Hi Raydon1206,
Here's my 2 cent's!
Your son is 25 years of age,dont you think he's a bit old to be asking ''Daddy'' for a birthday present?
Im guessing from the sound of things, he's still living at home with the parent's!

How about telling him to get a job,save up,and pay for the course himself!!!

Nosher:

Is that kind of comment really necessary the thread was about ATPL manuals and as far as I can see has nothing to do with funding, living arrangements or anything else.

Besides aviation training is on the same par if not more than setting up a business and you'd certainly seek funding for that from various sources including banks. They would also charge you interest during the early phases of your business. Yet most experts also mention that family funding is an excellent source because of the flexibility and willingness (mostly) of family to help. Therefore maybe the Doctor's son is doing the right thing and then later on in life can repay his father with more than just money.

Dear Nocher

Every country and people has its own culture. I know that in U.S. and U.K. and mostly northern Europe the most common thing is that kids after school take from parents their first money and leave home to go for studies work and make their own way in lie. I will not judge if this is good or bad. Its just a difference.

In Greece and Southern Italy as I know its a common thing that kids until they get married live in their parents home and move just if they want to and not obligatory.

Just an example I would say that my son when he was doing the obligatroy military service, he was 21 months in Special Forces and he was bringing to my wife (his mother) the dirty of mud and sand uniforms for laundry when he was with a day off!!!

Also it is a common thing that parents support financialy their sons and daughters in their studies and if there is ability until their first job.

I am 55 years old and my parents did the same for me and I didnt return them a penny and same I will, support my son, pay him the 100% of his studies and will ask for nothing in future. And if I didnt have the financial ability I would get a loan to support him. Also my parents still buy me a birthday present and I dont see any reason why not to do the same for my son and daughter.

Furthermore families here are very connected and I support my parents who are now 85 y/o. Its like a chain.

The only bad I see in this is that family members interfear into each other and in many times there are misunderstandings and conflicts between family members but thats life.

So Nocher I dont see any bad attitute from my son. Its a matter of the Greek way of life!

Dear Dfspilot
thank you very much for your information about OXFORD.

Anyway. Does anybody know anything now about Jeppesen manuals?

Best regards to all !

Dr. Ray

Dr Ray

You ask which manuals to buy "in order not to just throw 600pound". As an ATPL grounschool instructor, I would suggest that whichever set you choose you will be doing exactly that - throwing away money. The BGS manuals are excellent and will be more than adequate to see your son through his exams.

If you really must buy him such a present, I suggest that you look beyond the training school manuals and toward the textbooks that many use as references. The "Ground Studies for Pilots" series by Blackwell Publishing would be a good start. The UK CAA publish a document called LASORS (available on-line at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_06_WEB.pdf) which inclides somewhere among its many pages a list of recommended reading.

That said, I would second earlier posts - buy him a CRP-5 and a good holiday!

True, in Turkey we have that kind of understanding too. We are very very close.

Jeppesen Manuals
 

Dr. Ray,

I have done my groundschool with Atlantic Flight Training in Coventry, and was issued with the full set of Jeppesen books. There has been much talk about the fact that there are in some cases 4000 less pages in the Jeppesen manuals and that because of this, they are not as good.

From personal experience I would totally disagree, as they have covered every area in full detail and have led me to pass my exams no problem. I too looked at the Oxford books and while I agree that they are better for Q&A's and other resources, they can go into too much detail sometimes and end up confusing the whole subject.

However, from a different perspective, the Jeppesen books such as IFR & VFR Communications aren't really that informative and CAP413 issued by the CAA is really adequate enough to pass the exam.

I do also agree with others in the fact that if your son is enrolling on a full time or distance learning course he should be getting training materials and books included. It is also worth a note that the books alone aren't really all you need to pass the exams, good tuition and assessments or progress tests are equally as important.

It is a lot of money to spend so I can understand you want to do so wisely, and while I thoroughly reccommend the Jeppesen books I would advise you to wait for the second editions which I believe are due out soon.

I think the Jeppesen manuals prove that quality, not quantity, is the key for a success in the JAA exams, but everyone is different and some prefer to learn what they need to where as others like a broader understanding. Both however, follow the same LO's (learning objectives). Personal choice.

