i did my ppl there about 4 years ago and have just come back from 60hrs hour building. they have a handfull 152's very old and i had a few tech probs with them, they have gps. they have several warriors etc and a few c172's-very nice with auto pilot etc only couple years old also with gps!

very nice and friendly people.

xx

oh yeah and andrew quit last week got a comercial flying job.
there is a new jaa examiner there now also.
x

GOOD
 

Good, i'm happy for him, the job he deserved at last. Great bloke, did my PPL with him in the summer. I've heard about the bad things they do to there CFI's they don't want there. But anyway no more comments on that. So whos the new JAA examiner? Does paul still do the CPL there?

Brian304:ok:

Ok ... so what happens then if you get get out there, ie. to OFT having paid for your flights/visa/tsa/course deposit and then they say to you, "We won't let you train until you have paid for the course up front" ... they have you over a barrel. Have you ever been in that situation Mr Scroggs?

FAO:Chris (user name - not given)

To answer your qu's, I went directly to OFT not through Cabair. Thanks for that information and advice, I will take it on board!
PP

PilotPrincess YOU are the customer, not the school. You have the money and they have to earn it. They are not doing you a favour, you are doing them one by choosing their school. If they can't get to grips with that concept, walk away and don't turn back. There are plenty of schools who do understand the concept of 'customer service', and no-one to whom you are paying several (possibly tens of) thousands of pounds ever has you over a barrel, it is quite the reverse; remember that.

Scroggs

Spot on Scroggs! :D

It shocks me how many FTO and students fail to understand it!

Many of us on PPRuNe say it time and time again: Don't pay large amounts up front unless it's into an escrow account or equivalent! Although I think paying small amounts up front is a reasonable compromise. Say, not more than a few grand but never more than you're prepared to lose if/when the school shuts shop.

I've lost track of the number of schools that have gone belly up. Australia, UK, USA, you name the place it makes no difference. The students and staff are nearly always the last to know, in many cases only finding out when they arrive for lessons or work and find the doors locked.

There are schools where paying it all up front would be OK for the period of your training. Trouble is you have no way of knowing which schools are which. You certainly don't have the option of auditing their books or discerning the owner's intentions.

I can only repeat the US's (futile) anti-drugs mantra: "Just say no." As Scroggs so rightfully said, if the school won't compromise then go elsewhere! They're the ones begging for *your* money. You are not the one begging for their services. You can *always* go elsewhere. Just as much as asking about their rates, aircraft availability etc it's important to ascertain payment options. A requirement to pay large amounts up front should raise a very large red flag about choosing that school.

It is not too difficult either to transfer to another immigration approved school that wants to play fair either. They would be more than delighted to help you through the process. Its in their interests too. At least they know they are getting a customer who is not prepared to be a scmuck.

Do a search here on Pprune because a number of people have explained how to move schools if things dont work out.

For others ask the question before you sign up with them how they expect payment to be done. If you dont like it dont go with them.

A good flying school is more than just good instruction. Its good admin, good aircraft the whole lot. Corners cut in one area indicates corners cut elsewhere, it stands to reason.

I find it strange that aviation is one of the activities where its customers are expected to fork out several thousand of pounds to be treated like sh!t by pompous (sometimes crooked) and overbearing suppliers.

Is it any wonder GA is dying.

Well, it's ok for you to sit there in your nice comfy home/office etc, to say that, but I was in Florida (my first time to the States) and Jean Pierre (Sales Manager/whatever) said to me in no uncertain terms that if I decided that I didn't want to do the course then he would cancel my visa. I now think that he was being an *******. My husband (an airline pilot) is furious about how I was treated. I feel pretty vexed now about Jean-Pierre's attitude.

By the way Chrisbl, don't call me a schmuck, you don't even know me and AT LEAST I CAN SPELL.

Did you not ask them about their payment terms as part of your research before you went?

PilotPrincess If I wanted to call you a schmuck I would have been more explict like "PP what a schmuck you are".

But as a general point dont do abroad what you would not dream of doing at home.

