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Length of Full Commercial Pilot Training?

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Length of Full Commercial Pilot Training?

Old 14th Aug 2020, 21:54
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VariablePitch

my dear, I am a Training Captain on B747-400 and -8.
you?

Banana Joe,

on a degree, not even 10 percent of all you see is relevant, but as in a good atpl, it creates a General level of knowledge, and broader understanding.
I got over 1400 hours of classroom training 20 years ago, and at a very high and intensive level. And guess what? It was not nearly enough to even begin to understand the complexity
of being an Airline Pilot. That will only come with experience, but it DID create the ability to absorb and understand that experience. Something whoefully lacking in new cadets.

and yes, I studied at a National Airlines Flight Academy.
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Old 14th Aug 2020, 22:24
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Your beef is with the Regulator and what they expect of the trainees for licence issue.
As you say you learn on the job, as you did. It is merely the starting point for further learning.

You don’t expect a newly qualified doctor after 5/6 years of medical school to have the theoretical knowledge of a hospital consultant. Nor should you expect a new (f)ATPL pilot have the experience of a TRE?

Nurture them, not slag them off.
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Old 14th Aug 2020, 22:26
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Your current position is irrelevant.
You fail to understand that things change in 20 years and sometimes not for the best. The current state of the exams is just a joke and the new question style does not address the issue.

14 exams whose questions are often written by people that have never put their feet in the flight deck of an aircraft, clearly with barely a level 4 English knowledge and questions that are so totally irrelevant that the only technique to pass the exams is to literally bash the question banks. And I passed the exams in 3 months with an average of 90%+. After I spent 6 months full-time studying the material as much as I could.

I enjoyed studying most of the subjects, but when I fly I the knowledge of how a transistor works is irrelevant to me, I am not allowed to touch anything if that piece of kit goes kaput down route. Knowing how many members are present in the ICAO council is also irrelevant. The stage of preparing the actual EASA exams was the most miserable thing I had to do. Especially Human Factors and its questions about a mother's birthday or a captain's yacht.

How about introducing one single written exam and add on that an oral like they do on the other side of the pond?
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 06:39
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I just joined PPrune last week so I cant reply more than 5 times a day. Anyway;
  1. I understood from Icelanta and Variable Pitch that it would take me [b]6-18 months to get my fATPL and another 12 months for my PPL/CPL and IR, and finally another 6 months for MCC. Which amounts to around 2 and 1/2 years.
  2. I also got that the ATPL Syllabus isn't hard at all and is completely useless, but its just a lot of information.
One last thing though, after getting all my licenses and my fATPL, I will obviously need to be type rated, won't that be done at the training facility of the airline I'm planning to work for?

Thanks a lot all!
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 07:00
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Originally Posted by parkfell
You don’t expect a newly qualified doctor after 5/6 years of medical school to have the theoretical knowledge of a hospital consultant. Nor should you expect a new (f)ATPL pilot have the experience of a TRE?
I think you will find the newly qualified doctor will have have far better theoretical knowledge than the hospital consultant.

I know someone who I am surpised hasn't piped up yet but he took 11 months for zero to the right seet of a regional turboprop.
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 08:46
  #26 (permalink)  

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As the UK FY 1 doctor has yet to pass the Fellowship exams FRCP and/or FRCS, I would be surprised if that was the case. There are some really mean multiple choice questions which puts the EASA exams akin to Boy Scouts Qs.
Do they have penalty marking as well?
We might soon hear the answer as a number of the medical profession peruse these threads as their sons/daughters aspire to commit aviation.
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 15:04
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Originally Posted by A1KSA
I understood from Icelanta and Variable Pitch that it would take me 6-18 months to get my fATPL and another 12 months for my PPL/CPL and IR, and finally another 6 months for MCC. Which amounts to around 2 and 1/2 years

Basically, No.

I'm talking about EASA only, and I will simplify things a bit, but basically a CPL and IR with ATPL theory and MCC is a fATPL.

