Be aware before starting at Pilot Flight “Academy” Sandefjord Norway. Terminated from
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Be aware before starting at Pilot Flight “Academy” Sandefjord Norway. Terminated from
I just want to post this as a warning, so people know what they get into if they join. I would advice against this school. If you still want to start a ATPL course in this covid times in Norway, I would look more into CAA or OSM.
Hi... It is difficult, but must I feel my story must be told.
On Monday Pilot Flight “Academy” terminated my integrated ATPL studies, so now I am sitting here without anything and a large loan. I do not know what to do and just feel everything is hopeless. It's so painful, embarrassing and I also feel cheated.
I think it was difficult from the start and have been nervous throughout the studies, so I was never really calm and was afraid something like this could happen. I may never have been skilled enough to be a pilot, but I had hope and a dream that I might also become something. In general I found most things difficult, but I was working hard, so I the end I was pulling through. My first sitting was this summer and I passed exam in POF, mass and balance and VFR communications. I failed IFR communications, but that would have been very easy to pass next try. I had the test the same day as mass and balance, and focused to little on the small details.
The reason I have been terminated, is that I failed to score 75% on a final school test in General Navigation, so after four attempts they terminate you no matter how it goes. Each subject often consists of 3 tests. 1 and 2 which each contain a separate part of the material, and a final one which has everything like an exam. We were the first class to have it this way, previous classes have had tests 1,2 and 3, without final tests that are similar to an exam. Normal tests are 25 questions with 1/3 of course material. Ut the last final is the same as an exam, identical to exam mode in aviation exam software. I dont not think we have had any more time to prepare before this final test, and this way of having a tests was decided a little after we started. Maybe a good way to get higher success on the exams, but it makes it harder to pass the last one.
You need to read on last learned material and then also previous material, but we have not gotten any more time. This test is after the course is finished. General Navigation lasted 3weeks, 8-16 studies every day and one test a week. So if you fail one test, you really have to study because you instantly start with a new subject. The school regulations with the number of tests did not change either.
It is not an easy subject, a lot of theory, formulas and ways of calculating. Before an exam, you will have time to read extra on the subject, but the school test which is just as difficult, you take right after you finish the theory. If you do not pass it, then you have to read twice with the next subject, because a new subject starts right afterwards. New test every week... Some I have spoken to with generally generally high high scores in other subjects, passed just over 75% on this final test. At least 1/3 failed on the first try, so several had 2 and 3 tries on this one.
I never think the teacher was of any help either, as she was a young girl, who I felt really not was confident with the subject herself. 20 something year old and just a jobless ATPL student, and she said she did not really want to teach, but it was here best option at the moment. The quality of the teachers varies, from older people with good knowledge and good pedagogy, to some younger people who I feel almost only been put there after their own completed education. So learning the theory in this subject was difficult, and even more difficult when it came to solving EASA atpl questions in aviation exam.
The first attempt I think I had in August, the second try a week later. Then I had another month from the second test and last now last Friday. First try 68%, second try something with 50%, I think gave up a bit, third time 68% and fourth test 68%. Something like that.
After second attempt you need to have two extra hours with a instructor, before you can take it again. After the third attempt, there will be a conversation. It was a fairly long time in between tests, but at the same time you have other subjects with tests every week and school every day 8-16. So when you also think the other subjects are difficult, it is difficult to sit down and also study the other subjects at the same time. I could have been reading 24/7, but you also need breaks. So I somewhat was pushing the test in front of me, because thought I would have quite a good time before the last attempt. But then it was a final test in radio navigation, that took too much time and tries, but I passed that one. This module was first general navigation, air law, metrology and then RNav.
In the conversation they say that you only have 4 attempts etc, but I did not think it really was this way. I just did not take it seriously enough and thought in a expensive private“school”, you would get some kind of flexible help.
In my class there were two students who started for the second time, when they failed the tests and had fallen behind earlier. So I always thought that the "school" would help in some way if students failed. One of these student was really not cut for it, and failed several exams, but he also went on to module number two. Before everything stopped and he dropped out, but they might have gotten the money from module two out of him as well. The second person was with me on the fourth try og general navigation, where he got exactly 75%.
But he got a deal with the school to postpone exam in principle of flight, which was in the first module, so he will have the exam next year.
It's one of the more difficult subjects, but I passed the exam and finished it. But I thought that I would get a similar solution.
But this was due to covid they were telling me, as we had to have some of the teaching at home at the end of the studies. I think it was four students that got this postponed, until the end of the studies next year. They also say that they passed the last test within four attempts, so it can not be compared to me. But we had these tests at home, so you could easily cheat if you needed to.
