Struggling with RTOs below V1
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Struggling with RTOs below V1
Doing type rating for the a320 atm, just had my first sim session on RTOs, im struggling badly with ONE ENGINE RTOs before v1 and at low speed as CM1/PM, after V1 isn't bad. Apparently I am not reacting fast enough with the rudder, aircraft ends up perpendicular in the runway/excursion. It was my glaring weakness during MCC as well. I need to know if this maneuver gets better with practice, because it feels like its such a reflex/reactive exercise that you either innately have it or you don't, thus more practice wouldn't benefit much. Is this supposed to be an easy exercise? is it uncommon for people to struggle with RTOs <V1? Worried that this is a massive red flag and would affect me during line operations. Please let me know if you have any helpful advice/suggestions because my confidence is in the dirt and im dreading the next RTO exercise.
Edit: RTO below V1 exercise was engine failure/damage, thus asymmetric yaw effect is introduced.
Edit: RTO below V1 exercise was engine failure/damage, thus asymmetric yaw effect is introduced.
Last edited by twinotterifr; 11th Oct 2022 at 23:16.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Yeah, I had a right nightmare with V1 cuts in 125m (after V1). Kept banging the wing. Eventually worked out where I was going wrong.
If you can, keep looking outside to get that big picture to assist in keeping straight.
If you can, keep looking outside to get that big picture to assist in keeping straight.
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Ask your instructor to demo it. It's what they are paid for. Also, severe damage usually gives an instant loss of thrust and is the trickiest to handle. Ask to try one with an engine flame out to build your technique.
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I have always found it useful, at the start of endorsement failures, to do a few OEI runs up the runway starting at a relatively high VEF and reducing back to min V1 so that the pilot can get a good feel for the rudder and yaw responses as the speed slowly and steadily increases .. generally sees a rapid build in confidence and the steering problems reduce greatly.
When it comes to low speed failures, especially below V1 min, you are stopping, not going. Main problem is uncontrollable yaw, so that needs the throttles snapped closed without delay .. otherwise it's all over, Red Rover, in the blink of an eye.
Reading your posts, it sounds to me like you are concentrating on rudder in the manner of a continued takeoff. Try the following order - aim for throttles closed, real fast, then, as near simultaneously as you can manage with the throttles, hit the brakes and rudder. On a high bypass engine, the run down after you close the throttles will still give you a yaw but, the quicker you close the throttles, the less that is and the quicker you can control direction. If you are looking out, the runway will tell you which rudder - you just are trying to stay on the runway track - if you are looking in, the DG, or equivalent, will do the job - you are trying to maintain the heading, initially.
(B737) even with raw cadets, I could have them able to stay on the runway even in 0/0 conditions through to the stop. It's just practice, providing that you know what you are trying to achieve.
If you have a low speed failure and you concentrate on rudder to stay on the runway, it just doesn't work so the end is inevitable. Get rid of the thrust and most of your problems with go with it.
to maintain centerline
Not possible with any failure. You will always yaw to the dead engine and run off centreline. Vmcg is determined by this criterion, for example. This supports my contention that you have your action priorities wrong - that, probably comes down to your instructor's not briefing you (pre-sim) adequately.
Yeah, I had a right nightmare with V1 cuts in 125m (after V1)
A lot easier on the clocks than visual, I suggest ? I don't recall many cadets at a couple of hundred hours total, who couldn't do the reject/continue for manipulation skill training on the clocks. Looking out is far harder due to the short parallax cues due to the low vis.
Ask your instructor to demo it.
I'd tend to disagree. In my experience, a detailed briefing and a bit more time on practice for the pilot U/T is more productive. (Plus, it's always embarrassing for the instructor if he manages to screw up the demo).
When it comes to low speed failures, especially below V1 min, you are stopping, not going. Main problem is uncontrollable yaw, so that needs the throttles snapped closed without delay .. otherwise it's all over, Red Rover, in the blink of an eye.
Reading your posts, it sounds to me like you are concentrating on rudder in the manner of a continued takeoff. Try the following order - aim for throttles closed, real fast, then, as near simultaneously as you can manage with the throttles, hit the brakes and rudder. On a high bypass engine, the run down after you close the throttles will still give you a yaw but, the quicker you close the throttles, the less that is and the quicker you can control direction. If you are looking out, the runway will tell you which rudder - you just are trying to stay on the runway track - if you are looking in, the DG, or equivalent, will do the job - you are trying to maintain the heading, initially.
(B737) even with raw cadets, I could have them able to stay on the runway even in 0/0 conditions through to the stop. It's just practice, providing that you know what you are trying to achieve.
