Real Quickie - Yes /No Advice
 

Very quick background:

• Age 34, always dreamed of being a pilot
• Year ago achieved PPL in South Africa - currently have 75 hours
• PPL confirmed what I always knew - I want to be a pro!!
• Seperated from wife been trying to sell house for +18 months
• If we get the near asking price would have sufficient equity to pay for majority of training
• House now being rented and i'm in a rent free situation
• Have a good job in financial services which does not really interest me with long commute (5 hours each day)

Issue:
I'm at the point of saying, I can't wait any longer for the credit crunch to end and the housing market to recover - i'm not getting any younger!!. I'll find some credit (I have a few ideas), quit the job, go modular and hopefully have a licence by the time the upturn comes around again. At that point I should be able to sell the house and pay off the credit. If I don't try I'll never know!!

Question:
Is my logic flawed and would you do it - Yes/No

Cheers
Llen

Hi Llen
 

Hi Llen, I hope the following points help!

1 The present economic crisis is worsening by the day and may get a lot worse before recovery.
2 There is a very substantial number of type-rated and experienced pilots looking for jobs at the moment - plus a mountain of young FATPL holders.
3 In all likelyhood, you will be 37(ish) by the time you have your FATPL/IR etc.
Your age won't automatically bar you from getting that first job (plenty
have done so in the past) but it won't exactly add to the appeal of your CV
4 My humble view is that, when recovery starts, you may have to wait a
considerable time (maybe a couple of years?) for the pool of younger/more
experienced drivers to be taken up before you become attractive to
recruiters. That could conceivably be 2012 or even later!

On the other hand who knows? Clearly you have a dream and the resources to follow it.. and it seems that you won't go hungry any time soon.

Whatever you decide, good luck to you. bm

Personally I would only gamble with my own cash, that I can afford to lose. And what you are contemplating is a big gamble in many ways.

Your house has been for sale since before the credit crunch. You might get no where near your asking price. Without knowing the full details of your finacial status, it seems like a risky strategy.

A lot of people have a flawed logic when it comes to wanting to be an airline pilot. It's not glamourous, it doesn't pay well, it aint job secure, and at the moment there are too many experienced pilots chasing too few jobs.

If I were in your shoes, I would NOT do it.

StraightLevel.

Yes !! You only live once.

Thanks to you guys that have posted so far - I really appreciate your views.

I must admit this industry really does frustrate me as I'm sure it frustrates the majority of you guys. It's the only one I know where you have to fund your own training, take all the risk without the knowledge of being able to secure a job at the end of it. But on the other hand someone has to fly the planes.

What I surely know is that I'll never live my dream by sitting on my @rse in financial services.

Just to pick up on a few points from the respondants so far to stimulate the debate further:

1. I don't know anyone with £40 - £50k of there own money that they can afford to lose - so there must be some risk/gamble involved somewhere.

2. I have a figure in my head that I'll sell my house for so I'll not give it away. This figure will go a long way to paying for training. If it takes 3/4 years so be it I'll rent it out in the menatime. Ultimately I have a tangible assest that I can trade (at some point) to pay for training.

3. I know there is a popular myth that flying is glamourous the pay is good. I know it's more glamorous than actuarial science and ultimately pays as much or even more.

4. Finally you've got to have confidence in yourself that you are going to succeed surely. I know my age is against when compared to the younger guys but I have lots of qualities that they don't.

Anyway thanks again and please keep your thoughts coming.

Llen

Come back to South Africa. I'll train you and fill your log book with hours for a lot less than in the UK / Europe :ok:

Lien,

Just GO FOR IT, i'm in kind of the same situation as you, divorced, 34 in March, completed PPL & ATPLS last year. Starting on Monday for CPL/ME/IR hope to be finished by April.

May not be the best time commence training but when is. Your only here once Lien.

My way of thinking is " i would rather try and fail than not to have tried at all"

:ok:

Cue a million and one PMs!