General Navigation we were supposed to have in first module, but it was moved to second module due to covid. So if general navigation really would have been a problem, I would have been terminated then, and not now when I have paid 2/4 of the integrated ATPL. They also have no understanding of this, as this was a joint decision by us students with our representative they say. The only thing I heard was that it would be moved forward, because it would be too difficult to do at home and only have instructions through zoom (video).
There was also another student who was terminated now, but he had postponed general navigation and failed mass and balance on the previous exam.
I managed 3/4 in the the exam sitting, where I failed IFR communications, but that one I could easily pass next try. So the other three subjects in this module have have been difficult, but I think I had a good chance to pass these exams, especially with extra reading time, but I was not even allowed to try to take them.
They say is such a short time and that you must have completed all the subjects within 18 months, so you need to take everything without any delays. It have now been 3 months from the first exams and I could have finished 6/7 subjects out of 12. They are also struggling to get enough planes in the air, so there have been long delays for students. But they keep signing up partnerships with foreign airlines and taking inn more students every half year. So its not like we would start our flying right away.
The payment consists of 4 equal payments, so you actually pay way too much when you have the theory. So I feel that they will win much more financially by getting me out and also taking in bad students that fail. So now I have paid like 100$ per hour I have sat in a classroom with 25 students. Paid 2/4 and is not left with anything. Those who had to start again, paid about 4,000$ to take the theory module again, so then it goes without saying that the theory does not cost that much.
That arrangement with payment probably worked well before, when you flew and had theory at the same time. But now you start with theory. So it's a really good financially to fail students.
Since it is a private school I personally pay much money for it, and its also approved by the Norwegian state, when it comes to students loans.
I'm sitting here now, with a broken dream and a big loan. Just like what people warn about. So If you really still think you can become a pilot, I would not use Pilot Flight Academy in Norway. I would suggest OSM aviation academy or CAA, they seem to be smaller and actually take care of their students and who is able to start.
Hi... It is difficult, but must I feel my story must be told.
On Monday Pilot Flight “Academy” terminated my integrated ATPL studies, so now I am sitting here without anything and a large loan. I do not know what to do and just feel everything is hopeless. It's so painful, embarrassing and I also feel cheated.
I think it was difficult from the start and have been nervous throughout the studies, so I was never really calm and was afraid something like this could happen. I may never have been skilled enough to be a pilot, but I had hope and a dream that I might also become something. In general I found most things difficult, but I was working hard, so I the end I was pulling through. My first sitting was this summer and I passed exam in POF, mass and balance and VFR communications. I failed IFR communications, but that would have been very easy to pass next try. I had the test the same day as mass and balance, and focused to little on the small details.
The reason I have been terminated, is that I failed to score 75% on a final school test in General Navigation, so after four attempts they terminate you no matter how it goes. Each subject often consists of 3 tests. 1 and 2 which each contain a separate part of the material, and a final one which has everything like an exam. We were the first class to have it this way, previous classes have had tests 1,2 and 3, without final tests that are similar to an exam. Normal tests are 25 questions with 1/3 of course material. Ut the last final is the same as an exam, identical to exam mode in aviation exam software. I dont not think we have had any more time to prepare before this final test, and this way of having a tests was decided a little after we started. Maybe a good way to get higher success on the exams, but it makes it harder to pass the last one.
You need to read on last learned material and then also previous material, but we have not gotten any more time. This test is after the course is finished. General Navigation lasted 3weeks, 8-16 studies every day and one test a week. So if you fail one test, you really have to study because you instantly start with a new subject. The school regulations with the number of tests did not change either.
It is not an easy subject, a lot of theory, formulas and ways of calculating. Before an exam, you will have time to read extra on the subject, but the school test which is just as difficult, you take right after you finish the theory. If you do not pass it, then you have to read twice with the next subject, because a new subject starts right afterwards. New test every week... Some I have spoken to with generally generally high high scores in other subjects, passed just over 75% on this final test. At least 1/3 failed on the first try, so several had 2 and 3 tries on this one.
I never think the teacher was of any help either, as she was a young girl, who I felt really not was confident with the subject herself. 20 something year old and just a jobless ATPL student, and she said she did not really want to teach, but it was here best option at the moment. The quality of the teachers varies, from older people with good knowledge and good pedagogy, to some younger people who I feel almost only been put there after their own completed education. So learning the theory in this subject was difficult, and even more difficult when it came to solving EASA atpl questions in aviation exam.
