You are at least aware.
This other recent thread on the subject of legalities points out what can happen. http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post6941529

Will you have access to a N reg when back in Europe in order to exercise the FAA IR? (until EASA change the regs for Euro residents).

Thanks, so is it legal to finish my IR at a school, that is not SEVIS Part 141 etc. Does this only apply to full courses of training. It would be useful to use this school but I dont want to do it if I risk getting into trouble.

Is there a definitve answer to this or is it a grey area?

It is not really a grey area - I think you are trying to make it so.
You are coming to the US for flight training leading to a certificate/rating. You need TSA and officially need a M1 visa and hence require a Part 141 and SEVIS approved school.
At the end of the day it is entirely up to you if you choose to go some other route.
Did you read this link further up this thread?
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post6841179

The fact that you have done some training in the UK is irrelevant and presumably that training was not done with a FAA Authorized Instructor (as defined in FAR 61.1) because officially you should have got TSA clearance before starting any FAA related training - even if it is undertaken outside the US.
You need to review 61.65 to determine how much training you need to complete with the FAA Authorized Instructor as some of what you have done may not qualify.

What are the longer term intentions of the FAA IR? Are you planning to go on to Commercial etc with the view to trying to work in the US?

Hi

I have no plans to work in the USA and will be converting it to a JAR IR eventually.

PEA
 

Hi , thinking of applying to PEA in Florida this year...from you thread you sound displeased. I've been to their web site and they kinda looks cool and all.What is your experience so i don't fall into issues.Its a lot of investment.

What other flights schools in the USA can you recommend to me that can give me a reliable and affordable training to become a successful airline pilot.

:ok:

To answer that you need to indicate what authorities license/certificates you are looking to train for. FAA, JAA etc. and that is somewhat determined by where you are able to live and work etc.

Visa requirements for IR doing accellerated flight training
 

Hi,
I'm new and maybe my question has still found an answer:
having a JAA PPL, converted to FAA PLL a wishing to do the FAA IR in the US, I decided to do the training with AFIT. It's a 10-day programm (part 61). They state that it's a accellerated programm and that none of their clients (from Europe) have attained an M1 visa.
Does this sounds right?

Go with what Proudprivate says below as it sounds like he's speaking from experience. Great advice!

Good luck on your IR

check with the embassy !
 

Best advice : check with your local US consular officer and ask, preferably in writing (e-mail), so that you have something on paper in case an immigration officer asks.

My personal experience with short accelerated programs is that US immigration requires either an M1 or a B1 or a B2 VISA. However, to get by on a B1/B2, it should be made credible that you 're not going to be longer in the US than about 2-3 weeks (at least not for training).

The more it sounds like a complete flight training programme, the more likely the need for an M1 is (to be obtained, at an extra cost and some hassle, through a SEVIS approved school sponsored application). A 10-day instrument rating without any previous training sounds ambitious.

The flight school obviously has a conflict of interest, and some of them are unethical in their advice. Being in the wrong immigration status is not a light matter. But for a short (finishing up ?) programme like that, it is not unlikely that all their European students came in on B1 or B2. Please note that the VISA waiver programme would not do the trick here (both the us govt website and correspondence with the US Embassy in Brussels confirm this).

Also don't forget the TSA category 3 application, which is mandatory for the instrument rating.

Any FAA Part 61 School who is not Part 141/SEVIS approved will have no clue as to the USCIS regulations on immigration requirements.
That is why they are NOT SEVIS approved to issue I0-20 paperwork for a visa.

What are your longer term intentions once you have a FAA certificate - back in Italy if and when the new EASA rules come into force - when the FAA certs may become 'worthless'?

I beg to differ. Whilst they will not be in a position to issue an I-20 form and might not offer flight training as a normal pilot factory would, some (if not most) of them are very well informed about immigration requirements.

Not all are entirely honest, though, and there have been that deliberately give erroneous information to get more business. That being said, I believe in your case, the flight school is credible.