PPL = private
CPL= commercial (what you need to be an FO)
ATPL = Airline transport pilot licence (you can only get one of these if you've already been an FO, it's what you need to be an airline Captain)
If you're modular, you'll get the licences in that order, the IR can be added to either PPL or a CPL and is included in an ATPL

To give you an idea of times:

First you need a class one medical: 1 day

Then you need a PPL: this takes anywhere from 3 weeks to 12 months or longer. 4-6 weeks is quite achievable, but not in the UK!

Once you have a PPL you can start studying for the ATPL exams. You'll have noticed he next level of licence is the CPL, so for the theory you're actually skipping the CPL exams and IR exams and going straight to the ATPL exams (because all exams can be credited downwards so it saves on having to do a lot of exams)
Full time: 6 months. Part time: anywhere up to 24 months. Ignore the 1400 hour comment, the guys obviously a troll! 😂 Bottom line is it'll take as long as it takes...

Any time after your PPL you can go flying to build hours, some people fly during their ATPLs, others wait it's up to you, you just need to end up with certain requirements (100 hours pic, night rating etc) full time somewhere sunny like Florida: 4-6 weeks

Oncec you meet the experience requirements you can start your CPL/IR training. This has to be done within 36 months of your ATPLs (or you'll have to do them again)
A lot of places offer a combined CPL/IR but you can do the modules separately, and if you do I would always recommend doing the IR first (it saves a fortune)
Typical times: 8 weeks

There are a few other things like UPRT that you'll need along the way, but generally the last thing would be an MCC or APS course 2-4 weeks

Now these are all seperate modules so you can't expect them to dovetail perfectly, but you can see that 12 months is entirely achievable without overlapping, and 18-24 months at a very leisurely pace. If you could fly once every other day during your ATPLs you'd knock that down considerably, as would being super prepared and getting lucky with the weather etc..
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 15:10
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Thanks Rudestuff,

I'm pretty sure I grasp the training now, my guess is that it will probably take me 12-14 months. Guess we will have to wait and see!



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Old 15th Aug 2020, 15:49
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​OP, what rudestuff has said. As he says ignore the 1400 hour stuff, as useful as the 70 year olds who hang around flying clubs shouting at PPL students for using the Garmin and not a sextant. All it’s done is totally confuse a fairly easy answer.

Street to airline = 18-24 months, all in, competed, job done
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 17:43
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And unprepared and unsuitable to be flying as second in command on any transport aircraft.
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 18:14
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Weren't we all? 😉
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 20:27
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So every single pilot flying commercially is unsuitable? Can’t think of many that did the 5 year masters degree in useless ATPL ground school knowledge that you seem to think we al do.

I genuinely can’t get my head around what you want me to do with these extra 700 hours?! I could learn to play the piano? Would that help?

I and all my course mates got nicely into the 90+% average on our ATPLs, on the syllabus set by the regulator.

As far as EASA is concerned we blitzed the exams no issue and this have fully understood the learning objectives. But you think that unless I sit and stare at a whiteboard for another 6 months full time I can’t be a competent pilot. Why only 6 months, why not 30 years? In fact why stop at 1,400 hours, surly it should be at least 20,000 hours of classroom study to be allowed to even do a PPL.

Its a shame you fly longhaul, can’t imagine having to sit and listen to your nonsense for 8+ hours
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 04:54
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If you are happy to just know the minimum required by the regulator, then fine. But some are eager to have superiour knowledge compared to the bare minimum required and prefer not to just learn the questionbank ( they should eliminate that) by heart.

staring at a whiteboard? No, but we had orals, internal exams ( fail and you are a gonner by the way) ,essays, had to explain topics to the whole promotion,... the current requirements are a sad joke.
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 10:26
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Icelanta

Times have changed oldtimer

At my old university (top 50 worldwide polytech, for context not to brag!) an average subject , e.g. Calculus, amounts to 5 ECTS = 140 hours study hours. Of those you'll get 7x3=21 hours of classroom instruction, which essentially is a condensed summary of the matter you should've already learned by yourself before coming to class. In other words 15% of the required study hours consists out of classroom instruction.