The first attempt I think I had in August, the second try a week later. Then I had another month from the second test and last now last Friday. First try 68%, second try something with 50%, I think gave up a bit, third time 68% and fourth test 68%. Something like that.
After second attempt you need to have two extra hours with a instructor, before you can take it again. After the third attempt, there will be a conversation. It was a fairly long time in between tests, but at the same time you have other subjects with tests every week and school every day 8-16. So when you also think the other subjects are difficult, it is difficult to sit down and also study the other subjects at the same time. I could have been reading 24/7, but you also need breaks. So I somewhat was pushing the test in front of me, because thought I would have quite a good time before the last attempt. But then it was a final test in radio navigation, that took too much time and tries, but I passed that one. This module was first general navigation, air law, metrology and then RNav.
In the conversation they say that you only have 4 attempts etc, but I did not think it really was this way. I just did not take it seriously enough and thought in a expensive private“school”, you would get some kind of flexible help.
In my class there were two students who started for the second time, when they failed the tests and had fallen behind earlier. So I always thought that the "school" would help in some way if students failed. One of these student was really not cut for it, and failed several exams, but he also went on to module number two. Before everything stopped and he dropped out, but they might have gotten the money from module two out of him as well. The second person was with me on the fourth try og general navigation, where he got exactly 75%.
But he got a deal with the school to postpone exam in principle of flight, which was in the first module, so he will have the exam next year.
It's one of the more difficult subjects, but I passed the exam and finished it. But I thought that I would get a similar solution.
But this was due to covid they were telling me, as we had to have some of the teaching at home at the end of the studies. I think it was four students that got this postponed, until the end of the studies next year. They also say that they passed the last test within four attempts, so it can not be compared to me. But we had these tests at home, so you could easily cheat if you needed to.
General Navigation we were supposed to have in first module, but it was moved to second module due to covid. So if general navigation really would have been a problem, I would have been terminated then, and not now when I have paid 2/4 of the integrated ATPL. They also have no understanding of this, as this was a joint decision by us students with our representative they say. The only thing I heard was that it would be moved forward, because it would be too difficult to do at home and only have instructions through zoom (video).
There was also another student who was terminated now, but he had postponed general navigation and failed mass and balance on the previous exam.
I managed 3/4 in the the exam sitting, where I failed IFR communications, but that one I could easily pass next try. So the other three subjects in this module have have been difficult, but I think I had a good chance to pass these exams, especially with extra reading time, but I was not even allowed to try to take them.
They say is such a short time and that you must have completed all the subjects within 18 months, so you need to take everything without any delays. It have now been 3 months from the first exams and I could have finished 6/7 subjects out of 12. They are also struggling to get enough planes in the air, so there have been long delays for students. But they keep signing up partnerships with foreign airlines and taking inn more students every half year. So its not like we would start our flying right away.
The payment consists of 4 equal payments, so you actually pay way too much when you have the theory. So I feel that they will win much more financially by getting me out and also taking in bad students that fail. So now I have paid like 100$ per hour I have sat in a classroom with 25 students. Paid 2/4 and is not left with anything. Those who had to start again, paid about 4,000$ to take the theory module again, so then it goes without saying that the theory does not cost that much.
That arrangement with payment probably worked well before, when you flew and had theory at the same time. But now you start with theory. So it's a really good financially to fail students.
Since it is a private school I personally pay much money for it, and its also approved by the Norwegian state, when it comes to students loans.
I'm sitting here now, with a broken dream and a big loan. Just like what people warn about. So If you really still think you can become a pilot, I would not use Pilot Flight Academy in Norway. I would suggest OSM aviation academy or CAA, they seem to be smaller and actually take care of their students and who is able to start.
Question:
Were you made aware prior to signing any training contracts that you were to be held to a standard and upon failing this standard your training would be terminated?
Were you made aware prior to signing any training contracts that you were to be held to a standard and upon failing this standard your training would be terminated?
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22. Termination by the School
A. The School may terminate the Agreement if the School considers the Student not to be qualified or unsuitable for further education. Such dismissal from School will be factually justified.
B. If the Student does not pass a written School test, a progress check or the final progress check within the set number of attempts, the School can terminate the education of the Student and the Agreement.
C. All exams are provided by the N-CAA and the Student has to pass all exams within the time limits set out in the EASA Part FCL regulations. If the Student has not passed all the written exams within the time limit of 18 months from the first exam sitting in these regulations, the education of the Student and this Agreement is terminated.
