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UK issued EASA licence after 31st Dec 2020

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UK issued EASA licence after 31st Dec 2020

Old 25th Jul 2020, 10:06
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UK issued EASA licence after 31st Dec 2020

I have recently finshed my commercial training. My status is UK issued EASA CPL + ME/IR and EASA ATPL exams completed with UK CAA during 2019.

The guidance I am seeing is that come 1st Jan 2021 this will switch to UK licence and no longer be transferrable to another EASA state. I can however in the meantime convert to another EASA state and if need be convert back to UK for upto 2 years.

What I do not understand is how can EASA recognise my training and qualifications on 31/12/20 but not on 01/01/21? Surely if I completed all the training whilst UK was in EASA-land then I meet the EASA requirements for ever more.

What will actually happen after 2020 if for instance I get a job with a well known Irish carrier who insist on an IAA EASA licence to operate their EI reg a/c? Would EASA make me resit the ATPL exams and flight tests, even though I have already done them?? I know it is different if I was coming from Oz or HK and was required to jump through the hoops for the first time, but what is really silly is I would have already jumped through the hoops but because of politics, overnight, I am now no longer considered to be of the high standard of an EASA qualified pilot.

Another example - what happens to EASA pilots who go work for Qatar Airways and convert thier licence to Qatari but then at a later date decide to come back to Europe. Does EASA recognise this person had an EASA licence in the past and lets them convert back no questions? Or do you keep both licences at the same time?

I know the UK issued licence will be an ICAO one but does that have any clout when it comes to getting back to EASA?

Sorry if that I have made that really long winded but I just want to know what EASA will make former UK issued EASA licence holders do post 2020 to get an EASA licence back?

Cheers

Last edited by Magpie32; 25th Jul 2020 at 10:23.
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 12:17
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So is there going to be a new process put in place to transfer a now non-recognised former EASA licence to a new EASA licence? This is what I am getting at.
Is it a case of after 31/12/20 if I have not already transferred I will need to sit the 14 ATPL subjects again and MEIR and CPL courses in an EASA country? This sounds bizarre as I have alredy done those in 2019 and 2020 respectively...

I appreciate it is a different story for those who have never had an EASA issued licence, yes they will need to jump through all the hoops, but to have an EASA licence one day then not the next and be told that is it you have lost it unless you do it all again seems OTT.

What about about experienced ATPL holders who did all the training years ago now wanting to switch employer to KLM, Lufthansa etc, are they going to have to do exams again etc?

Last edited by Magpie32; 25th Jul 2020 at 13:20.
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 14:39
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Don’t know the answer but this is a prime example as to why people shouldn’t make decisions based on what they read on the side of a bus.
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 14:46
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The question really should be - why leave EASA in the first place? Last I checked Switzerland was not in the EU but issues EASA licences...
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 14:50
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Who knows? It all depends on what sort of deal (if any) comes out of the ongoing negotiations. In the meantime the only official uk guidance is on the CAA’s Brexit microsite accessed via the main CAA site.

There are some particularly relevant QnAs concerning SOLI on the commercial pilots section of the microsite.

Good luck
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 15:01
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Originally Posted by Magpie32 View Post
What about about experienced ATPL holders who did all the training years ago now wanting to switch employer to KLM, Lufthansa etc, are they going to have to do exams again etc?
Gaining the right to live and work in the EU should be the first stepping stone in this case.
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 18:39
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Why agonise about it? Just transfer your SOLI to an EASA state, sit back and watch. All will undoubtably become clear....
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 20:38
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So you think the best thing to do is transfer and know that you are covered either way as you can always transfer back to UK in 2021 onwards...

In the event a UK job came up this year whilst in the middle of transfer proceedings I assume you can cancel such request before it completes?
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 10:05
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The UK has stated that it will recognise EASA licences for at least 2 years after the end of transition and there is nothing to prevent you holding both an EASA and a UK national licence. Alex is correct, the sensible thing would be to change your state of licence issue to another EU member state to protect your EASA licence. It will not be necessary (or indeed possible) to change it back after the end of the transition period as you will be able to obtain an equivalent UK national licence on the basis of your original UK-issued EASA licence should the UK decide not to recognise EASA licences after 2023.