Llen,

buzzc152's advice seems reckless with its lack of detail. I don't think quick yes/no answers are going to be a big help to you here. In fact, they might misslead you.

Danny C's logic is why you need to be prepared to walk away from a life changing sum of money.

Not so long ago I was in a vaguely similar situation as yourself with regard to age and having to make a commitment to training to be a pilot or to stay in my existing business.

I chose to train as back in 2004 it was a far brighter outlook, and I was prepared to walk away from £60k+ of investment as even then it was a risk. Don't forget that you have to invest time to train as well during which you will not be earning a penny.

If I had to make the same descission now, I would not be training, as the chances of getting a job at the end of it are getting increasingly slimmer, and the chances of having to walk away from your investment are getting increasingly larger.

I now fly a turbo-prop in the right hand seat on a poor salary only just struggling by financially, and I am the lucky one. Some of my peers never got flying jobs, some are instructors earning a lot less than myself. Career progression is non existant at the moment as no one is moving on up the ladder so as a result what I will earn throughout my aviation career has now reduced.

Financially it has not been a clever move but I do enjoy my job.

You're doing the right thing asking advice before you commit, but watch who you listen to. Don't let self belief and confidence stop you from being financially prudent. You still need to be prepared to walk away from a big sum of money.

Go into it with your eyes fully open, and with a back up plan for if it all goes wrong.

StraightLevel.

Again, thanks to all those that have contributed.

StraightLevel, thanks in particular for the realistic outlook.

It's really difficult I know and there is no way I'm going into it without doing my research and a back up plan. Believe it or not I'm probably the most risk averse person you could ever meet despite how rash my post sounds.

Thing is this is not the first time I've contemplated this and the bug just never seems to go away. But at the same time, everytime I look into it there never seems to a good time to train.

On leaving university in 1999 I applied and narrowly missed out on the BA sponsored scheme. I put it to the back of my mind and followed a career in finance and actuarial scienece. In 2003/4 the bug hit again, I got the class 1 medical and even went as far as visiting some schools in florida. This time some personal stuff got i the way but I also remember reading about doom and gloom in the industry following 9/11. Following my seperation in 2007 I found myself thinking about a change of career again, a new start, which led me to South Africa on a bit of a 'toe in the water' exercise - and I loved it. And now of course we have the current crisis.

I've even considered would i be content in my current job and flying regulary as a hobby - join a syndicate or even build my own kit plane as a project. You know, I don't think I would!!!

So what does a good time to start training look like given my age or have i simply missed the boat!!!

Llen

If you don't do it, you'll always wish you had ...

However, the way things are at the moment / looking like for the next few years, if you do do it you'll probably always wish you hadn't.

:ugh:

Hi

I started my journey toward that fATPL at the age of 34 too by enrolling with Bristol for the groundschool element. It was tough having a full time job and it took 14 months just to finish the theory. I'm now waiting to start the CPL after finishing the IR last November. Then world wide economic collapse!!

Could my timing have been any worse? I dont think so...:ooh: But I have always believe that life is too short to spend looking up at the sky when you're 50 with 3 kids,2 dogs and 2 cars wishing you had just taken that initial leap. Sure the economy is f :mad: ed and you probably wont get a turboprop or jet job anytime soon after qualification, but if you love flying you will keep current and the market will improve.

good luck

gb

I'm 36 and just about to enroll with bristol my logic is theory will take 12mths ish no rush to get it done and hour build in the mean time then on with the rest of training but not at supper fast speed hopefully by then there might even be those green shoots appearing hopefully

Like you 15 years from now i don't want to be thinking I wish I did it :{

Cheers and good luck


Jxc

With the greatest respect...
 

With the greatest respect Llen, I do suggest that you ignore StraightLevel's advice. My, how bitter and twisted he seems! His profile shows him to hold a frozen ATPL and he's still in an entry-level job. Notwithstanding these points he describes in detail what airline life is like! Perhaps his early expectations were unrealistic..who knows? Cheers bm :ugh:

Go for it mate. If it's what you want, don't look for reasons not to do it!