You would not seriously hand over a few thousand pounds to a complete stranger to build say a conservatory onto your house.

So why do the same with aviation especially in a foreign country.

One rule I have which always comes in handy weather its a plumber I am thinking of engaging or even a flying school. The first lie is always the last lie and any relationship ends. I had a builder quote once who claimed to be in a particular trade body so I looked it up and he was not. So he was out, (claimed he ade a mistake- yeh it was on his headed paper) the first lie is the last lie. I am afraid you have to ask questions which you can verify to find out whether they lie.

Applies to same to flying schools. When you cannot visit them ie they are 2000 miles away extra care is needed. Watch out for bogus or tame references too.

About the 'Pay-up-front' dilemma
 

Hi ChrisBL, PilotPrincess, Tinstaafl and all the other 'never-pay-up-front' crusaders out there! :)

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that we generally understand and agree with you. Yet so many people keep bringing up the question over and over again. The (otherwise brilliant) permanent training-advisory thread already has information about the "why", but not the "how" and I think this is where the problem lies: How would an alternative pay-plan be organised? How does escrow-accounts work, how to agree total-price but still pay in chunks, etc. etc.

Also: -Why I think this is causing so much dilemma for so many people:

1) If there is a 'complete package price to PPL' pre-pay sum (perhaps even including free re-tests if necessary) then people are likely to feel; "As long as the school doesn't suddenly shut down, I can pre-calculate the end price of getting my license." Hence, then the only (!) risk they take is that of the school going bust, but otherwise feel comfortable with knowing a fixed-sum cost to license.

2) If instead they embark on a 'pay-as-you-go' scheme, I think alot of people feel they might take the risk of the school insisting on lots of extra training towards the end, needed or not. Basically the old "yeah mate, you're almost ready but we feel that you should take a few more hours (extra money) before we book you for the final test". Scary situation...

Again, I am happy to be wrong, please tell me if you see other posibilities. But from the looks of it; escrow-accounts, and other 'not-everything-in-advance' solutions only seem to protect us if the whole school goes bust, it doesn't protect against the costs growing (but could even cause them to!) during training. Am I right here?

Naturally, the best solution would probably be to get a total-price agreed and then still only pay smaller amounts in advance, say; 33,33,34 (%) or so just before starting each new week. Not sure if this is possible, never heard of anyone being able to do it for a PPL.

Again, thanks for a great Forum and have a nice weekend!
/GO

Well Just an opinion but I doubt that OFT will go bust as cabair has shares in it, and cabair is a very big company. But anyway there are chances that they will go bust, but hopefully my left over $5000 there for my CPL will still be safe when I go back haha.

Brian304:ok:

ATPL Ground School at OFT
 

Anyone starting the ATPL Residential Ground School at OFT in December?
Anyone around from the October class? (did it start at all?) What are your impressions? Would like to hear from you.

CPL/IR
 

I have a JAA PPL, and I'm intending to go to OFT for JAA Multi-Engine CPL.

Does anyone recommend me to do the FAA IR with OFT, then convert it with Cabair to JAA IR. I have info that it is cheaper like that.:confused:

Jaa Training/ Jaa Schools Us
 

Hi, Im spanish guy desperate triying to find a school in US wich provide JAA training or courses for international students up to 1000h flying time, without do any conversion. Thats a very important point. As i dont live in the US is very difficult to choose the proper schoold cos I have no idea how they are.. I just can see the webs and nothing else. So could anyone give me a hand? Please anyone knows any? any recommendation or suggestion? I´ve been looking around European Fligth Training and Orlando Fligth Training. This both offer 1500h JAA courses. Someone who has been training in any of those?
Thank you very much guys.

PS: I will appreciate any honest opinion.

Hardly, the accommodation over there and the conversion course over here will soon burn up any savings. Plus aiui you have to undergo a rigourous oral exam for the FAA IR and not a multiguess paper a la JAA :)

There are no full JAA IR courses in the US.

So what would you recommend for IR? Doing it in the UK in the first place, or is it better in Spain, cost-wise?