D. If the Student has not completed the education within a period of 36 months from the commencement of the education, the education of the Student according to this Agreement is terminated.
Terms and conditions Norway 191216 7
A. The School may terminate the Agreement if the School considers the Student not to be qualified or unsuitable for further education. Such dismissal from School will be factually justified.
B. If the Student does not pass a written School test, a progress check or the final progress check within the set number of attempts, the School can terminate the education of the Student and the Agreement.
C. All exams are provided by the N-CAA and the Student has to pass all exams within the time limits set out in the EASA Part FCL regulations. If the Student has not passed all the written exams within the time limit of 18 months from the first exam sitting in these regulations, the education of the Student and this Agreement is terminated.
D. If the Student has not completed the education within a period of 36 months from the commencement of the education, the education of the Student according to this Agreement is terminated.
Terms and conditions Norway 191216 7
- E. The Student does not receive any financial refund if the education is terminated according to cf. this Agreement, Article 21 C or D.
- F. The Student does not receive a financial refund for part of a semester, but is not required to pay for any not yet commenced semester If:
- I. The School chooses to terminate the agreement according to cf. Terms and conditions, Article 21 A or B.
- II. The Student during his/her education is found unfit or unsuited for further education by the N-CAA.
de minimus non curat lex
Sorry to hear about your disappointment, and your financial loss.
Did the ATO have a selection process to assess whether you were regarded as a ‘training risk’ prior to you joining and paying the first instalment?
This should always be a strong indication as to whether you are likely to succeed without any issues.
Undertaking such intensive learning does require a proven track record in previous studies.
On reflection, were you academically up to the task?
This unfortunate experience will I hope concentrate the minds of wannabes.
It will act as a warning to others that the possibility exists that you have already passed the selection process before answering the first question in these C-19 days where employment will be non existent in the short to medium term.
You might even be able to negotiate your own financial payment scheme on a “pay as you go basis” (small credit balance is equitable) and remove the front end loading for the flying training.
Remember the golden oldies of “Due Diligence” & “Caveat Emptor”.
The contract is legally binding.
Modular training must be the popular choice just now for obvious reasons.
You may also consider obtaining legal advice as to the fairness of the contract and whether the ATO knowingly accepted you when the aptitude testing indicated that you didn’t have a “cat in hell’s chance” of succeeding.
In other words taking money under false pretences.
The facts will establish the true position.
Did the ATO have a selection process to assess whether you were regarded as a ‘training risk’ prior to you joining and paying the first instalment?
This should always be a strong indication as to whether you are likely to succeed without any issues.
Undertaking such intensive learning does require a proven track record in previous studies.
On reflection, were you academically up to the task?
This unfortunate experience will I hope concentrate the minds of wannabes.
It will act as a warning to others that the possibility exists that you have already passed the selection process before answering the first question in these C-19 days where employment will be non existent in the short to medium term.
You might even be able to negotiate your own financial payment scheme on a “pay as you go basis” (small credit balance is equitable) and remove the front end loading for the flying training.
Remember the golden oldies of “Due Diligence” & “Caveat Emptor”.
The contract is legally binding.
Modular training must be the popular choice just now for obvious reasons.
You may also consider obtaining legal advice as to the fairness of the contract and whether the ATO knowingly accepted you when the aptitude testing indicated that you didn’t have a “cat in hell’s chance” of succeeding.
In other words taking money under false pretences.
The facts will establish the true position.
Last edited by parkfell; 29th Oct 2020 at 11:12.
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Unfortunately not the first time I heard of flying schools doing this.
They capitalize on the dream of kids who, maybe rightfully so, assume that the school doesn’t shaft them as much as the signed contract allows them to.
It is a quite short sighted when a school terminates you in the theoretical phase. Sure you could argue that you can’t follow the learning curve, but it is not an indicator of your ability to follow the flying learning curve. Using myself as an example I hit a nearly 100% average on the atpls, but had the upmost trouble with simple vfr flying.
I am not aware of the extent of your finanical loss, but you could view leaving that school as an upside. I do not believe that a school with that kind of training mentality can bring you to your full airman potential.
Try to get some money back and don’t give up - you’re empty handed at the moment so it can never get worse
for others: let this be a warning, don’t put your funds in the hands of a flight school, go modular.
They capitalize on the dream of kids who, maybe rightfully so, assume that the school doesn’t shaft them as much as the signed contract allows them to.