That is a bit of an overstatement, at best. A thread drift, for sure. Clearly FAA certificates will retain their value after EASA rules come into force.

From what I remember from my own experience, you need to have an M1 visa to train full time, meaning more than 17hours a month.
Man, hit the books in order to be ready for the written, take a month off, and go do your IR with a part 141 school. I don't believe much in that part 61 10 day thing. (unless you already have your 50hour cross country done, and some instrument time,but the again

Thanks for all your advice.
I'm interested in getting a better and safer private pilot. That's why I'm thinking to go for the IR. I had some instrument (JAA) dual time and regularly fly an N-registered aircraft here in Italy.
As I can't take 1 month off from work for the IR training I need a "fast-track" syllabus to be done in 10-14 days. The knowledge test will be done in the UK before going to the US.
I'm not fixed on a part 61 school, and I'm not trying to "trick" the system, going on the visa waiver program, but nevertheless I'm looking for the official informations and it seems not easy to find it in writing, just opinions.
I'll be very thankfull to everybody who could help me.

A programme to follow for the OP would be :

1. Write to the US Consular Officers in Milan, San Marino, Rome, Naples or Florence

describing the flight training (finishing up) you wish to do and getting a confirmation whether a B1/B2 visa is sufficient.

You will, after some delay, get the necessary response (such as the one below - which was for finishing up an FAA PPL in Florida):

2. Make an appointment with the consulate near you. They nowadays charge for the call (about €15) to make the appointment.

3. For a 10-14 day finishing up programme as you are going for, it makes sense to do sufficient training and get the necessary aeronautical experience beforehand (this can be done by a JAA instructor). If you decide to hire an FAA instructor, you need to get authorised through the TSA.

4. Contact the part 61 flight instruction operator you wish to complete your training with. Tell them you are in the process of obtaining the necessary B1/B2 visa but want to clear the TSA procedure with them. Ask for the training course name and number to be filled out on the TSA website www.flightschoolcandidates.gov

5. Arrange flights / hotel / rental car etc... when you have both your visa and the TSA approval.

2 hrs SIM
 

dear gents,

after reading all 8 pages of this very helpfull thread, i have not found a final answer applying to my case:

I intend to go to CAE to dry-lease a simulator for 2 hrs for a JAA training event.
CAT 4 - more than 12500lbs - so the training provider has to apply for TSA clearence for me - and I have to go through the TSA process - correct? (did it 2009 for the initial)

VISA: can I enter the US on VWP or on my B1/B2 visum? (simulator only - 2 hrs)

what if: my company intends to send me as an JAA TRE to sit on the controls of the sim/or next to the CAE sim operator to check other pilots?
TSA/VISA etc..

i have talked to different people, giving me different answers - I am aware that collegues of mine had some trouble doing the same before..


(to make it even more complicated: i have a FAA ATP, but do not intend to make a recurrent on this ticket by now)

thx for your help, gents
rgds
welle

Welle,

There is strictly no non-academic vocational student visa available for you. This is a shortcoming in US law. On the previous page of this thread you'll see where I have highlighted this problem which affects 'courses of study' having fewer hours than the minima required.

A B-visa, subject both to a clarified interpretation of the INA and to an amendment in US law summarised in the DOJ memorandum (linked by Gomrath), is not available to aliens entering the US to undertake a 'course of study.' The VWP is similarly inappropriate.

A pragmatic view must at some point be taken in spite of the minimum threshold on hours of studying per week required in part satisfaction of the M visa rules. In your position I would apply for an M visa anyway. The only sensible reason I can see for there being a minimum number of hours per week is to prevent aliens entering the US for prolonged periods, notionally studying, but in reality engaging in labour.

Best of luck.

Schools approved for F-1 visa.
 