Many thanks.

Orlando Flight Training
 

I see many threads on this forum asking about flight training in Florida. As a flight instructor that used to be employed by them I think I could share a fair evalutaion.
All the school cares about is your money. That is the bottom line and from that stems a majority of other problems. There are some things that they advertise to you which you have to look at carefully. If you look at the breakdown of required times for a certificate or rating (specifically FAA), they advertise 10 hours of solo time in a simulator for the instrument training and 20 hours of solo time in a FRASCA 142 simulator. YOU CANNOT LOG SOLO TIME IN A SIMULATOR. You cannot log any time in a flight training device unless an instructor is there. A flight training device does not even count toward TOTAL time. It only counts towards a certificate or rating.
There have been many instances of an airplanes airworthiness being questionable. When an airplane has a discrepancy, you write it down on a discrepancy logbook. The airplane cannot be flown until the discrepancy has been resolved. The school, in an effort to keep the airplane flying throughout the day, would allow the mechanics to make an entry on the discrepancy log that "No Defects" were noted. This would place the aircraft back in service "ON PAPER". The problem hadn't been fixed though. The next student to fly the airplane would see the same problem. This is highly unlawful and more importantly, NOT SAFE!!
One other thing to beware of is the cost for certain items. If you look on the webpage for the cost of the medical exam they have it listed as $100.00 dollars. In on instance it is listed as costing $400.00 dollars. The cost of the higest Class of a US medical (First Class) only costs about $70.00 at the most. The school pockets the rest of the money without justification. Call some FAA examiners to get some prices and you'll see what I mean. There was a time when a group of university students came for their PPL's. The owner of the flight school picked them up from the airport and brought them to the school. It would have been nice of him to do so if he hadn't charged each of the 5 students almost $80.00 for the ride. It would have cost less to take a cab. He pocketed almost $400.00 dollars!
I've said all that to say this....if you choose to go to OFT to do your flight training, KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR FINANCIAL ACCOUNT AND JUSTIFY EVERY DOLLAR SPENT!! If it seems unreasonable then remember, there is always a cheaper alternative. ALSO KEEP AN EYE ON THE AIRWORTHINESS OF YOUR AIRPLANE. Unfortunately for most of you, you have no idea what is required by law to be airworthy. If you are unsure, ask a flight instructor, or better yet call the Flight Standards District Office (FAA). Make sure all the required inspections and maintenance items have been taken care of before you go flying and put a chain on your wallet. Most of all, enjoy yourself while you are learning to fly.

Ive read all those posts but im after loacl info more than anything. I think each person will have there own experiance and views. I'm planning to take it as I find it and try to enjoy my training and my first step to being an airline pilot.

The way I look at it is of course they are only interested in your money to a certain point, after all it is a business and thats what they are there to do 'take your money' but as long as I get treated fairly and come home in one piece:ok: with my JAA PPL i'll be well chuffed:) !!

In defense of OFT
 

I did my ME CPL skills test at OFT in November, and found them very helpful. My training was all done at MFC in Canada, but then the weather broke and was unable to take my skills test there. As OFT is also associated with Cabair i phoned them. The man i spoke to was Andrew Mclaird, who at short notice arranged my skills test and accomodation, he was very helpful and had me finished within a matter of days.I thought that this was more than fair, after not doing my training with them.Their prices seem to be average, and their aircraft seem to be the same as most flight schools i have ever been to.A word of caution, do not under any circumstances get on the wrong side of Morag in despatch, keep that in mind and you should enjoy your time there !

Happy with OFT
 

Greetings,

I've had two visits to OFT and both had issues. The first was my cross country requirements for the FAA IR was insufficient due to an error on my part. For the FAA ticket, flight time can only qualify as cross country if it involves a landing (even just a T & G) at an airport a minimum of 50nm from the starting point. My Instructor, Jean Pierre and the then Chief pilot Dirk helped me to complete a mini hour-building program within my course to help me walk away with the Rating achieved. Although it was my fault for not checking the finer points mentioned on the website, all was sorted. It's also best to keep a close eye on your account. One issue of being charged for somebody else's tuition was very quickly sorted with a humble apology from the front desk. Thank You Wanda.