If you have a low speed failure and you concentrate on rudder to stay on the runway, it just doesn't work so the end is inevitable. Get rid of the thrust and most of your problems with go with it.
to maintain centerline
Not possible with any failure. You will always yaw to the dead engine and run off centreline. Vmcg is determined by this criterion, for example. This supports my contention that you have your action priorities wrong - that, probably comes down to your instructor's not briefing you (pre-sim) adequately.
Yeah, I had a right nightmare with V1 cuts in 125m (after V1)
A lot easier on the clocks than visual, I suggest ? I don't recall many cadets at a couple of hundred hours total, who couldn't do the reject/continue for manipulation skill training on the clocks. Looking out is far harder due to the short parallax cues due to the low vis.
Ask your instructor to demo it.
I'd tend to disagree. In my experience, a detailed briefing and a bit more time on practice for the pilot U/T is more productive. (Plus, it's always embarrassing for the instructor if he manages to screw up the demo).
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RTO at low speed is one of the most difficult manoeuvres even the most experienced pilots have to perform. Low speed, little airflow over the rudder and high power from one engine whilst the other has failed can make the aircraft a handful to control and keep on the runway let alone straight. Can I suggest you consider having your feet up on the rudder pedals and not heels on the floor and then use differential braking to assist in trying to keep the aircraft straight and on the runway. As mentioned above, ask the institute demonstrate.
Only half a speed-brake
The OP is asking for help with EF at around 25-40 kts, orientation is not a problem - for him the directional control is.
If the other students don't struggle just please find the differences between your and their techniques and have the instructor demonstrate.
Which side do you end up deviating / making the excursion?
If the other students don't struggle just please find the differences between your and their techniques and have the instructor demonstrate.
Which side do you end up deviating / making the excursion?
Engine Failure at low speed is a handful and as a TRE I throw this into every sim session as a training topic. My own technique is to get it out of full reverse ASAP if the failure occurs below the ‘70kts’ call on decel. For failures above 100kts up to V1 don’t be too aggressive on the rudder, just squeeze the pedal and trend back to the Center line as opposed to trying to do it in the shortest possible time, this leads to over controlling. If I ever have a new trainee who is struggling I will arrange some extra time just to run failures at different speeds as purely a control exercise with no calls etc. Amazing how quickly you get the feel after doing five or six in a row and getting to play with the rudders in a ZERO jeopardy environment. Try not to make it into a ‘big’ issue, just speak to the training provider and ask for some targeted training to address the issue.
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An example of why the Heels On The Floor concept is not a wise idea for rudder pedal operation. Keep the heels off the floor with toes ready to apply brake immediately.
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I have always found it useful, at the start of endorsement failures, to do a few OEI runs up the runway starting at a relatively high VEF and reducing back to min V1 so that the pilot can get a good feel for the rudder and yaw responses as the speed slowly and steadily increases .. generally sees a rapid build in confidence and the steering problems reduce greatly.
When it comes to low speed failures, especially below V1 min, you are stopping, not going. Main problem is uncontrollable yaw, so that needs the throttles snapped closed without delay .. otherwise it's all over, Red Rover, in the blink of an eye.
Reading your posts, it sounds to me like you are concentrating on rudder in the manner of a continued takeoff. Try the following order - aim for throttles closed, real fast, then, as near simultaneously as you can manage with the throttles, hit the brakes and rudder. On a high bypass engine, the run down after you close the throttles will still give you a yaw but, the quicker you close the throttles, the less that is and the quicker you can control direction. If you are looking out, the runway will tell you which rudder - you just are trying to stay on the runway track - if you are looking in, the DG, or equivalent, will do the job - you are trying to maintain the heading, initially.
(B737) even with raw cadets, I could have them able to stay on the runway even in 0/0 conditions through to the stop. It's just practice, providing that you know what you are trying to achieve.
If you have a low speed failure and you concentrate on rudder to stay on the runway, it just doesn't work so the end is inevitable. Get rid of the thrust and most of your problems with go with it.
to maintain centerline
Not possible with any failure. You will always yaw to the dead engine and run off centreline. Vmcg is determined by this criterion, for example. This supports my contention that you have your action priorities wrong - that, probably comes down to your instructor's not briefing you (pre-sim) adequately.
Yeah, I had a right nightmare with V1 cuts in 125m (after V1)
A lot easier on the clocks than visual, I suggest ? I don't recall many cadets at a couple of hundred hours total, who couldn't do the reject/continue for manipulation skill training on the clocks. Looking out is far harder due to the short parallax cues due to the low vis.
Ask your instructor to demo it.
I'd tend to disagree. In my experience, a detailed briefing and a bit more time on practice for the pilot U/T is more productive. (Plus, it's always embarrassing for the instructor if he manages to screw up the demo).