Just go fot it!
 

Llen,

Sorry if I have came across as bitter and twisted. Let me assure you that I am not. I am actually a very positive person, but I always state that facts as I see them.

What BoeingMEL thinks of me is irrelevant, but what is important is that you make the correct informed decision for you.

It is upto you what if any advice you take but beware. I had the benefit of knowing a few pilots to ask questions directly before deciding if aviation was for me, perhaps you have the same?

StraightLevel.

I say no, too many high risk factors at play here:
-relying on an uncertain real estate market to fund this endevour.
-the very uncertain aviation industry with no new jobs for a very long time.
-perhaps too close to a recent divorce which might have some more expenses attached.
If you must do it then go slow and pay as you go withour incurring large amounts of debt.
Get your instructor's rating and build time while becoming a better pilot along the way.
Don't pay to fly for a company, think outside the box, have fun, good luck

Llen, the market is definately crap, as pointed out by many, and there are loads of pissed off pilots out there, so you will get loads of negativity at the moment, but ask how many of the ones that have made it to the right seat, would swap their job for yours? Its your dream, do it! I'm 37 and after 6 yrs slogging at this I've eventually got a job, its not a perfect job but its a start. By the way, I only finished the MCC this year. Regrets, none. But its a hard grind with a wife and 2 kids, mortgage, etc.etc., you can do it!!

Good Luck mate

T

Llen:

The grass is always greener ....

I have been a lawyer for 27 years and the attraction is not what it was, but it brings in a good living. I have several friends who are commercial pilots - one left the RAF and walked into a job with Virgin flying long haul: he is bored to tears and hates being away for long periods from family and friends. Another in KLM refers to himself as an arial bus driver!

I am doing a CPL in order to eventually earn a (very) little from some instructing and get some of my flying paid for (and for the challenge) and I have other strings to my bow when I really get fed up with the law. Even if I were 20 years younger I would not try for a commercial career. What you are thinking of paying for your training will buy you an awful lot of flying and you can enjoy it without worrying about getting a commercial job. Think about what you can do with a quarter of what you are going to spend!

The sad truth is that you are very likely to earn more in your current career than you are likely to earn as a commercial pilot, certainly in the years immediately following your ATPL. Someone out there will almost certainly come in now and tell you how they got a job at once, but I am sure they are the exception.

Hey, life may revolve around money, but it's not all about money,

Again, take any information here with that important pinch of salt, including what I say to you because anything that anyone tells you is 90% based on personal experience. What I will say is that as a whole, this forum breeds negativity; when there's a recession it's mostly "There are no jobs!!" or "The market is flooded with experienced guys, you are just joining the back of the queue!". On the other hand, when there's an economic boom, it's all, "Unfortunately no matter how hard you try, the harsh reality is that most people with the ambition to fly airliners will never achieve it," or "Remember there is always somebody better than you ready to take your place at the interview, is that really worth a £40-100k investment?"

So however you look at it, this really isn't the best place to be asking questions at all (personally I think the site should be shut down but that's another story entirely) - you get the odd one or two very helpful, informative answers from genuine people trying to help. Whatever else is written (good or bad) is generally tainted within the subliminal unconsciousness by the fact that the average, competitive pilot will interpret the usernames of this forum as competition. That probably explains why there are 'PPRuNe personalities' and 'Pilot personalities' - mates of mine have been on here and been told they won't succeed for whatever reason, and yet when they're talking to a pilot in real life and they see my friend for who he is, it's a whole different story because it's human nature to relate to another human, not to a computer.

Again, apologies for the drift, but I feel that's an important point to make.

All opinions (in my judgment), good or bad, are worth taking in - remember, 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools'. And going by the way some prooners put their points across, in their mind that IS the rules!