It is a quite short sighted when a school terminates you in the theoretical phase. Sure you could argue that you can’t follow the learning curve, but it is not an indicator of your ability to follow the flying learning curve. Using myself as an example I hit a nearly 100% average on the atpls, but had the upmost trouble with simple vfr flying.
I am not aware of the extent of your finanical loss, but you could view leaving that school as an upside. I do not believe that a school with that kind of training mentality can bring you to your full airman potential.
Try to get some money back and don’t give up - you’re empty handed at the moment so it can never get worse
for others: let this be a warning, don’t put your funds in the hands of a flight school, go modular.
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They had some kind of online test, with mathematics, reaction and those kind of tasks. I got average to above average in all tasks. I have also done a paper aptitude test at another school, then I got around average. But I feel the Pilot Flight Academy test was much easier to the other aptitude tests.
I am not sure if I were academically cut for it, but I dont think the atpl theorectial studies would have been such a big problem, if it was more modular and time for home studies. My father is a engineer and my sister is a doctor, so I would think I am pretty average.
They had around 90 new students staring the fall, so they are for sure selling a dream. Its a business, not a school in my opinion. Always posting pictures of the “prettier” students and showing the people who have finished. Following instagram of accounts of students is always interesting, the very few students that actually got a job afterwards, are jobless now.
They for sure like to throw out phrases like “pilot from day one”, “airline ready”, «zero to hero»and pimp you out in uniforms.
I just hope people would think twice before joining a «school» like this, especially in these times. At the moment they should call it «jobless from day one» or something like that.
The students that started this fall, got a schedule with Principle of flight and GNAV 50/50 of 8-16 studies lasting 6week. So many were failing tests, so it would be interesting to know how many that will get terminated. I can really make bank setting up a super hard schedule and terminating them. Whats stopping them?
I can maybe get a PPL when the time is right. Then maybe consider ATPL year into the future, if it still want to go through the process and if the market have changed. When thinking about covid, its not the end of the world to stop now.
I am scheduled for a job interview next week and then maybe I can start a free education in my area sometime next fall. Life goes on. The market will take some time to get back anyways and new pilots will be in the end of the line.
I now live in Norway, which is a fairly high cost country. So working in a industry that is so international, you can probably get paid better for a much easier job. Wizz have just now started to fly here with foreign crews, so salaries will probably go even further down.
I am not sure if I were academically cut for it, but I dont think the atpl theorectial studies would have been such a big problem, if it was more modular and time for home studies. My father is a engineer and my sister is a doctor, so I would think I am pretty average.
They had around 90 new students staring the fall, so they are for sure selling a dream. Its a business, not a school in my opinion. Always posting pictures of the “prettier” students and showing the people who have finished. Following instagram of accounts of students is always interesting, the very few students that actually got a job afterwards, are jobless now.
They for sure like to throw out phrases like “pilot from day one”, “airline ready”, «zero to hero»and pimp you out in uniforms.
I just hope people would think twice before joining a «school» like this, especially in these times. At the moment they should call it «jobless from day one» or something like that.
The students that started this fall, got a schedule with Principle of flight and GNAV 50/50 of 8-16 studies lasting 6week. So many were failing tests, so it would be interesting to know how many that will get terminated. I can really make bank setting up a super hard schedule and terminating them. Whats stopping them?
I can maybe get a PPL when the time is right. Then maybe consider ATPL year into the future, if it still want to go through the process and if the market have changed. When thinking about covid, its not the end of the world to stop now.
I am scheduled for a job interview next week and then maybe I can start a free education in my area sometime next fall. Life goes on. The market will take some time to get back anyways and new pilots will be in the end of the line.
I now live in Norway, which is a fairly high cost country. So working in a industry that is so international, you can probably get paid better for a much easier job. Wizz have just now started to fly here with foreign crews, so salaries will probably go even further down.
Unfortunately not the first time I heard of flying schools doing this.
it spells it out pretty clearly, you don’t make the standard your trainings will be terminated.
Rightfully so.
Now this:
The Student does not receive any financial refund
Apart from some small withholding for administrative costs there should be no reason for not refunding unused monies.
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This isn’t the military, boy. If you can’t make the standards you might reasonably expect the whitetail flightschool that you’ve just payed €120.000 to train you upto standard, albeit at an additional cost.
Terminating a student after some failed ATPL exams and keeping all of the money, is what you call rightfully so? I would call it getting shafted and If anything it is a poor move from the school. It doesn’t show an educational dedication towards the student and makes me wonder what to expect further down the road.