When it comes to low speed failures, especially below V1 min, you are stopping, not going. Main problem is uncontrollable yaw, so that needs the throttles snapped closed without delay .. otherwise it's all over, Red Rover, in the blink of an eye.
Reading your posts, it sounds to me like you are concentrating on rudder in the manner of a continued takeoff. Try the following order - aim for throttles closed, real fast, then, as near simultaneously as you can manage with the throttles, hit the brakes and rudder. On a high bypass engine, the run down after you close the throttles will still give you a yaw but, the quicker you close the throttles, the less that is and the quicker you can control direction. If you are looking out, the runway will tell you which rudder - you just are trying to stay on the runway track - if you are looking in, the DG, or equivalent, will do the job - you are trying to maintain the heading, initially.
(B737) even with raw cadets, I could have them able to stay on the runway even in 0/0 conditions through to the stop. It's just practice, providing that you know what you are trying to achieve.
If you have a low speed failure and you concentrate on rudder to stay on the runway, it just doesn't work so the end is inevitable. Get rid of the thrust and most of your problems with go with it.
to maintain centerline
Not possible with any failure. You will always yaw to the dead engine and run off centreline. Vmcg is determined by this criterion, for example. This supports my contention that you have your action priorities wrong - that, probably comes down to your instructor's not briefing you (pre-sim) adequately.
Yeah, I had a right nightmare with V1 cuts in 125m (after V1)
A lot easier on the clocks than visual, I suggest ? I don't recall many cadets at a couple of hundred hours total, who couldn't do the reject/continue for manipulation skill training on the clocks. Looking out is far harder due to the short parallax cues due to the low vis.
Ask your instructor to demo it.
I'd tend to disagree. In my experience, a detailed briefing and a bit more time on practice for the pilot U/T is more productive. (Plus, it's always embarrassing for the instructor if he manages to screw up the demo).
PPRuNe Handmaiden
John,
You'd think that being on the clocks would be easier. However, not in the Challenger 350 FSI sim.
RTO at 125m. No problems.
The sim will crash at a bank angle of 5.1 deg roll. So... the advice was to maintain a look outside for a second or two longer to catch the roll. That worked. I haven't been a cadet for decades
You'd think that being on the clocks would be easier. However, not in the Challenger 350 FSI sim.
RTO at 125m. No problems.The sim will crash at a bank angle of 5.1 deg roll. So... the advice was to maintain a look outside for a second or two longer to catch the roll. That worked. I haven't been a cadet for decades
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my aim now is to react quicker with the throttle cut
I suspect that a rapid throttle chop will see most of your problem evaporate - it really sounds to me like you are finding things a bit too busy and just need to be able to sort it out in your own hand-eye universe. Keep in mind that, for a low speed cut, runway distance isn't going to be a major problem so don't fuss too much about hooking into the reverse - if you get on top of things quickly, you will be stopped by the time you get into idle reverse. Hopefully your training setup will allow for some practice runs - it is amazing just how quickly skill follows a bit of confidence building no hazard practice.
I very fondly recall an upgrade captain (744 to 732) who had never really got on top of engine failures as an F/O and had a real confidence problem. His intake buddy, likewise, was having considerable difficulty as well. What to do ? Easy, we needed to fix the problem there and then to make it go away. So, we organised a spare fun session (which had a spare session following which allowed us to run past the normal 4 hours - we ended up doing about 6 hours) in the box and really got into the failures and OEI approach and landing stuff. One of the best ways to maximise exposure is to exploit the freeze and reset capabilities (to minimise time wasting) and alternate LH and RH the whole time to keep fatigue under control. At the start of the session they were really having troubles with very simple failures. By the end, min V1 0/0 seizures (reject or continue - and that box put on a good shake, rattle and roll dance for the continued takeoff from min V1) were a doddle as were ILS recoveries 0/0 to a full stop. All done mandraulically, raw data, hand flown, single pilot by the end.
At the end, (and they were getting a bit knackered by then) I just said "I can't make it any harder for you, chaps, let's call it a day". Well, these two guys, dripping wet with sweat, clambered out of their seats with the biggest grins on their faces you could possibly imagine and swelled heads the size of watermelons. OEI presented no problems at all from that point. In fact, the operator checkie who did their final endorsement check confided in me afterwards that he really was expecting to see the upgrade fellow fail on his handling, based on his F/O history. Very satisfying for me as an instructor.
not in the Challenger 350 FSI sim
I have no experience in that particular box so I accept your comments. I did have some time in a Challenger box, years ago, and thought it a very nice little aeroplane. However, we didn't get into really critical OEI stuff. 5 deg roll limit ? - how ever do you handle a decent crosswind landing ?