Kind Regards,

CVT Pilot.

atpl manuals
 

what a sad day it is when someone asks for advice and you get an immature comment like that displayed by " nosher ". hope i never meet him in the skies."""""""""

I think we've established that buying the manuals is probably not the best option. The CRP-5 is an excellent suggestion. As for the holiday, well it was a bit of a throwaway line, but if he could combine a holiday with visiting the school(s) you are looking at, would that not be a worthwhile present?

I think that what you are doing for your son is a wonderful thing; I wish that I could afford one day to do a similar thing for mine - though I suspect I won't! For those of you who resent this kind of parental help, get over it. It has always and will always exist for those who can afford it. I imagine that one of the reasons many of you are trying to get into aviation is so that you can achieve a comfortable living standard. If you're in it long enough, and you have some luck with employers, you also may one day be in a position to fund your children's career training - there are many wannabes here who have had parental help, and they are no more or less welcome than anyone else.

Scroggs

So from what I understand Oxford ooks are more academically presented with every detail etc.Studying Oxford alone without tuition may be quite difficult. Its more like an encyclopedia where you can also go back and check every matter in every detail

From the other side from what I see Jeppesen is more like quality learning in order to have a success in exams and learn the most useful things of the thing called flight and airplane but yet not academically presented like Oxford

Finally I decided not to buy anything as it seems to too much money for no use.

Whats a CRP-5??? Dont bother to reply I made a search in Google and found out.

Finally i would like to state a certain thing. I am convinced will not buy anything as the intergated training that my son will start (INTERCOCKPIT) includes everything.

Concerning books I was just asking, just to have an idea of how can it be and there is so big difference between the each manual series. As I mentioned before I am a lawyer and the studies in every university are more or less the same amount. So I just asked in order to get an understanding of the whole concept. I couldnt understand in learning theory of flying how there is so big difference (4000 pages). Now my question is solved. (not 100% but ok)

Anyway thank you all for your replies

Best regards

Dr. Ray

crp5
 

- Pooley's CRP-5 Flight Computer
Details

This interactive tutor created by Oxford Aviation Training includes all the features and functions of the Pooleys CRP-5 flight computer itself, and is ideal for both student and qualified pilots wishing to learn how to use the CRP-5 for the first time, or to refresh existing skills.
see oxford aviation traing website and go to media shop





CRP-5 Flight Computer

The CRP-5 has all the features of the CRP-1, but is designed specifically for UK commercial pilots, and students. Larger slide plotting disc and circular rule give the finest accuracy. Commercial features include compressibility scales and higher wind speeds - as necessary for CAA commercial exams. Comes complete with vinyl case and easy to understand instructions.
go to transair pilot supplies and is under flight computers.

Dfspilot

Thanks a lot for the quick reply!

Best regards

Dr. Ray

Furthermore

I discussed the whole matter and your opinions with my son and we came into a decision that its no need of buying so expensive books.

The only reason my son asked me of the books is in order to prepare the certain vocabulary of aviation.

Does now anybody have any idea of a book with the certain vocabulary,or a preparation book concerning this matter.

Best regards

Dr. Ray

If I was in the position of your son, I would be interested in the Oxford Met CD and also the CRP 5 CD, if also if the english is a bit rusty also purchase the VFR and IFR communications CD's. Try one of the many pilots shops, ie pooleys.com or afeonline.com or transair.co.uk to name just a couple.

Also how about a interview books such as one of these:

Airline Pilot Interviews - Jasinski
This book concentrates on showing you how to prepare an impressive pilot employment package, and how to portray yourself in the most effective, professional manner during an interview.

Price: £26.50| £26.50 including VAT (Exempt)



Handbook of Pilot Selection - Hunter & Burke
This book describes the methods surrounding pilot selection, techniques largely applicable to any personnel.

Price: £65.00| £65.00 including VAT (Exempt)



Job Hunting for Pilots - Brown
This book has been written as a guide for Pilots trying to get a flying job.