I’d rather have a student fail and have a good grasp of the knowledge afterwards, than a first time passer who’s only able to reproduce the required knowledge. But I am not a flightschool and I do not require to maximize my profits.
And a last note: ATPL scores are a poor standard to uphold in the first place.
de minimus non curat lex
Once described to me by Sandy Thomson last century as “high volume, low grade material”.
What the selection process must achieve is the ability to determine that there is ”reasonable expectation or better” that a prospective customer will succeed.
There must be a strong correlation between the assessment scores & course progression, otherwise it is of little value.
A “training risk” might be someone who takes a couple of attempts to eventually pass the selection by “the skin of their teeth” and is likely not to achieve first time passes in all papers. That is not to say they won’t eventually succeed, but there will be considerable heartache along the way.
It difficult to reconcile your assessment scores with your disappointing outcome......?
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Yes its a very high volume, with a lot of small detail and questions that you need to see and understand. Following class theory studies and reading the books only gets you so far, doing questions from the bank is a must. I think I were progressing in most subjects, not perfect score from the start, but improving steadily. Passed POF, M and B, VFR communications first try. Failed IFR coms, but that one I just did not study for, so just doing a day of aviation exam would probably give me a pass.
The ones with the best scores to this point was always just sitting with their nose down in the computer and doing questions in aviation exam. I wanted to be polite and actually follow the course and listening to the teachers, but it was a mistake in my case.
Air law was fairly easy, a lot of small details, but I liked it. No problems with the exam mode in aviation exam and final test which is like a exam.
Metrology was also somewhat interesting, took more time to learn and was a little bit harder. After doing a lot of work in aviation exam, the small things were starting to be memorized.
I liked Rnav when it was about things you will actually use and such, the final school exam was harder though. But it was just about remembering all the small details from the different chapters.
So I had a good chance of at least passing these in the next sitting, gnav I am not sure.
Gnav I got some things opposite in crp5 calculations, charts when it comes to rhumb line and great circle stuff was hard to understand and polar navigation I really never got from the start.
The remaining subjects like AGK is the ones I think would have been the more interesting and fitting my previous knowledge. I like working on things, mechanically, electronics and such.
So yes I am disappointed with the outcome, having some more focused time on gnav and I think I could have finished the ATPL theory part.
The ones with the best scores to this point was always just sitting with their nose down in the computer and doing questions in aviation exam. I wanted to be polite and actually follow the course and listening to the teachers, but it was a mistake in my case.
Air law was fairly easy, a lot of small details, but I liked it. No problems with the exam mode in aviation exam and final test which is like a exam.
Metrology was also somewhat interesting, took more time to learn and was a little bit harder. After doing a lot of work in aviation exam, the small things were starting to be memorized.
I liked Rnav when it was about things you will actually use and such, the final school exam was harder though. But it was just about remembering all the small details from the different chapters.
So I had a good chance of at least passing these in the next sitting, gnav I am not sure.
Gnav I got some things opposite in crp5 calculations, charts when it comes to rhumb line and great circle stuff was hard to understand and polar navigation I really never got from the start.
The remaining subjects like AGK is the ones I think would have been the more interesting and fitting my previous knowledge. I like working on things, mechanically, electronics and such.
So yes I am disappointed with the outcome, having some more focused time on gnav and I think I could have finished the ATPL theory part.
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Sorry to hear about your first-hand experience with this nasty industry. Unfortunately, the mentioned school has lately developed into something that is similar to a ponzi scheme. Because of the student loan regulations in Norway they have for many years been one of few (read: the only) training provider on the market offering what schools would call "zero-hero" training. This has put the school in a situation where they have more students than they are able to handle and the treatment of the current students is nothing less than impressive (in the words most negative meaning!). A few years back the training program was flipped so all students would start with the theoretical training and only once finished with that you will be put in a queue for the flight training, whenever such spot would become available (.i.e.the first year you will not touch an aircraft). This has a few major effects for the students:
On top of this, there are many other issues, few students, if any, finish the program on time and few or none finish the program on budget. I could go on for days, but if anyone wants to become a pilot at the moment (taking COVID19 into account) there are many schools in Europe offering decent training for a fair price. This school is not one of them. Shortly they are likely to introduce a "flight instructor program" extending the duration from 2 to 3 years. This will not only be the longest flight instructor training program in the world, this could also mean that your flight instructor will be a part of that program or possible graduated a few days back. Sounds like you are getting what you are paying for?!
My final advice, if you are looking for pilot training - THINK TWICE - if you still decide to do it - THINK TWICE - before signing up with this training provider and last but not least, best of luck!