I suspect that a rapid throttle chop will see most of your problem evaporate - it really sounds to me like you are finding things a bit too busy and just need to be able to sort it out in your own hand-eye universe. Keep in mind that, for a low speed cut, runway distance isn't going to be a major problem so don't fuss too much about hooking into the reverse - if you get on top of things quickly, you will be stopped by the time you get into idle reverse. Hopefully your training setup will allow for some practice runs - it is amazing just how quickly skill follows a bit of confidence building no hazard practice.
I very fondly recall an upgrade captain (744 to 732) who had never really got on top of engine failures as an F/O and had a real confidence problem. His intake buddy, likewise, was having considerable difficulty as well. What to do ? Easy, we needed to fix the problem there and then to make it go away. So, we organised a spare fun session (which had a spare session following which allowed us to run past the normal 4 hours - we ended up doing about 6 hours) in the box and really got into the failures and OEI approach and landing stuff. One of the best ways to maximise exposure is to exploit the freeze and reset capabilities (to minimise time wasting) and alternate LH and RH the whole time to keep fatigue under control. At the start of the session they were really having troubles with very simple failures. By the end, min V1 0/0 seizures (reject or continue - and that box put on a good shake, rattle and roll dance for the continued takeoff from min V1) were a doddle as were ILS recoveries 0/0 to a full stop. All done mandraulically, raw data, hand flown, single pilot by the end.
At the end, (and they were getting a bit knackered by then) I just said "I can't make it any harder for you, chaps, let's call it a day". Well, these two guys, dripping wet with sweat, clambered out of their seats with the biggest grins on their faces you could possibly imagine and swelled heads the size of watermelons. OEI presented no problems at all from that point. In fact, the operator checkie who did their final endorsement check confided in me afterwards that he really was expecting to see the upgrade fellow fail on his handling, based on his F/O history. Very satisfying for me as an instructor.
not in the Challenger 350 FSI sim
I have no experience in that particular box so I accept your comments. I did have some time in a Challenger box, years ago, and thought it a very nice little aeroplane. However, we didn't get into really critical OEI stuff. 5 deg roll limit ? - how ever do you handle a decent crosswind landing ?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Hi John,
Happily in real life the aircraft handles a lot better than the sim at FSI in CMH. Essentially, you have 7.5 deg to play with before you risk a canoe whacking the ground. Your choice. There's no flare as you know it, more of a check descent. So the rest of it is all yours. For landing, our XW limit is 24kt. I know, not much at all. The crab method is preferred. It is a fun aircraft to fly with buckets of excess thrust.
Happily in real life the aircraft handles a lot better than the sim at FSI in CMH. Essentially, you have 7.5 deg to play with before you risk a canoe whacking the ground. Your choice.
There's no flare as you know it, more of a check descent. So the rest of it is all yours. For landing, our XW limit is 24kt. I know, not much at all. The crab method is preferred. It is a fun aircraft to fly with buckets of excess thrust.
Moderator
It is a fun aircraft to fly with buckets of excess thrust.
It still couldn't be as much fun as a SuperCub, surely ? And, with that crosswind limit, it wouldn't be a starter for King Island work .....
It still couldn't be as much fun as a SuperCub, surely ? And, with that crosswind limit, it wouldn't be a starter for King Island work .....
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I have no experience in that particular box so I accept your comments. I did have some time in a Challenger box, years ago, and thought it a very nice little aeroplane. However, we didn't get into really critical OEI stuff. 5 deg roll limit ? - how ever do you handle a decent crosswind landing ?
747 will pod strike at 5 degrees bank, max crosswind is 36kts.
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What I recommend, for engine failures before or just after V1: STEP ON THE BUG !!
If your headingbug is to the right, push right foot down, it`s a no brainer !!
If your headingbug is to the left.....guess what ?
Good luck !
If your headingbug is to the right, push right foot down, it`s a no brainer !!
If your headingbug is to the left.....guess what ?
Good luck !
Doing type rating for the a320 atm, just had my first sim session on RTOs, im struggling badly with ONE ENGINE RTOs before v1 and at low speed as CM1/PM, after V1 isn't bad. Apparently I am not reacting fast enough with the rudder, aircraft ends up perpendicular in the runway/excursion. It was my glaring weakness during MCC as well. I need to know if this maneuver gets better with practice, because it feels like its such a reflex/reactive exercise that you either innately have it or you don't, thus more practice wouldn't benefit much. Is this supposed to be an easy exercise? is it uncommon for people to struggle with RTOs <V1? Worried that this is a massive red flag and would affect me during line operations. Please let me know if you have any helpful advice/suggestions because my confidence is in the dirt and im dreading the next RTO exercise.
Edit: RTO below V1 exercise was engine failure/damage, thus asymmetric yaw effect is introduced.
Edit: RTO below V1 exercise was engine failure/damage, thus asymmetric yaw effect is introduced.