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Struggling with RTOs below V1

Old 14th Oct 2022, 10:49
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Read up on Vmcg

Fair comment ... but we need to keep in mind that V1 can be quite significantly above Vmcg (and usually is). In such cases, a below-V1 failure doesn't necessarily invoke Vmcg style problems.

If you are down in the weeds around min V1, well that's a different yarn to tell .....
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Old 14th Oct 2022, 11:03
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The post title is interesting as RTOs won't be done unless you are below V1. I hope.

To keep straight you need to be looking out the front. Also to keep straight it helps to get really familiar with the controls that you will need - I'm a Boeing pilot so the read across may not be perfect but for me I keep rehearsing where my hands need to go for the speed brake and reversers so that I don't need to look inside for them. Don't rush - once the THR is closed the remaining actions can be done at a steady pace without hands flashing around the FD at the speed of light.

JT is correct - if you only do one action it's close the THR. This stops the acceleration, removes the asymmetry and activates the autobrake RTO function. If you're too slow for the RTO to activate then stopping is not a problem.

Finally, you're doing a type rating - it's your instructor's job to teach you how to do things.

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Old 15th Oct 2022, 11:45
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine View Post
... thank heavens, then, for F27, L188, B727 and B737. Real aeroplanes with little fear of crosswind.


Are you suggesting the Queen of the Skies isn’t a real aeroplane? I won’t hear a word said against her! Just kidding of course. Actually I entirely agree with the point you and others made that the best thing the OP can do is close the thrust levers. Presumably that’s “retard” in Airbus speak. That should take care of the asymmetric effect.

Also, I wonder if the OP is rushing the RTO. It’s easy to get hyped up and rush the actions. A good trainer if they observe this will demo/patter the correct technique and cadence.

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Old 15th Oct 2022, 12:00
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Originally Posted by dera View Post
By landing wings level.

747 will pod strike at 5 degrees bank, max crosswind is 36kts.
Might wish to refer to the FCTM static geometry values for that number.

Re max crosswind, that is not a limit, it is a demonstrated amount, and the B747, B744 does quite a lot better, it has excellent aileron effects and is not at a rudder authority limit at the demonstrated x-wind. Having said that, it is possible to have a miserable day... Back in 91 after closing the taps and about to put in rudder to align the x-wind went from 35 to a measured 64Kts. The rudder didn't get put in, as the track suddenly went heading downwind... And we touched down with a lot of drift. Apparently it was funny for the other guys who were able to comment on my calculating what was going to happen with a GA at that point, and I got a divide by zero solution. GS 100 it's, drifts are impressive.

JTs low speed reject advice is solid. Get your IP/TRI to run a continuous series of thrust sets and throttle chops. Getting the THR LVR back to idle ASAP, and rudder towards the desired direction will take the outcome. You are not expected to remain on the Centerline, but you should be minimising the offset.

Airborne get the IP to cycle the thrust one engine at a time to get the coordination of rudder response to thrust decay down. (Crash override at first for V2 condition...) Saves the motion system.

good luck, the real plane tends to be kinder, particularly if your giving a seizure failure which is a nonsense model of failure.
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Old 15th Oct 2022, 13:24
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Finally had my sim session revisiting RTOs and EFATOs after our LOFT section, the thrust cut worked wonders. Was practicing and visualizing RTOs since my previous session throughout the week, I had [email protected] focus for the entire exercise and was not at any point overwhelmed in the 8 attempts, except for 1 (startle effect due to engine out exactly at v1, and didn't know whether to continue or stop). Nevertheless, instructor was happy with the steep improvement and my confidence is back on track. Thank you so much to everyone with the advice!

Last edited by twinotterifr; 15th Oct 2022 at 13:55.
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Old 15th Oct 2022, 22:37
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and my confidence is back on track.

Well done, that man. It's amazing how many problems come down to task saturation and the brain's just getting too overloaded ... life now should be a lot better for you in the box.

the thrust cut worked wonders

I am wondering why your IP didn't emphasise that necessity at the very start of the failure briefings ?

Airborne get the IP to cycle the thrust

Although many folks probably would howl me down, my favourite approach to helping students get on top of airborne failures is to work things back to 0/0 min V1 failures with the failure timed so that the yaw starts half way through the rotation flare during the takeoff sequence. That's about the busiest it will get and, once on top of that scenario, the box holds no problems. The 732 box I referred to earlier had the seizure modelled on a real-world FDR record of an engine impact with a large bird (getting up to flamingo size) and it really seized one's attention big time. This failure scenario (during the rotation) was the epitome of shake, rattle and roll and required much (and rapid) pushing and pulling by the pilot. The ramp up in confidence was palpable. Most pilots were able to get on top of the handling. Those who couldn't still derived significant benefit. The only thing I don't know is how the fidelity might relate to the aircraft, but the stick and rudder training value appeared to be good.

Feedback from one student who, sometime later, had a fairly severe engine failure on the line was that the training resulted in his not even raising a sweat during the event so, I guess, I can sleep well at night ?

Are you suggesting the Queen of the Skies isn’t a real aeroplane

.. that is the AW650 to me .... two Fokkers in close form going nowhere terribly quickly ...
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Old 17th Oct 2022, 08:00
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It’s great to hear you’re back on track. Well done!


I had to Google AW650. If you’d said “whistling wheelbarrow” I would’ve known what you meant! Actually many years ago as a spotty Air Cadet I was seated in one during an engine run. Sadly its flying days were long gone and this was an instructional airframe. I think the last one flying in the RAF was at Boscombe Down? Excuse the thread drift.

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Old 17th Oct 2022, 08:09
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Whistling Wheelbarrow, indeed, was the alternative moniker. IPEC, in Oz, operated a -101 and a couple of -222s for quite a while, in addition to a couple of DC9 freighters. The Argosy was not a good aircraft to fly in trail with as the booms tended to do quite a dance ....... but, for the route distances involved, it did a sterling job as a freighter.

Armstrong Whitworth AW.650 Argosy (IPEC) - The Little Aviation Museum
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