Hello everybody!
I apologize if I apply with a bit wrong thread, but do me a favor please …I’m going to take zero-hero course (correct?) i.e. to get PPL, CPL, ME, IR and gain 1500 TT as fast as possible . But I’m facing some difficulties, I cant find schools which are approved for F-1 visa (to gain 1000-1500 hrs). There should be about eight schools in States, I found one only, Aviator Flight Training Academy (Fort Pierce) which is not 100% satisfy me.
All information about F-1 visa approved pilot schools will be appreciated .

Try Flight Safety Academy. Aerosim Academy. University of North Dakota. Aviator.edu:ok:

Thanks for replay. Do you know what people do say about these schools? Especially wondering about aviator.edu . Can't find students opinions.

Yet another question about non-sevis schools..
 

Hi guys, another spin on the non-sevis schools theme.. could you get an M1 visa through an approved school, complete the course then do additional training somewhere else now that you're in the country on a visa? - assuming you get TSA clearance for that course...

Proudprivate : A B1/B2 is NOT acceptable and actually explicitly prohibited :

No you cannot. You are in the US on a visa sponsored by the Flight School. Their name is on the visa. Leave that School and you are out of status. You need to transfer your visa BEFORE you give up that School and you need a new TSA submission request fgor the new School (if the course requires TSA approval). The new School also needs to be a SEVIS approved School in order to receive the changed visa,

F-1 visa and afterwards...
 

Aviator Flight Training College offer F1 visas for 24 months, the actual training is for 6 months and rest of time you can build up your multi engine hours as flight instructor with them.

www.aviator.edu

does anyone have a knowledge about this college and what are the prospects in regards to the visa extention as work permit and job if anyone wants to extend the visa for further employment.

i am a foreign national in the UK, currently hold JAA PPL, recently had my class 1 medical at gatwick and want to be a career pilot, and willing to relocate anywhere in the world for training.

@ Gomrath - think you may be correct with this in majority but not all scenarios.

Consider this:
Step 1: Do your private with M1 & TSA from SEVIS approved school.
Step 2: Rent an aircraft following completion of your private to fly around:
I do not believe that has to be at the same school?

You are not undertaking any kind of studying.

Obviously if you are doing an IR this could not be done at another school without visa change & TSA

Name change in Sevis Receipt
 

Hi All,

I have recently paid my Sevis Fee and I have entered my Last name incorrectly
I have sent the mail to the team requesting to change my Last Name
Is there any chance that this could be changed ?

BigGrecian
 

If you're throwing CFR Title 8 Part 214 at the members of this forum, it would be helpful if you had read the entire bit, not just the ones that suit you.

You might want to read how the CFR defines "Course of Study".
Now a lot of posters on this forum have a specific conflict of interest in that they are either UK flight instructors that hate to see people take flight lessons in the US; or US flight instructors at a SEVIS school that face competition from non-SEVIS schools for the short partial courses or finish up programs I was talking about.

In addition, the rules and regulations that apply and could apply are many, which makes it very easy to confuse matters, thinking that you are in the clear when you are not or thinking that you need to jump additional hoops when you don't.

So, my advice to all of you is still to check with your consular officer at your nearby US consulate or embassy, explain the situation and ask whether a B1/B2 visa is sufficient for the purpose. I have done so, and got a written confirmation before I was interviewed.

The reason you need a written confirmation is precisely because not every immigration officer is aware of every rule. As a matter of fact, the last time I went there for a finish up and checkride, the immigration officer claimed that I didn't need the B1/B2, and that a visa waiver / esta would have sufficed. That is in contradiction with information you find on the US State Department website, where they say that any short course enrollment requires at least a B2.

Bottom line : you don't want to complicate your life if you don't have to, but you also want to cover your bases if you need to.

I must say I'm a bit fed up with all this stupid scaremongering. We all should strive to help out fellow pilots and fellow students whatever stage in their career or whatever their level of competence.

Re read what rudestuff wrote.. He refers to undertaking 'additional training' - he make no mention of "flying around".
So your scenario does not come into play based on the question asked.