Price: £14.95| £14.95 including VAT (Exempt)


or these will come in handy especially the multi engine book ...

Instrument Flight Procedures - Gjerlev
(Including RNAV and FMS operations) 57% of all accidents happen during descnet, approach, and landing, often as Controlled-Flight-into-Terrain (CFIT).

Price: £24.00| £24.00 including VAT (Exempt)



Multi-Engine Piston - Robson
This manual has been prepared for those pilots embarking on their first type endorsement on a Multi-Engined aircraft.

Price: £20.00| £20.00 including VAT (Exempt)



These books, are also good reference for any pilot:

Aerodynamics, Engines and Systems
This volume refreshes and expands the professional pilot’s knowledge of: • high-speed and heavy-jet aerodynamics; • gas turbine engines and their operation (both turbo-fans and turbo-props); • associated fuel control systems; • propellers; and • flight controls and other systems that make up the very complex but fascinating package that is the modern jet transport aeroplane.

Price: £25.00| £25.00 including VAT (Exempt)

Avionics and Flight Management Systems
This volume introduces the modern flight deck systems where the pilot’s primary role is one of systems management rather than manipulation of the flight controls.

Price: £25.00| £25.00 including VAT (Exempt)

Human Performance & Limitations
The most important information needed to perform the multi-functional tasks required by a modern jet is knowledge about the performance and limitations of its human crew.

Price: £25.00| £25.00 including VAT (Exempt)

Meteorology For Pilots Code: 8773E

Meteorology For Pilots - K. M. Wickson.
Giving a detailed weather prediction is a difficult task, and so is understanding the meteorological factors and their reactions. This is a comprehensive manual for all aeronautical students.
Transair Price £25.00

THIS BOOK ABOVE IS REALLY GOOD!


Some of the Microsoft flight simulator add ons are also a good thing to get:


A320 Pilot in Command Code: 3793D

Highly detailed airliner "A320 Pilot in Command". This is a complete airliner simulation using a 3D Active Panel, which gives you full room to move and a new dimension of realism in MS Flight Simulator!
Transair Price £24.99


Boeing 737 NG 600/700 Code: 3792D

Add on for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002 & 2004. The B 737 NG is a highly realistic reproduction of Boeing`s New Generation Glass Cockpit Aircraft series.
Transair Price £24.99



I just touched the edge , there are many good books, and many good software packages that will help your son, and give him some good reference material for use his future career.

Some quality books to support the ground school notes perhaps.

Particularly as he is doing a BSc, some books would be very accessable and useful to him that your average trainee wouldn't have a hope with.

Handling the Big Jets.
Ed Pallets book on Automatic Flight Systems (I forget the exact title but I'm sure someone else will remember it. If not I'll look it up later, in the mean time I have to get out to work!)

PB

I second the vote for the Oxford Met CD. I used Bristol GS, and also used this CD which did help a lot.

Slighty off-track but I just wanted to say .....

What Dr. Rayden illustrated is more common than you realise around the world. Just because something doesn't happen or occur in North-West Europe doesn't mean you can somehow look down on it. Many people are enraged when Americans demonstrate their lack of knowledge of other cultures but it's a reminder that certain Europeans are subject to that too.

As aspirant pilots that kind of shortsightedness is unbecoming and clearly demonstrates how simple academic studies doesn't always turn a person into a pilot. Numerous cultures around the world are 'integrated' into their community and what's wrong with that? Anyway better drop this line now as it's too removed from the original thread.

Links to ATPL notes.
 

I had ones a link to a very good free site which had JAR ATPL notes (not question banks) but I have lost the link.

Please post any good and free sites with atpl notes.

Its good to have prior an interview to brush up your ATPL knowledge.

Here's an australian one:

http://www.aviationshop.com.au/avfacts/editorial.htm

and another

www.wiljam.com

Phil

thanks alot

Pre ATPL groundschool reading
 

Hi
I'm just about to start full time groundschool for the ATPL exams (in a months time) and wondered if anyone has any advice as to any background reading/ preperation that will help when I start. Basically I have a month in which to prepare for the start so any suggestions would be helpful!