If you hold an EASA ATPL, there will never be a need to re-sit the theoretical knowledge exams, except in the case of an expired IR that has not been renewed for 7 years.

This, of course, all depends on Shapps and his GA buddies getting their way and taking the UK out of EASA, which is by no means certain. However, as Theholdingpoint says, even if we remain a member of EASA there is no guarantee that, as a non-EU citizen, you will retain the right to live and work elsewhere in the EU (except for the Republic of Ireland) after the end of this year.
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 10:59
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Originally Posted by BillieBob View Post
The UK has stated that it will recognise EASA licences for at least 2 years after the end of transition
Unfortunately this was clarified via a CAA ATO liaison group meeting the other day - the recognition of EASA licences will be for a maximum of 2 years or until the next revalidation of the ratings to be recognised. IE a non-UK issued EASA licence with ratings expiring shortly after the start of 2021 will lose recognition rather earlier than first understood. A few AOC companies with a mix of licences are already working on scheduling checks as close to December as practicable to give as long as possible post-change to work out the options!
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 11:42
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They really are a shower. Now information is released at a 'CAA ATO liason group meeting' of some sort (and certainly not one I was invited to) which is explicitly contrary to their published information and probably can't be relied on anyway. I'm waiting to see how they are going to test ATPL/CPL theory subjects next year with no discernible question banks, will they invite the Irish or someone to run EASA exams in the UK?
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 13:57
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Originally Posted by Theholdingpoint View Post
Gaining the right to live and work in the EU should be the first stepping stone in this case.
Yes, as you and BillieBob have pointed out unless you are committed to staying employed in the UK there's more to this than just having an EASA licence.

Last edited by wiggy; 26th Jul 2020 at 14:38.
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 14:40
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Originally Posted by Alex Whittingham View Post
They really are a shower.
Agreed, although with caveats about the good individuals still there! It turns out the information on UK acceptance of EASA licences was contained in a 2019 SI, therefore not promulgated on the CAA site/by them - this surprise became much of the focus of the meeting. SI 2019/645 being the riveting read it is, I think Schedule 3 is the relevant one.

Specifically para 2: "2.—(1) Subject to paragraph 3, any other licence, certificate or approval issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency or by the national competent authority of an EEA state which continues to be in force or effective on or after exit day by virtue of Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, is— (a) to continue to be in force or effective on and after exit day for the remainder of its validity period up to a maximum of 2 years (subject to any earlier suspension or cancellation by the CAA); and (b) to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA. (2) This paragraph applies only to documents issued under Regulation (EU) No 2018/1139 and EU implementing Regulations made under it."

The briefed interpretation of this was that validity period will apply to individual ratings as well as the licence.
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Old 28th Jul 2020, 00:57
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I'm in a similar boat here.
I have a UK issued PPL and Class 1, and ATPL exams with Austro.
My understanding in my case, if I'm not mistaken, is that after January 2021, you can hold a UK issued PPL alongside an EASA issued CPL, as a PPL must be issued by an ICAO state, and not necessarily an EASA state.

I would like to obtain an EASA CPL (IAA seems a recommended option). So my CPL SOLI would need to be Ireland.
It's my understanding however, that your licence and medical details need to be held by the same EASA state.

Would it be advised for me to therefore change my PPL SOLI to Ireland, transferring my medical in preparation for an Irish CPL, or should I just hang fire with a UK PPL safe in the knowledge I can obtain an EASA CPL on top of this??

If somebody could confirm I'm understanding things correctly, and give me an answer to the above question it would be greatly appreciated. I've spent a long time wading through info trying to make sense of it all!!
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 11:56
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Does anyone know what the Austro deadline is for receiving SOLI appications ahead of Brexit?