The reference that BigGrecian is making regarding B1/B2 visas is here from a document from the Department of Justice.
www.eandvh.com/engine/pubs/getdoc.aspx?id=40&dl=1

True, not disputing that. think its just a matter of semantics.

rudestuff did not specify what kind of training he was referring to.
obviously IFR/ME etc. are not permitted. (and thats what he probably meant,yes)

but renting a plane at another school to do practice approaches after getting an IR would feel like is additional training to me... and should be fine and legal under visa requirements.

To clarify, my example would be someone who wanted to do a PPL and an IR.

A Sevis registered school is likely to be more expensive than one which is not, so I was wondering if you could use them to get the M1 visa and do the PPL training - then once you've finished and have 30 days to leave the country, get the IR done at a cheaper school (The ones in the Midwest seem to be half the price of the Florida ones) Sounds like it's a no then!

Rubbish, there is absolutely no evidence to substantiate that claim.
In order for a school to be SEVIS approved it needs to be FAA Part 141 approved. This has to do with more stringent record keeping requirements.

Besides, under Part 141 you can do the IR right after the PPL, with Part 61 you need 50 hrs of PIC Cross country time before you can take your IFR checkride.
So per definition, a Part 141 PPL+ IR is 50 hrs. cheaper then a Part 61 PPL+ IR.
I'll leave it to you to add it up....


The school were you do your PPL is required to notify SEVIS that you training is completed. You are therefore no longer allowed to undertake any training since the training for which the visa was issued has been completed.
What you suggest will get you a visit from TSA and ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) followedd by a free trip to the airport for your return home.
Keep in mind that immigration violations will get you on the "No Entry" list for up to 10 years.

Here's the good news:
You may change schools and keep the original visa if you decide to do so WITHIN 6 MONTHS of entering the USA.
You originally choose school A for your training and after 3 months you feel you may be better off by moving to school B.
School A is REQUIRED to transfer you to school B in the SEVIS system.
School B will issue the necessary paperwork, accept you in SEVIS and the training merrily carries on at school B.
Obviosly school B also needs to be SEVIS approved.

Training with no certificate?
 

Hi all. This thread has been extremely useful to me in searching for answers to my situation, but I'm still a little confused.

I'm an Indian citizen pursuing full-time flight training in India (CPL-ME-IR). We're going to have weather-related time off for two-three months from Jun-Sep (the monsoon season), and there will hardly be any flying that takes places. I was considering visiting a very close friend in the US during that period (two months - Jul to Aug), and undertaking some training while there. The flying bit is not going to be my main purpose of visit but a nice extra if feasible.

I've presently flown 75 hours in India, 36 dual and 29 solo, but don't have a PPL certificate. For that I need to fly a 150nm navigation flight with two full-stop landings. With the prevailing weather conditions here we're not allowed to go beyond 125nm. Considering all that I might need to get trained a little about the US airspace differences and maybe in variations in navigation procedures.

The school I've spoken-to are saying that my Indian hours will count towards an FAA PPL. Since I've already flown more than the minimums for an FAA PPL, I'm assuming I might only need to fly a few checkrides with a CFI at the school, and spend some ground-time for the navigation exercises, apart from actually flying the nav-exes.

Will I require an M1 visa for these? I'm guessing all this will not take me more than 15 hours of flying. I have a valid B1/B2 on my passport, and have visited the US previously in 2010.

I'm going to get the TSA authorisation for sure under the AFSP, but am unsure about the visa requirements. I'm willing to not apply for a PPL if that allows me to get-by on the B2. What I learn is more valuable to me than a certificate. Will Part 61 schools be open to me in case the B2 works?

You assume incorrectly.
You will a FAA Medical and you must complete the FAA written exam. The FAA Checkride also consists of ane indepth oral exam which you have to pass before completing the actual flight portion.
The thread provides all the information that you need on what the visa requirements are. If you are still confused - best read it again and read the attachment that I provided in my previous post.