- Students are required to pay 80000 EUR upfront during the ATPL theoretical training. If the students are not released for flight training or terminated they will get zero refunded. That is right z-e-r-o. See what they did there? The more students they terminate, the more money they will get (as the theoretical training is cheap to provide compared to flight training). In those cases, the student pays 900% more than what the training would have costed elsewhere.
- Once the theory is complete you will have to wait for a slot to become available. Yes, that is correct.... Paying more than 80000 EUR does not mean you can start the flight training, as you can only do this when a slot becomes available. Unless you change to their new training base in the USA (not EASA approved as of now, but they are doing marketing as if it was), which in my opinion would be the most stupid decision ever. Why would someone pay for a training program in Norway (among the most expensive in the world) to get transferred to the USA still paying the Norwegian price?
- The ATPL theory is not easy. This is the theory required to be a commander of a commercial aircraft. In other words, this is the theoretical course required to be a captain of an Airbus A380. Completing the whole theoretical course with no flying experience or no flying skills to relate to is like a rock star starting to play guitar for the first time during a concert. It makes very little sense.
On top of this, there are many other issues, few students, if any, finish the program on time and few or none finish the program on budget. I could go on for days, but if anyone wants to become a pilot at the moment (taking COVID19 into account) there are many schools in Europe offering decent training for a fair price. This school is not one of them. Shortly they are likely to introduce a "flight instructor program" extending the duration from 2 to 3 years. This will not only be the longest flight instructor training program in the world, this could also mean that your flight instructor will be a part of that program or possible graduated a few days back. Sounds like you are getting what you are paying for?!
My final advice, if you are looking for pilot training - THINK TWICE - if you still decide to do it - THINK TWICE - before signing up with this training provider and last but not least, best of luck!
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Scam
Doing what? Holding students to a standard?
it spells it out pretty clearly, you don’t make the standard your trainings will be terminated.
Rightfully so.
it spells it out pretty clearly, you don’t make the standard your trainings will be terminated.
Rightfully so.
Last edited by OfCourse; 31st Oct 2020 at 10:07.
First - you wouldn’t call me boy to my face.
Second - Aviation schools do not do a student any favors by pushing them through regardless.
A “graduate” with multiple fails will not be successful in a future employment assessment.
Third - you missed my second point where I stated that i take a very dim view of schools not reimbursing funds.
Second - Aviation schools do not do a student any favors by pushing them through regardless.
A “graduate” with multiple fails will not be successful in a future employment assessment.
Third - you missed my second point where I stated that i take a very dim view of schools not reimbursing funds.
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Now I do have some experience with this "Cowboy outfit"
First one question, what books where they using to study? Where they still using Nordian?
Around 10 ago, I was supposed to start the ATPL distance learning course. What I discovered within 3 -4 weeks of commencing the course, was the Nordian books where really "crap" and not up to standard, specially if you compared to Oxford books and Bristol Ground School Distance learning course.
Then it was the course itself, the "homework" was written in so badly worded English, that it was impossible to understand the meaning of the text, questions or answers. The quality of the course was awful, and after approx 3-4 weeks, and after multiple complaints from my side, I wanted to cancel the course and get a refund, as I did not believe it was of sufficient standards.
They of course refused, kept my money, I believe it was around £5000 that time. I then decided to do it in the UK instead, and I then actually could understand the learning material as it was written in proper English, not some badly worded / broken English, that clearly was written by somebody who was incompetent in the English language.
Generally if a customer complains, I do believe I should have got some money refunded, as I did not complete the course with them, and I quit after relatively short time, due to the fact the schools standards was one of the worst I have ever seen. Shameful and disgraceful behavior I would say by the school, but they don't care as long as they have your money, that's all they care about, not about providing a good product.
So seems nothing has changed in many ways with them. Stealing peoples money again and again.
First one question, what books where they using to study? Where they still using Nordian?
Around 10 ago, I was supposed to start the ATPL distance learning course. What I discovered within 3 -4 weeks of commencing the course, was the Nordian books where really "crap" and not up to standard, specially if you compared to Oxford books and Bristol Ground School Distance learning course.
Then it was the course itself, the "homework" was written in so badly worded English, that it was impossible to understand the meaning of the text, questions or answers. The quality of the course was awful, and after approx 3-4 weeks, and after multiple complaints from my side, I wanted to cancel the course and get a refund, as I did not believe it was of sufficient standards.