In saying that, I still wouldn't like to be referred to as a 'nob' if I had 250 hrs :p

Happy days, Ad

Thanks again all for your views. Some good debate going there with probably an equal amount of people for and against. It's given me lots to think about!!

Cheers
Llen

It's all about attitude...
 

Llen,

Your story sounds similar to mine 2 years ago:
- good job in financial industry, working as CA in big 4
- am turning 35 this year
- got divorced, but still had enough money to finance bulk of the training
- did PPL in SA, hour building in Florida & a bit fun flying in UK & Germany

Here's how I did it:
- continued working while doing ATPL exams
- tax laws allow a person to offset training costs (makes a huge difference)
- took a 6-month 'sabatical' from my job to do modular practical CPL/ME/IR
- after training, found a job with an airline, but I had to pay my own 737 type rating. Having a good credit rating from previous job, made financing this bit over 5 years no problem.

Some tips:
- keep your job as long as you can, and keep yourself flexible to going back if you need to
- maintain your good credit ratings/overdraft facilities as long as possible
- avoid the large pilot pools of the English speaking world such as UK, US & Spain. Training & job hunting in the remaining European countries if far less competitive, as it's not in their culture to take such large risks with their careers/savings. Think: the higher the barriers to entry, the less the competition
- keep an open mind to jobs, languages, countries etc. There are many biz jet companies hiring in Central/Eastern Europe. None of these are advertised, you have to hunt for them.
- keep your training modular - if it doesn't work out, quit before you've spent too much
- shop around, but don't underestimate the value of a flight school with a good reputation. All ATPL's or TR's are not equal.
- brush up on your social, networking and negotiation skills
- learn an additional language (or at least commit to)
- believe in yourself

To sum up:
- as a finance guy, your risk is minimal. You'll still find work even if this whole pilot thing fails. Airline managers, flight dispatchers, ops etc. are also paid well. ATPL studies wont hurt your prospects of doing something in the airline industry.
- you only live once, so imho, go for it!

In a word NO
You are unlikely to even get an interview within the next 2-3 years.
Fly at weekends for fun + then maybe in a couple of years do CPL and instruct
That will give you the hours and options should there be an upturn to give it a go.
All this "you only live once" bollocks is rose tinted specs. Find me a pilot with 15-20yrs experience who is telling you to "go for it" at the moment. Beware of the 18-25yr old age bracket on Pprune who have never seen a recession... they are going to get a very very nasty economics lesson over the next couple of years.

The world over the next 2-3 years is going to be a very different place to the last 2-3 years and it will be tough and unpleasent. You will rue the day you blew 50-60k on getting a frozen ATPL when the fun of learning is fading into the memory.

Ask yourself honestly what do you think the chances of getting a job is? Especially one that can fund a half decent standard of living? At the moment it is less than 10% if you ask me. So unless you really won't miss the money walk away.

BTW,

There are two guys who i did ATPLS with, one who acheived his FATPL in AUG 08.....he now flies for Thomas Cook A320, the other one flies for Air Baltic 737.

They both got jobs at the end of last year, so there are jobs out there..............................

1) You only live once, there is no second lap.
2) When you die you can't take the money with you.
3) Any moment could be your last.
4) Economies and markets are cyclical.
5) This a welfare state, you will not starve.

I have to agree that ones saying you cant get an interview are talking BS.

There is post on Nordic forum, where Wideroe just had interview of new pilots on the 14.th of January.

Yes it is harder, but I believe with a little luck, and if you dont mind moving around, maybe there is a job.

Problem many english prefer only to speak english, would help if they had 1 or 2 extra languages, so they could apply for more jobs.
So saying there are NO new jobs, is not completly true. But to get in with the majors is probably impossible, but then again that should not be the first job a pilot gets either, in my opinion.

Learn to walk before you can run, thats what I hope to achieve over time. Small steps - and then see what happens!