MPL experiences from students

[Contact Approach]

glush

I agree and this aligns with my experience. The problem the average mpl cadet finds further down the line is that they lack the core flying skills that may be required later on down the line. There’s no substitute when it’s comes down to learning.

[Bealzebub]

dns

Why wouldn’t you be able to amass experience from instructing? People have been doing it for decades. What will you do if that airline job isn’t ready and waiting when you acquire your licence?

For the foreseeable future, airlines are going to be able shake trees and have pilots with years of experience and many thousands of hours fall from the branches. The perception that “airline pilot” is an entry level job needs a reality check.

[Contact Approach]

Originally Posted by parkfell

The A.320 simulator whilst far more sophisticated offers far less of the necessary challenge for the big bad world.

I don’t believe the a320 should be permitted to learn the fundamentals on during such a critical stage of training. It’s like learning how to ride a bike with stabilisers on and never taking them off.

[dns]

Bealzebub

If every future airline pilot is going to be an instructor first, surely that's going to create an enormous excess, meaning most of them won't get any flight time anyway!

​​​​​Airlines have always taken minimal hours pilots (whether from their own integrated training schemes, or modular hours builders), if that's no longer the case I'm wondering how they are to fill the positions in future

[parkfell]

Originally Posted by dns

..........will UK airlines be taking on recruits with less than 1000 hours?​​​​​

Historically turbo prop operators would often take new qualified CPL/IR + MCC holders, both from the Integrated or Modular route.
Ryanair offered mentored schemes at the MCC phase

Once C-19 vaccinations are rolled out, normality will slowly begin to return. In the meantime keep the day job and study part time once you have your Class One Medical and PPL issued.

[havick]

Originally Posted by tolip1

Contact Approach

I just don't get the same feedback as you have been. We aren't going to agree. Where is the evidence that we don't have core flying skills? Where is the increased incident rate of MPL Vs non?

Pretty well evidenced in unaided visual approaches and crosswind landing handling.

[Contact Approach]

I’ve flown with mpl guys in pa28s and they couldn’t land, they struggled with steep turns and they used aileron throughout the stall just to name a few things...

[parkfell]

This would apply to any student, irrespective of the type of course, whose first twenty hours or so was poorly taught; it is not a function of the MPL training, but more than likely as a result of poor teaching, as you refer to more than one individual.

I refer you to my earlier comments about the importance of quality training.

The start of the slippery slope was in the early 1990s
when CAP 509 “Approved Schools” started to experience difficulty
employing ex CFS A2 QFIs.
That is not to say that quality non military FI do not exist, rather a dilution of standards and standardisation.

[Bealzebub]

Airlines have always taken minimal hours pilots (whether from their own integrated training schemes, or modular hours builders), if that's no longer the case I'm wondering how they are to fill the positions in future

Not in the 42 years I have been flying for them. Usually the only sourced low hour pilots have come from their own cadet schemes ( where they have them). The other two primary sources have been career advancers and ex-military. In recent years the latter group has decreased as a primary source and probably to the extent that the cadet group has increased. For the career advancers it is usually those with the better experience. A lot of pilots would traditionally instruct, fly out in Africa or Asia or look for “aerial work” opportunities that would provide the hours and exposure that would eventually lead to an airline interview. The airline “jet jobs” would be the pinnacle level of many of those aspirants.

To whatever extent, and in whatever proportion that is likely to be the case well into the future. I cannot see any shortage of significant experience within the next 5 years just from the redundant pilot group and the build up of the traditional sources. As cadet schemes come back on line it is likely to be from the same selective programmes.

[A320LGW]

Originally Posted by skyblue12

The training was good, we started on the line with far more Jet sim experience than someone with an fATPL, yes it does sort of limit you to multi-crew airline ops but thats what you signed up for so I don't see it as a huge disadvantage. We were lucky and got a tax free 'bond' added to our salary. We should save in the region of £30k over several years on income tax. The bond probably doesn't exist anymore and don't think it ever will again due to the large payment if MPL pilots are made redundant.

You mean they reduced your salary by X, labelled X a 'bond' and paid it to you under that title?

This meant you avoided taxes on a part of your salary. HMRC took a dim view of it. That is the reason it is no longer offered.

[Bealzebub]

HMRC didn’t “take a dim view of it.” HMRC agreed it.

[dns]

So basically beazlebub, you're saying that modular students should give up now?

[Bealzebub]

No! They never have done. “Self improver” pilots have always been a major part of the career landscape. It is the expectations that have changed. Read these forums for the last 20 years (and longer) and you will see it for yourself.

[A320LGW]

Regarding the topic of MPL v ATPL, I think it's one for the trainers to answer as they are the ones who see both sets of students. As an ATPL student I can only comment how it felt following my path onto an airline type rating. For me personally I have a very set and firm idea of handling in my mind and it was built into me in initial training, particularly with regard crosswind landings and "seat of the pants" feel and all round awareness. The picture has always been clear for me when flying.

From talking to line trainers about how they find MPL cadets or anecdotal evidence from their colleagues at airlines who have a lot of MPL cadets come through, it is overwhelmingly negative. The pilots and hobbyists almost always seem to be set apart when storm *insert name* shows up, it is more often than not a one man show those days with MPL guys I have always been told. Aileron use in particular during crosswind landings comes up a lot, many don't know quite know what they are supposed to be doing with it or the rudder.

Could it be due to lack of real aircraft experience in less than favourable conditions? Flying 25kts across in a light SEP in the early days sure did lay the foundations quite nicely from personal experience anyway.

[dns]

Bealzebub

But you just posted that low hour pilots only come from airline cadet schemes.

​​​​​

[Bealzebub]

I think you are confusing low houred commercial pilots with low houred airline pilots? Airlines have never traditionally had much of a requirement for the former outside of their cadet programmes. Usually because they have never needed to. If you think they will in the future then roll the dice!

[bringbackthe80s]

I find it quite funny nowadays that atpl guys with 180 hrs at best are the experienced seat of the pants flyers. While 80 something hrs mpls don’t have a clue in mighty crosswinds or challenging extreme scenarios.
My humble opinion after 21 years of flying is that cadet 80 hrs vs cadet 180 hrs make very little difference, selection and training is the only thing that counts with young pilots like that (as it does for more experienced ones also to be honest).
This was a thing of the past in the last decade though. But given the reset we are living, it could be coming back soon you never know.

[poporange]

The risk maybe be high although, there are still people have been doing it for decades.

[Climb150]

I beg to differ. The 120 hour piston aircraft flight time difference between MPL and CPL grads is very evident in aircraft handling. That 120 hours has a lot more take off and landings with much increased solo time.

Once both get to 1000 hours total time the difference is arguably negligible but to say MPL is superior or prepares a student better for jet ops is pure bull. It's just a money maker for either the flight school, airline or both.

[dream747]

Whilst everyone should heed the opinions and respect the experience of guys who have been in the flying business for a long time, let’s not forget ultimately it is what the airlines (your potential future employers) are looking for that counts.

I come from a part of the world whereby modular flight training is not available. Many aspiring pilots go to independent flying schools to obtain their licences but find difficulty in securing employment. Most airlines here require cadets to go through a recognised integrated flight training course to obtain their ATPL/MPL, which the airlines can have the ability to monitor the progress of the cadets and have oversight of the programme syllabus delivery with the assured standards. This is seen as a necessity for the airlines, to minimise any possible poor training standards that MAY come from other flying schools that the airlines have no affiliation with.

Do your flight training (ATPL or MPL) with an institution which is recognised by the airlines, this will give you the best chance of employment when things pick up eventually.