Thanks
Graham

Graham,

I did a similar thing to yourself in terms of preparation for the ATPL course.

What I found useful was to go through the PPL syllabus in some detail, and grasp a thorough understanding of as much as you can. You will notice when you start the course, that a lot of stuff you will have seen before, and it really is an extension of your knowledge, so having a good grounding will give you a head start. Also a tip before you start General Nav. Get your whizz wheel smoking, you have to know this dam thing inside out for General Nav.

All the best with it, and even though it is hard work, keep on top of it and you will be fine. Above all, enjoy it.

Cheers.

Good advice on the whizz wheel, a lot of people struggle with it during the ATPL and have poor techniques, usually as a hangover from being rushed through it during the PPL. Here are some thoughts:-

- use the wind down method NOT wind up
- calcuate wind/velocity given TAS, track etc
- work out cross wind and head/tail wind components
- make sure you can get your head around the time/distance/speed problems and the various permutations
- if you don't already have the CRP5 then get one, avoid cheaper imitations as generally the instructors won't know how to use them anyway and I have seen people struggling to get the same answers as the rest of the class using a non pooleys model
- know how to use your calculator properly - something like a Casio FX82 or similar should be your weapon of choice. In particular the hours, minutes, secs functions can save you loads of time and avoid costly errors as well as the sin/cos/tan functions
- refresh yourself on basic trigonometry - SOHCAHTOA, solving lengths of equal sided triangles etc
- can you manipulate algebraic formulae, nothing to hard but all the same there is fair amount of it across the subjects
- try to remember some of the main conversions such as ft/nm, kts/mph, m/nm etc
- hows your geography? You would be surprised how many people forget which countries are to the east/west of the greenwich meridian.

Thats all I can think of for now. Enjoy.

Pre ATPL ground school preparation?
 

I am due to start my ground school ATPL's at the end of September. With a few weeks on to go until then i will look to brush up on my math and physics. Are there any books worth reading as pre-study material?

Or any suggestions would be helpful.

Regards

V1

Just read up on some trigonometry, basic algebra (how to make 'x' the subject, etc), know a little about what your cos/sin/tan buttons of the calculator are for and little about vectors.

Some basic physics - Boyles Law, basic electrics, and moments.

I wouldn't worry too much - it's all GCSE level stuff and if I can do it anyone can!

VFE.

Hey look another queston just like yours posted two weeks ago:) Welcome to pprune but get to know that search function as the majority of things have been asked over the years.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239266

Starting the ATPL ground school
 

so, with some trepidation, I start the ATPL groundschool at the beginning of next month. Although I have been distance learning for a while, I have come to the conclusion that Full time is going to be the best way for me to go. Can anyone give me any helpful hints about what to expect from the course - anything to look out for or pay particular attention to? I have heard many things from many people, but I would like to gather as much as I can before I start. Any ideas would be gratefully recieved! I have worked at a 'sleepy' airfield for the past few years, and I know that full time learning is going to be a bit of a shock to the system!

x

As someone who has today just found out that I have finally passed all of the little feckers let me give you my words of wisdom (sic)....

- become a master of the CRP5

- hows your maths? (check out this thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239266)

- at times it will be so dull and tedious that you will almost lose the will to live. Don't worry we have all been through it, just grin and bear it :)

- as you go through the subjects you will find there is much repetition. Just grin and bear it:)

- you may find depending on your background that some of the stuff is wrong, just grin and bear and take a deep breath and remember what the CAA want ticked in the exams and put out of your mind any learning that you may have done at considerable cost at an established highly esteemed university. Just grin and bear it :)

- nearer to the exams (say a month out) sign up to the Bristol online database and have the pleasure of practicing questions that remarkably look the same as those you will find in the ATPL exams. Wink wink.

- there is a really useful forum on the Bristol.gs website where there is a fair amount of useful information and questions that is available for free. They will even answer questions raised so it can be a great place to find out something that even your instructor isn't totally sure about.

If you can try and do a bit of flying so that you don't completely lose the plot although this is a nice extra. Good luck!

