What will UK CAA regs look like post Brexit?
Thread Starter
What will UK CAA regs look like post Brexit?
So I have the right to work in the UK but only have an FAA and ICAO ATP/ATPL. Is there any possibility that converting to the new UK CAA license will be any less painful than converting to EASA? At a guess I imagine that they will just replace the words EASA with UK CAA and job done. Exactly the same.
I know the industry is bleak right now, I'm thinking a few years ahead.
I know the industry is bleak right now, I'm thinking a few years ahead.
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I don't see the UK flight training syllabus to change that much in a few years, so it will still be 14 exams for the foreseeable future. I would suggest you get an EASA ATPL now and from April 2021 you can apply for a UK CAA national license with a EASA license. As of now, the opposite is not possible.
Thread Starter
I will just bight the bullet and go UK CAA. I realise that doing the conversion in EU is probably much cheaper and I can still convert it to UK up until 2022, but that is just a level of screwing around I can't do. I also have no right to work in the EU or have a use for an EASA license.
Thread Starter
Im not going to pay keep currency on a CAA and EASA licence.
Unless an examiner can sign off a check ride for CAA and EASA at the same time it's not worth it.
Unless an examiner can sign off a check ride for CAA and EASA at the same time it's not worth it.
Last edited by Climb150; 13th Jan 2021 at 02:07.
Climb150
At last. It's amazing how many thousands of people seem to think they NEED an EASA licence. People who live in the UK queueing up to give away a UK licence for an EASA one which is valid in Europe but for which most of them will have no guaranteed right of abode.
At last. It's amazing how many thousands of people seem to think they NEED an EASA licence. People who live in the UK queueing up to give away a UK licence for an EASA one which is valid in Europe but for which most of them will have no guaranteed right of abode.
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I think it’s more to do with continuity and keeping a recognised licence until such time as there’s a framework within the U.K. to deal with. As it stands the guys who hold EASA licences are unaffected whereas the U.K. guys are in total limbo.
Re: the CAA recognising EASA but not the other way around - it kind of shows you who the good guys are doesn't it?
Re: being in total limbo. Someone flying a G-reg can carry on doing so exactly as they have for years. Exactly like an FAA certificate holder can still fly an N-reg and a TC licence holder can still fly a C-reg. Someone flying a D-reg on a UK licence would have a very good reason to SOLI - but someone who flies a C152 or is working towards a CPL? Less so...
Re: being in total limbo. Someone flying a G-reg can carry on doing so exactly as they have for years. Exactly like an FAA certificate holder can still fly an N-reg and a TC licence holder can still fly a C-reg. Someone flying a D-reg on a UK licence would have a very good reason to SOLI - but someone who flies a C152 or is working towards a CPL? Less so...
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I don’t think I could ever call the CAA good guys, particularly when they are without doubt the most incompetent Authority I have ever dealt with. That being said EASA haven’t exactly been good either and it leaves a lot to be desired.
Educated Hillbilly
" I would suggest you get an EASA ATPL now and from April 2021 you can apply for a UK CAA national license with a EASA license. As of now, the opposite is not possible".
The above is not correct on the current agreements.
From the UK CAA Website
https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transit...ercial-pilots/
The CAA is currently developing a process to enable pilots to apply for the issue of a UK Part-FCL licence based on the licence they hold with an EASA member state. This will be available to pilots that previously held an EASA licence and transferred it out, and to pilots that hold a licence issued by an EASA member state prior to 31 December 2020. This will be available from 1 April 2021.
EASA licences issued after the 31/12/2020 are not covered in the existing agreements. So if the poster now gains an EASA license it is not currently eligible for UK FCL issue.
There may well be agreements later on but they don't exist at the moment.
Like wise the 2 year validation is only available to EASA license holders holding a valid licesnse as of the 31/12/2020, they are not applicable to new issue EASA licenses.
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalap...etail&id=10006
Copied from the validation form.
This validation applies to any licence issued prior to 1 January 2021 including any rating included within that licence that remains valid until 31 December 2022 (the licence subject to this validation must have an issue date prior to 1 January 2021, as stated in Section II of the EASA Part-FCL licence (EASA Form 141).
The above is not correct on the current agreements.
From the UK CAA Website
https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transit...ercial-pilots/
The CAA is currently developing a process to enable pilots to apply for the issue of a UK Part-FCL licence based on the licence they hold with an EASA member state. This will be available to pilots that previously held an EASA licence and transferred it out, and to pilots that hold a licence issued by an EASA member state prior to 31 December 2020. This will be available from 1 April 2021.