The second was for the FAA CPL. The Qualifying cross country was not valid for the skills test because of the clause requiring a landing at an airport at least 250 nm from the original point of departure. Again, it was most likely myself who was to blame for not checking, however in my defence, my flight which included a 250nm-plus leg (ie south to KVRB, North to KTLH and back to KVRB via KISM and then back to KISM) was approved by my instructor . It did not qualify since at no point was I more than 250nm from KISM. A very annoying technicality given by my Flight Examiner was that had I stopped for the night at KVRB (Or even landed before midnight and departed after midnight!!)on my first visit during this flight, all would have been OK. OFT were very apologetic and tried to help but I had one day to go and the thunderstorms would not allow me to complete this flight that afternoon and I had to walk away empty handed on that occasion. I have been offered 'block rates' and discounted student housing for the completion of this course which the School doesn't have to do, but it's a very nice gesture of goodwill as well as a very helpful action to complete what I went to do.

I do intend to go back since I am impressed by the way they do help when things do go wrong. Also Morag on despatch owes me twenty lashes for not closing a VFR flight plan on time(!) I was told that on that occasion that the issue was quickly resolved by a quick 'phone call from the Tower and that to be mindful that Search and Rescue may be involved if it happens again. That was it, a good piece of constructive criticism in the form of an unofficial rollocking. Also, Pat Denton is teaching me the finer points of playing American Football.

I have to agree with the last post that sometimes things do go wrong, but by speaking to the right people and from my past experiences I don't think that there is much that cannot be corrected. The 'extra curricular activities' of joining fellow students and instructors alike at the Winghouse (as well as other grubhouses) was a delightful addition to the visits to Kissimmee even though my wife has barred me from visiting the Winghouse. I think she had a problem with me being served by well-endowed waitresses wearing skimpy black swimsuits.

On the whole, do your homework, keep to your mission and keep an eye on your account. Any issues at all, raise them with fellow students, Your Instructor, Jean Pierre, or even the delightful Ms Jessica Roldan. Nicely said, Mr (or Ms) Hobbit1983.

JAA Training at Orlando Flight Training
 

Hi everyone,

I've read the forum on OFT but want to know more about the JAA training on offer at the school, specifically the Pro-Pilot course.

- What is the JAA Groundschool like?

- How people found coming back to the UK to convert their FAA Single IR to a JAA Multi IR?

- The pros and cons of the Pro-Pilot course in general?

Thanks in advance.

i am due to start at oft in the next two weeks. please is any body out there at oft aat the moments to tell me more about the school, state of a/cs and life at orlando.A PM will do.
cheers

People,

any experiences wrt hour building at this school? (thats JUST hour building), ala, what are the a/c like, do they let you take the a/c away over night, that sort of stuff! :)

Thanks again, regards to all,:ok:

bigals

I think there getting better
 

Make sure you take out the extra insurance, was $100 for the year when I was there,, i friend of mine went recently and was not told about it and had an accident with an aircraft fire and it cost him about £1500 I think!!!! he was not told about the insurance thing which was a bit wrong, but I dont know the full details of it.

also AOPA can supply you with renters insurance and legal cover, well worth the $50ish it costs, especialy in a game where your renting $50k machines on a daily basis.

as for taking aircraft overnight, they did when I was there, but you had to book a few days in advance so they can work the shedual and also they had a min daily hour requirement, but not a problem if you going somewhere like the keys and staying overnight and flying back the next afternoon once sober!!! lol

last bit if advice,, CHECK YOUR RATES AND RECIPTS!!!!! its easy to lose $$$$ with out noticeing when hour building.