Thank you for that! Congrats on passing them all.
I have taken on board what you say (funnily enough, many people have suggested the Bristol GS!!) and I intend to spend the next six months eagerly and earnestly practising for the exams.

oh the flying would be nice too, if only the beautiful english weather holds up!

x

Hi

I myself only passed my ATPL exams not so long back. First of all its going to be perfectly nornmal to feel slightly nervous or intimidated by the amount of information you are expected to remember, you're only human!

I never had the best education to be honest, no A levels or degree, and quite frankly poor GCSE's. I embarked on a ATPL course after a getting hooked after a trial flight, and have never looked back since. There will be plenty of people on your course for support, and plenty of people who have all been there to give guidance along the way, you will never be alone. Try not to be stressed by the amount of information you have to learn, easier said than done I know, but as time goes on everything makes sense believe me!

1. Do leave yourself time off to relax, and think of something else, or do something else non aviation related. Going to bed at night thinking of the whizz wheel, and charts and formulas etc is not good for you, so budget for night out every so often, it helped me anyway.

2. Involve yourself with the most positive members of your course, always helps.

3. As mentioned earlier by another user on the forum, the Bristol Groundschool question bank, they are fantastic!!! Do learn your subject material inside and out, but as mentioned earlier on the forum, a month or so before get on the question bank, I saw question after question after question that was the same as the BGS question bank, I cannot endorse them enough, YOU WILL PASS THE LOT, Id put money on it!!

4. Finally when the going gets tough, just take a step back and remember why you are doing what you are doing, family and friends are very important.

The very best of luck.

Fantastic advice Born4theskys,

It can also help to put in a little flying during your studies, I joined a club, got a great block rate on a PA28 and make an effort to fly to somewhere interesting once a fortnight. It keeps you current and helps you realise why you are doing all the work.

I would also add that the OAT Met CDROM and their instruments book is worth a look. It certainly helped me out!

Plus any feedback that is doing the rounds is worth having, keep practicing questions until you are sick :yuk: as it helps not only to get you up to speed for the exams, but also spot what the JAA are looking for in a question. This, in some cases, is an artform in it's own!

Good luck

Thank you for that. sometimes you do tend to find yourself caught up in the whole aviation thing. ( which is of course why we lay ourselves out on the line to get where we want to be!).

x

Thanks for this. I will use the search function next time. Can i also ask where you did your ATPL's. I am having last minute worries that i have made the right decision. I am going to full time study at OAT but having seen that i can get it a thousand or so cheaper if i go to Bournmouth or Orlando Im thinking have i done the right thing???

I know OAT is one the top schools but is it worth paying the extra money??

V1

OAT have a maths and physics refresher course, its a 2wk self study one......:ok:

Hi

Just thought Id stress something which callsign kilo said about keeping current in flying. This is very good and practical advice as far as Im concerned. Looking back to when I was doing my exams, I only did the odd flight here and there, and then eventually stopped eventually half way through and tryed to concentrate my efforts on just my theory. I wish I had not stopped now, as when I started again it does take a while just to pick up where you left off and get back up to scratch.

I still have a while to go myself. Got good rate on a C152, so hour building while doing shift work to bring in extra cash. As I say, just remind yourself why you are choosing this career. You'll be doing a job you've always dreamed of while the majority of the country dreads going to work!

Lets face it, in world where a large proportion of our life is spent at work, what is a couple of years of hard work to achive a lifetime of job satisfaction.

Go for it, and the very best of luck.

Good positive attitude!! Yes, we are lucky that we KNOW what we want to do, where most people have no idea and just take life as it comes.Stick with it and you will eventually see rewards! I'm just about to start ATPL groundschool myself.

Can I ask where you are doing your ATPL's?

It will be London Met. In a weeks time!!

London Met
 

Hi Stumpyotoole,

Get on with it retard!! :}

Fantastic text last night, thanks for that, had me rolling in the isles for ages.

See ya tonight, have fun at work!! ;)

Capitano Dannyc :p

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yeah im starting at London met in a weeks time to so ill see you there stumpyotoole. I just like to raise another question and that is how much of your time out of the class room, on average, will be taken up by studying?

look forward to seeing you there, hoping for a good group of people!
x