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-   -   CTC iCP or OAA APP? (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/322100-ctc-icp-oaa-app.html)

link_142 10th Apr 2008 19:32

CTC iCP or OAA APP?
 
Hi all,

i have found many threads on here comparing different FTO's but none that compare the integrated product of the OAA's well known APP as opposed to the fresh iCP by CTC.

In terms of employment i understand the '100% employment rate' from CTC's wings scheme....does anyone think the iCP will reflect on that? After all the Airlines who use CTC will take the wing cadets over the iCP wont they?

Look forward to any valid points guys....:ok:

preduk 10th Apr 2008 19:44

No, the 100% rate is from those who have went from zero to fATPL with them only.

link_142 11th Apr 2008 10:24

As far as i have researched CTC have not pointed out many main advantages of their iCP scheme..they seem to be more inclined to market the wings scheme....why choose the iCP? :confused:

link_142 19th Apr 2008 17:11

anyone?? :confused:

jb2_86_uk 19th Apr 2008 17:46

The reason CTC can claim 100% (if they do...) is because pilots who qualify but do not gain immediate employment will sit in CTC's own holding pool until they do get a job.

Some guys might be in there 6 months or longer, essentially unemployed, but providing they do get employed eventually, ctc could say they have a 100% employment rate.

In this case I think all FTOs could claim 100% employment rates, I just think CTC's marketing is quite sneaky.

As the old cliche goes: you can make statistics say anything


JB

preduk 19th Apr 2008 17:56

I haven't heard of anyone being stuck for over 6months, they're employment rate is very good, most go into their new airlines within a couple of months of passing.

link_142 19th Apr 2008 20:04

yh again though this is for the wings scheme...why would these same airlines who use CTC choose iCP students instead of Wings cadets given the option?

ChriSat 19th Apr 2008 20:24

Selection for iCP is alot less competitive than Wings because it's basically the equivalent of OAA's, FTE's and Cabairs Integrated Course, self funded. The wings scheme is bonded, and you don't need the security as with other integrated programs where you borrow a huge sum against a property. The Wings selection process is much more difficult than the iCP selection to reflect the incresed number of applications for probably one of the least risky ways of becoming a pilot.

Chris :)

link_142 19th Apr 2008 20:28

will anyone here out of curiousity be inclined to choose the iCP course over OAA APP...? only point im trying to make is its slighter harder to choose that course as there has not actually been any graduations yet from that course...the 1st class is still in training....hence we wont really know the outcome 'statistics' of the course until graduation and even then a few months down the line to check employment...:cool:

Adios 19th Apr 2008 21:17

CTC Wings requires the partnering airlines to be fairly accurate in predicting how many FOs they will need about two years in advance. If they over estimate, the excess graduates can go into the hold pool. If they underestimate and CTC does not have enough graduates, the partner airline has to go elsewhere and hire self sponsored students to fill the shortfall. If you look at OAA's employment report, you'll see that EasyJet hired about 17 from OAA in 2006, which was most likely done because they underestimated their requirement in 2004.

CTC recently expanded their capacity. I suspect the main reason they started iCP is to sell excess capacity because they may have over expanded beyond what the airlines think they will need. Indeed, iCP may have been the first sign that airlines were projecting a slowdown, though it could just be a sign CTC's expansion was over-zealous.

The iCP graduates who do well enough will have priority for the Wings ACP SSTR and if there is another shortfall like EasyJet had in 2006, they will probably pull iCP graduates from the hold pool before they venture further north and hire OAA graduates.

link_142 20th Apr 2008 12:44

that makes fair sense...thanks for the input adios :ok:

sicky 2nd Jul 2008 00:02

I was an unsuccesful stage 4 CTC Wings applicant in 2006, but i've been offered a place on the Wings ICP course (i failed stage 2 and 4 of the cadet scheme so can't ever try again :{)

It's possible that i may be able to secure the loan thanks to trusting parents. How do people view this course, and the risks involved?

I've just been reading a fair few posts and it really seems people are beginning to back off the idea of integrated courses (on here anyway, they all seem to be filling up though)

My other option is modular at Multiflight (as i live in Leeds) and i'm guessing that will cost me 40k

CTC do state that ICP students are likely to have priority onto the ACP course, is it possible that is the reason the ACP course is rarely open now?