They of course refused, kept my money, I believe it was around £5000 that time. I then decided to do it in the UK instead, and I then actually could understand the learning material as it was written in proper English, not some badly worded / broken English, that clearly was written by somebody who was incompetent in the English language.
Generally if a customer complains, I do believe I should have got some money refunded, as I did not complete the course with them, and I quit after relatively short time, due to the fact the schools standards was one of the worst I have ever seen. Shameful and disgraceful behavior I would say by the school, but they don't care as long as they have your money, that's all they care about, not about providing a good product.
So seems nothing has changed in many ways with them. Stealing peoples money again and again.
de minimus non curat lex
What is now being revealed by others, reinforces the general historical advice given to wannabes.
1. Visit all establishments on your shortlist.
2. Speak not only to the staff, but far more critically the customers (students) away from management.
The customers will be surprising honest and straightforward.
A good school will actively encourage you to mingle in a social setting away from staff & management.
They are comfortable with their product. Happy customers.
If the ‘DPRK tactics’ are used to frustrate this process, then avoid like the plague.
3. Avoid large up front payments for reasons stated. Negotiate reasonable terms with a small credit balance.
4. Learn from other peoples mistakes.
5. Golden oldies : DUE DILIGENCE & CAVEAT EMPTOR
1. Visit all establishments on your shortlist.
2. Speak not only to the staff, but far more critically the customers (students) away from management.
The customers will be surprising honest and straightforward.
A good school will actively encourage you to mingle in a social setting away from staff & management.
They are comfortable with their product. Happy customers.
If the ‘DPRK tactics’ are used to frustrate this process, then avoid like the plague.
3. Avoid large up front payments for reasons stated. Negotiate reasonable terms with a small credit balance.
4. Learn from other peoples mistakes.
5. Golden oldies : DUE DILIGENCE & CAVEAT EMPTOR
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Very good advice, the problem is naivety, as you don't expect such unprofessional outfit from a company in Norway.
I recall after what happen, they would even be posting sarcastic/snarky comments on PPRune Nordic forum. And it was surprisingly very little legal support you had to fight back after a complaint. I am pretty sure in the UK, if situation was similar you would at least have been refunded partially if not fully. You can rest assure that they care very little about customer feedback once they have your mind in their bank.
I was not planning to do their integrated program, but I did go and visit and look around. When I was there, there was no other students that I saw, so they could not have been very busy.
Now Norway in many ways has a very high quality on most things, however this school is not one of them.
And I strongly seem to recall they were using the Nordian ATPL books, which must be the worst ATPL books ever made.
However their own "course material" was written in English Level 1.
I recall after what happen, they would even be posting sarcastic/snarky comments on PPRune Nordic forum. And it was surprisingly very little legal support you had to fight back after a complaint. I am pretty sure in the UK, if situation was similar you would at least have been refunded partially if not fully. You can rest assure that they care very little about customer feedback once they have your mind in their bank.
I was not planning to do their integrated program, but I did go and visit and look around. When I was there, there was no other students that I saw, so they could not have been very busy.
Now Norway in many ways has a very high quality on most things, however this school is not one of them.
And I strongly seem to recall they were using the Nordian ATPL books, which must be the worst ATPL books ever made.
However their own "course material" was written in English Level 1.
OfCourse
Agree with some of what you’ve said, interesting perspective. The bit about ATPL theory, just wrong I’m afraid. With EFFORT it’s incredibly easy to pass them. You talk about A380 captains, totally irrelevant. That isn’t what they need to do that, what they need to do that is a 380 type rating and a command course pass.
OP has already said they couldn’t be bothered to put work in for IFR Comms so failed. Yku can do the entire IFR Comms bank in 30 minutes after a couple of goes so to not have done it 10 time’s before the exam is unforgivable given how important these exams are to your career. Lots of low level, basic content.
Agree with some of what you’ve said, interesting perspective. The bit about ATPL theory, just wrong I’m afraid. With EFFORT it’s incredibly easy to pass them. You talk about A380 captains, totally irrelevant. That isn’t what they need to do that, what they need to do that is a 380 type rating and a command course pass.
OP has already said they couldn’t be bothered to put work in for IFR Comms so failed. Yku can do the entire IFR Comms bank in 30 minutes after a couple of goes so to not have done it 10 time’s before the exam is unforgivable given how important these exams are to your career. Lots of low level, basic content.
“Schools” keeping money is an atrocious unethical practice.
However....if you have signed a training contract agreeing to these terms....you haven’t got a legal leg to stand on.
However....if you have signed a training contract agreeing to these terms....you haven’t got a legal leg to stand on.