Oft Flight Instructor
 

Hey it's me BG from OFT. I taught there from May 2006 through Oct 2006. If there are any students out there perhaps from BCUC or what not that are interested in comming back to the states hit me up sometime. Perhaps a night on the town is doable. My email address is my full name kinda like this ***jaming****[email protected] You fill in the blanks. Hope to hear from some of you!

onefatpilot - you must have really caught him on an "off" day, my dealings with JP, i found him to be a great guy, bent over backwards to help me and me and fellow friends spent many an evening in the company of JP and staff from OFT and had a great time - in fact, looking forward to getting back out sometime soon to catch up with them all !!

Ditto as above OneFatPilot and BenAek. Was considering doing my CPL there, but not now after the way JP threatened to cancel my visa if I went to another flying school. What a :mad: !

As far as I'm aware, the school cannot cancel nor refuse to transfer visa's. I advise anyone in this situation to contact the local INS.

Go To OBA
 

See above, honestly.

Regards

Rossco

SD, as a temporary student you've got an M-1 visa. Such a visa is "sponsored" by a specific training organization, whether it's a university or a flight school. You cannot train at any other facility on such a visa. In fact, the organization that sponsors your M-1 visa is actually listed under "annotation" on the visa itself. (And yes, I did get my passport out to check that!)

So technically if you start training with another facility on your current M-1 visa you're in breach of your visa regulations. There's two ways this can be handled:
- The school is not cooperating with you, for whatever reason. In this case they have every right (and maybe even an obligation under TSA rules) to report YOU to the INS. Who will probably fine you, cancel your visa altogether and then deport you.
- The school is cooperating with you. In which case they can probably act as some sort of intermediary between you and your "new" flight school in such a way that technically you're still training at your old school, but the old school buys whatever services they need for you from the "new" school.

I'm not too sure about the obvious third way: You could try and contact the INS yourself, see if you can get your visa changed to another flight school. But I don't know if the INS allows this.

Whether the school wants to cooperate is probably up, to a large extent, to your own attitude towards the school, and the reason for switching. But switching schools, as a foreign student, is not an automatic right under the terms of your M-1 visa. And in certain cases, in the heat of an argument, the school may just use that against you, to "encourage" you to sit out the contract that you signed with them for instance.

So before everybody starts judging OFT (or any other school) badly because somebody was "threatened with deportation", I'd like to know the circumstances under which that happened. I, for one, had no problems with them. And when the weather threatened to upset my exam schedule seriously, they were very cooperative in letting me find a solution to do my exams at another school. (In the end that solution was never required. The weather got better in the nick of time.)

If you decide to transfer to a different school, OFT, or any flight school for that matter just has to transfer your visa over to the other school. This can be done in a matter of minutes and I know for a fact that OFT have done it before. The student is issued with a new I-20 with the name of the new school on it.

Good. But I expect that you've got to talk to the school AND to the INS first, before you start training at that other school. And nobody is legally required to cooperate. So if you ruin the relationship with either of them, they might just not want to help you.

So, still, I'd like to know what happened before someone was "threatened with deportation".

Also, does the INS issue a new visa as a matter of course, or do they require a more or less valid reason?

I "dealt" with JP sept-oct 2005 when I was there for a three-week PPL. But I only saw him once, I think, when I arrived at the school and he showed me around, went over the paperwork with me and such. I did not have any serious problems while being there, so I never needed to speak to him at any time.

I was there when the new chief pilot (Simon something) came on board and I found him a nice chap, easy to work with. The few problems I had were solved to my satisfaction, eventually, by him.

Im thinking of doing the JAA pro-pilot course there next october! anyone else going?

"Anyone heading to HAI in the near future?
What courses you doing??
I'll be over there soon enough doing JAA/FAA CPL and FAA CFI!:ok:"
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I thought you were off to do your helicopter licenses Sean?

Ya := Im going to HAI alright, just to do a PPL H though...Have decided that airline career is best for a few years first then move into Commercial choppers....

Who here has done the JAA ATPL ground school at OFT and how did you get on?
Cheers for replys
Sean :ok:

I heard somewhere that all flight schools are money grabbing whores! so just watch your wallet with them all!

I have used 6 flight schools for training and rental in my 4 and a half years flying now and 5 of them were very good! not going to say who the 6th was that I was dissapointed at! ;-)