EASA licences issued after the 31/12/2020 are not covered in the existing agreements. So if the poster now gains an EASA license it is not currently eligible for UK FCL issue.
There may well be agreements later on but they don't exist at the moment.
Like wise the 2 year validation is only available to EASA license holders holding a valid licesnse as of the 31/12/2020, they are not applicable to new issue EASA licenses.
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalap...etail&id=10006
Copied from the validation form.
This validation applies to any licence issued prior to 1 January 2021 including any rating included within that licence that remains valid until 31 December 2022 (the licence subject to this validation must have an issue date prior to 1 January 2021, as stated in Section II of the EASA Part-FCL licence (EASA Form 141).
Thread Starter
portsharbourflyer,
That settles it then. Absolutely not going to mess around with EASA. I'm hoping that the testing centres in the USA will be able to administer the UK CAA ATPL exams just like they can do the EASA exams now.
That settles it then. Absolutely not going to mess around with EASA. I'm hoping that the testing centres in the USA will be able to administer the UK CAA ATPL exams just like they can do the EASA exams now.
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No offense but spending time or money getting EASA or UK CAA in 2021 is utterly pointless. If you have a FAA it’s probably more useful and less hassle to maintain.
If you read in between the lines its obvious aviation in Europe has seen its day and this is another barrier directly to put people off training and getting lisences. Why spend any time and energy trawling 14000 questions banks and reading stuff which you will never use in the real world just to make the exams hard to pass is beyond me...... how many jobs will really exist in the UK??
If you read in between the lines its obvious aviation in Europe has seen its day and this is another barrier directly to put people off training and getting lisences. Why spend any time and energy trawling 14000 questions banks and reading stuff which you will never use in the real world just to make the exams hard to pass is beyond me...... how many jobs will really exist in the UK??
Last edited by BAe 146-100; 14th Jan 2021 at 14:05.
Thread Starter
Bae 146
I did say in my original post that this is for a couple of years from now after the dust settles from CoVID and the industry is in a little better shape. I was aiming at the biz jet work too as I already have a biz jet type.
I did say in my original post that this is for a couple of years from now after the dust settles from CoVID and the industry is in a little better shape. I was aiming at the biz jet work too as I already have a biz jet type.
Educated Hillbilly
Again the reason you wont see any information detailing the Validation of the UK Part FCL license at the moment, is the UK Part FCL license is an ICAO license.
Most EASA NAAs already have a process for which a 12 month validation of a third country ICAO license can be obtained where an operator sees a need to employ a non EASA licensed pilot. Therefore the UK FCL licences is covered by the existing agreements for ICAO licenses in EASA.
So while this is not quite the same as mutual recognition; it is again incorrect to say that EASA does not recognise the UK FCL licesnse.
The EASA 12 month validation process for ICAO licenses covers UK FCL licences.
Most EASA NAAs already have a process for which a 12 month validation of a third country ICAO license can be obtained where an operator sees a need to employ a non EASA licensed pilot. Therefore the UK FCL licences is covered by the existing agreements for ICAO licenses in EASA.
So while this is not quite the same as mutual recognition; it is again incorrect to say that EASA does not recognise the UK FCL licesnse.
The EASA 12 month validation process for ICAO licenses covers UK FCL licences.
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rudestuff
How about non-UK nationals, foreign students, who have done their training in the UK and don't plan on staying in the UK long term? (such as my case).
These people are completely screwed right now. And at a competitive disadvantage against EASA holders who can work and fly as if they held UK licences, but not the other way around...
How about non-UK nationals, foreign students, who have done their training in the UK and don't plan on staying in the UK long term? (such as my case).
These people are completely screwed right now. And at a competitive disadvantage against EASA holders who can work and fly as if they held UK licences, but not the other way around...
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portsharbourflyer
Correct me if I am wrong but validation applies to licence holders with 1000+ flight hours. UK CPL/IR holders with 200 hours are absolutely screwed as of now.
Correct me if I am wrong but validation applies to licence holders with 1000+ flight hours. UK CPL/IR holders with 200 hours are absolutely screwed as of now.
Educated Hillbilly
Central Scrutinizer,
Yes the validation does have minimum experience requirements, these vary depending on if it is a CPL/IR or a full ATPL with a multi crew rating on it.
I would also point out that most European Operators use to have fluency requirements in the local language to actually stop non-nationals applying, so the EASA License didn't in practice really create the freedom to work across Europe as many like to believe or make out. That was certainly the case for French, German and Scandinavian companies.