Understandably i'm so reluctant to spend such vast amounts of money, it's frightening, but sometimes you just have to push your luck and take the big risks. It's such a tricky time at the moment though - who knows where things will stand this time next year? (I know you can say that every year but right now it's carries more weight than ever)

If it is considered relatively safe, i'm so tempted to go for it. I need to call thme to discuss how the icp finances work and a few other queries, but i'd like a few 'neutral' opinions please!

(I can't find a dedicated ICP thread)

Thanks :ok:

99jolegg 2nd Jul 2008 08:51

Nobody has completed the iCP course yet, so no, that's not the reason the ATP isn't open much.

Remember that the ATP scheme is open to anyone with a CPL/IR, so there are literally thousands of people trying to get through the door of that scheme. Whilst you may be given preferential treatment if you do well on the iCP course, it is in their best interest to take the best of the best. Don't be fooled by thinking it'll be a simply thing to get on. At the end of the day, business is business and they want the best.

That said, if you do well, prove them wrong about not being suitable for the Wings scheme, then there is a good chance you could get on to the ATP scheme. Bear in mind that the ATP scheme is rarely open. So if you ace the exams and flying program, you could well be good enough to get into the ATP Scheme, but due to the fact it probably won't be open, you could be waiting 6-8-10 months for it to open.

At the moment, it's been closed for about 6 months. In my opinion, view the iCP course as any other integrated course. Don't get caught up in the possibility of attending the ATP course as a sole reason for picking the course - least of all when it hasn't happened to anybody yet.

Good luck!

heli_port 2nd Jul 2008 10:06

Personally i would go for OAA APP as it's a tried and tested product and once you add up all the costs associated with both courses they practically are the same..

Superpilot 2nd Jul 2008 10:24

None.

Those even considering these murderously overpriced integrated courses need their heads screwed on. Spend 35k on zero to fATPL modular course and then blow 25k on a type rating and you can still save. Oh wait, let me guess. You ain't got the money??? :mad:

WQ - ingo 3rd Jul 2008 18:47


Those even considering these murderously overpriced integrated courses need their heads screwed on. Spend 35k on zero to fATPL modular course and then blow 25k on a type rating and you can still save. Oh wait, let me guess. You ain't got the money??? :mad:
Superpilot, it's exactly that, integrated schemes have bonded loans associated with them that gives the possibility of training.. Modular doesn't.

BerksFlyer 3rd Jul 2008 19:11

WQ-ingo,

Considering your main concern is whether or not the industry will look good when you finish training, don't you think it would be wise to work for a few years to raise some funds? Or maybe you could train modular whilst working. That eliminates your other concern; whether or not you could pay back a loan. You would be debt free if you took your time and paid as you go. This way is much less risk, why would you take such a massive when you've got so much to lose and so many concerns?

WQ - ingo 3rd Jul 2008 19:21

Nicely put.. Food for thought.

sicky 3rd Jul 2008 20:27

At the moment I am working for an airline and 'doing it as i go'. I am fortunate to have parents willing to stump up enough money for modular provided i pay back a minimum amount each month. They are also seriously looking at whether it would be possible to secure integrated funds for me - i'm very lucky ot have such supportive parents and i will be paying back every penny i borrow.

That being said, i'm on a low salary at the moment and live on my own, in my own place. This leaves very little spare, not enough to save really, so my other big decisions is: Do i go for an option I have of a higher paid job (at a bank) or do i stay in the industry and keep on struggling.

I'm thinking that staying in the airline will keep contacts, keep me involved, but the safer financial route is more of a 'needs must' option, if that makes sense?

Basically I do think the financial risk of integrated is too high, especially in the current climate, but to increase chances of employment once the flying is done, it would be nice to be able to stay with an airline...!

Adios 3rd Jul 2008 22:40

Sicky,

Those contacts will do you no good if you never finish the ATPL. Hundreds of pilots get jobs every year without such contacts. I am not spurning networking, rather explaining that it has limitations and many succeed without inside contatcs, but only those who finish the training. I'd recommend the better paying job at least until you are closer to actually needing the contacts.


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