Distance learning / CBT follows or less the same principle and is maybe even better, since the university doesn't offer you detailed video lessons. Only books and 15% classroom instruction.
In summary, in the modern world it has become common for high complexity positions to be fulfilled by employees who are theoretically trained by a system comparable to distance learning.

However, ATPLs don't really compare to university. There is no requirement of deep understanding of the theories and principles governing the subjects, it is all about acknowledging simplified concepts and facts. There is no abductive/inductive/deductive reasoning required, no dissection or reproduction of any theory, no discussion nor research, none. It is just learning chewed and simplified stuff. ATPLs only require a fraction of the cognitive capabilities required for a uni degree (can only speak for engineering). If I had to compare ATPLs to anything out of the conventional school system, it would probably be trade school.

So please, why shouldn't cadet be able to follow distance learning?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying ATPLs are easy, I get that the amount of information in short period of time can be hard. However, I am fairly confident that there is no discussion on the content: If you compare the content of an ATPL course with a university course you'd have a good laugh.

Last edited by African_TrouserSnake; 16th Aug 2020 at 11:31.
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 11:09
  #35 (permalink)  

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As the late Sandy Thomson, an absolutely superb teacher
(Pre JAR jurisdiction last century) said “high class rubbish”.

My view is that it is ‘high volume, low grade’ material to absorb.
Provided you have adequate grey matter, you put in the time and effort,
it is mainly learn and churn.

The NAV paper does require a measure of understanding (fewest facts to learn) as does certain aspects of the MET. Keep asking the Question WHY.
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 11:16
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I fully agree
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 14:43
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VariablePitchP

As a line pilot you will regularly be required to compose and file (usually electronically, reports and data. As a training pilot, the frequency is increased.

Instead of staring at a whiteboard for six months, perhaps use the time to brush up on your grammar and spelling ?
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 15:02
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"Heh I can't debate him so I better correct him for his grammar, that'll teach him!"

How embarrassing, especially if you're a native speaker correcting a non-native speaker. You must be treat to fly with
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 16:06
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Can you elaborate? In 2 years I've been on the line I have never had to compose or file any report, unless you mean VORs and MORs but those don't happen often luckily.
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 17:18
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Yet another sad example of people hurling insults at each other and degrading the value of a thread - maybe its just entertainment for some of those participating?

Common sense suggests that the time it takes for someone to get qualified varies immensely from person to person. Several factors pay a role; aptitude, motor skills, situational awareness, focus, determination, effort, are just some. As pilots we all know colleagues and friends who managed to skip through those ATPL exams in 6 months and we also know others who took 5 times longer and everything in between. Passing the exams is a tick in the box for many, the knowledge they retain in often very small. Others love to delve deep into the subject, they want to really understand and pride themselves in remembering a large percentage after the exams have passed. Its somewhat a personal choice I believe.

The old timers (me being one of them) will opine "we had to know more because we actually had to write out the answers" and you will hear lots of comments bounded around such as "the modern students don't seem to know anything even after they just passed the exams"....and so on.

I see it both ways. Of course, as Icelanta says, you could easily spend thousands of study hours to get anywhere near knowing the 14 subjects in depth and being able to remember most of it, even if that was possible for the average human being to do so! On the other hand, jumping though the regulators hoop and passing with minimum study of the subject (learning the answers only) is now an industry accepted norm, just as it has been for years in the FAA system. The acid test comes later, what do the airlines accept? Rumor had it (last year) airlines were getting concerned about the level of knowledge exhibited by newly qualified cadets, I am not sure how airlines will look at this in the recovery phase after COVID. It might be a good idea to study more in depth and have exceptional theoretical knowledge to have an advantage at the interview when airlines start hiring again - I don't know the answer.

Bottom line, everyone is right, you could get qualified (fATPL from zero) in 10 months or you could take several years, its all about you, the abilities you were born with and the effort you can put in to make up for any weaknesses you might have, oh, and don't forget the quality of training, this can be a significant factor.
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