Also as stated in my previous post the UK is only recognising EASA licences issued before the transistion date, some one gaining an EASA licese after the 1st Jan 2021 is not eligible for the UK validation or UK FCL issue on the current agreements (that may change), so it isn't the one way thing that everyone keeps stating.
Yes the validation does have minimum experience requirements, these vary depending on if it is a CPL/IR or a full ATPL with a multi crew rating on it.
I would also point out that most European Operators use to have fluency requirements in the local language to actually stop non-nationals applying, so the EASA License didn't in practice really create the freedom to work across Europe as many like to believe or make out. That was certainly the case for French, German and Scandinavian companies.
Also as stated in my previous post the UK is only recognising EASA licences issued before the transistion date, some one gaining an EASA licese after the 1st Jan 2021 is not eligible for the UK validation or UK FCL issue on the current agreements (that may change), so it isn't the one way thing that everyone keeps stating.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 22nd Jan 2021 at 23:27.
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If it wasn't for the pandemic, Brexit and the whole issue of mutual recognition between UK CAA & EASA would be a lot clearer and I believe, a lot different. Most regulators are still working from home and it's going to take some time for the fog to lift and common sense to prevail. No doubt the HAS to be a meeting of minds to avoid chaos.
IMHO, the new, recently signed, Bilateral Agreement (BA) for mutual recognition of licenses and ratings with a simple conversion process, between EASA and the FAA (the latter being a third country in EASA speak) points the way to exactly how EASA will allow conversion from UK CAA (a third country now) to an EASA Part-FCL license in the future.
My current advice, which UK and European schools will likley advise against for obvious reason, is to use all the advantages of the FAA system (ease and cost) and then convert (later) to EASA using the BA. If you went to a school in the USA that also had UK approvals (if you are based in the UK) it is the icing on the cake! If the training process is well thought out, you could get your UK & FAA PPL's, FAA IR, get some good VFR and IFR time under you belt, sit the UK or EASA ATPL's when you are ready and the job market looks better and then rely on the BA to convert as needed. I estimate that this could all be done for less than £40,000 spread out over 2 years - surely this is affordable and a sensible approach? If I was starting again, it is certainly what I would do.
Rudestuff is right, stop agonising over EASA right now, go for a UK license if you are based in the UK and convert later when a job is likely in Europe.
If you want EASA and/or UK now, use the FAA BA to you're advantage, it will save time and money.
IMHO, the new, recently signed, Bilateral Agreement (BA) for mutual recognition of licenses and ratings with a simple conversion process, between EASA and the FAA (the latter being a third country in EASA speak) points the way to exactly how EASA will allow conversion from UK CAA (a third country now) to an EASA Part-FCL license in the future.
My current advice, which UK and European schools will likley advise against for obvious reason, is to use all the advantages of the FAA system (ease and cost) and then convert (later) to EASA using the BA. If you went to a school in the USA that also had UK approvals (if you are based in the UK) it is the icing on the cake! If the training process is well thought out, you could get your UK & FAA PPL's, FAA IR, get some good VFR and IFR time under you belt, sit the UK or EASA ATPL's when you are ready and the job market looks better and then rely on the BA to convert as needed. I estimate that this could all be done for less than £40,000 spread out over 2 years - surely this is affordable and a sensible approach? If I was starting again, it is certainly what I would do.
Rudestuff is right, stop agonising over EASA right now, go for a UK license if you are based in the UK and convert later when a job is likely in Europe.
If you want EASA and/or UK now, use the FAA BA to you're advantage, it will save time and money.
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If it wasn't for the pandemic, Brexit and the whole issue of mutual recognition between UK CAA & EASA would be a lot clearer and I believe, a lot different. Most regulators are still working from home and it's going to take some time for the fog to lift and common sense to prevail. No doubt the HAS to be a meeting of minds to avoid chaos.
IMHO, the new, recently signed, Bilateral Agreement (BA) for mutual recognition of licenses and ratings with a simple conversion process, between EASA and the FAA (the latter being a third country in EASA speak) points the way to exactly how EASA will allow conversion from UK CAA (a third country now) to an EASA Part-FCL license in the future.
IMHO, the new, recently signed, Bilateral Agreement (BA) for mutual recognition of licenses and ratings with a simple conversion process, between EASA and the FAA (the latter being a third country in EASA speak) points the way to exactly how EASA will allow conversion from UK CAA (a third country now) to an EASA Part-FCL license in the future.
Or should I just wait and hope for regulators to apply that common sense that never materialised itself, and do something else with my life in the meantime?