Edit: Just got a response from them, see below.

Due to an immense increase in transfer applications in the run up to Brexit, our processing times are currently significantly prolonged, the transfer process will therefor take several months.
Because of this immense processing time, we cannot be sure, to finish the process before Brexit.

If this would be the case, your UK license is a third country license from this point on and therefore no transfer is possible anymore. Your application would therefore have to be rejected from us, a third of the costs would be charged without a positive settlement. It would probably make sense to transfer your license to another EASA state, in which the processing can be done before Brexit.

Last edited by Magpie32; 29th Aug 2020 at 10:45.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 11:13
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In light of what I found out yesterday (28/09) from Austro does anyone know the current situation at IAA?

I phoned them but could only speak to reception as all personnel licencing department are working from home.

I know they state 04/09 on their website but they must surely be inundated with applications too which may mean at this stage there can be no guarantees either.

Working from home must only increase receipt time if someone is only going in every now and then to pick up the mail.

I am waiting on them phoning me back to clarify all this and maybe they will say there is an email address to submit the application to etc.

In the meantime I am exploring other, quieter EASA states to transfer to.

Note: For those who think I should have thought about this earlier and not left it to the last minute please bear in mind I was due to complete flight training back in Feb. Even after restart in the summer I had my paperwork at the CAA on 23/07 leaving plenty time to get the licence through and transfer. But as of today (29/08) I still have notreceived anything back from them which makes it close to the wire!

EDIT: Just received my licence however my SEP date is incorrect (they only gave me a 1 year rating - I thought it was 2?) and they changed my IR date which was already on my licence before CPL application!!!!
So it makes transferring to IAA irrelevant for me as it will be another few weeks for the CAA to correct.

Last edited by Magpie32; 29th Aug 2020 at 12:44.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 12:18
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What is your home country?
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 12:41
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Scotland, UK
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 03:06
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Originally Posted by Magpie32
Just received my licence however my SEP date is incorrect (they only gave me a 1 year rating - I thought it was 2?) and they changed my IR date which was already on my licence before CPL application!!!!
So it makes transferring to IAA irrelevant for me as it will be another few weeks for the CAA to correct.


You might be better off proceeding with the transfer process in spite of these mistakes. Like all competent authorities the IAA only requires that you have at least one valid aircraft rating or equivalent privileges and a valid medical certificate to begin the transfer [and one valid aircraft rating before the licence will be issued]. The UK CAA requires a (certified) copy of your licence to be submitted electronically with SRG2150. A certified copy of the licence will be required by the state to which the transfer will be made. NB: https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...nts-certified/

Certified copies of licences
You need to provide a copy of your licence for all licensing applications.

If you have had any ratings signed up on your licence, you will need to provide a certified copy of your licence.
If your licence is as issued by the CAA (there are no handwritten additions to your licence) you can send us a photocopy of your licence.


The IAA deadline of 4th September is for applicants needing licences transferred before the end of the year. Applications received by IAA after that deadline but before the end of the year should (!) still be processed albeit with the licence issued in early 2021. There doesn't seem to be a clear or uniform policy on whether a change of state of issue must be completed by the end of the year where the application has been. For example the Swedish Transport Agency, in contrast to Austro Control, will provide you with a temporary certificate conferring licence privileges if required whilst awaiting the conclusion of the transfer process. Clearly that provision is for operating Swedish aircraft after the end of the year, in other words, as I understand it Sweden will not pull the drawbridge up if the licence transfer process has not been completed in time. When I spoke with Kiwa in the Netherlands a fortnight ago I was told an application for a change of state from UK could be made up until the end of the year. In your position I would treat the matter with urgency and begin sending forms forthwith. That means do them today not next weekend. It can take two to three months for medical records to be transferred. The licence records will then be transferred in about a fortnight. Those transfers are done sequentially rather than concurrently. Any changes you make to your licence in the mean time, such as the variation or addition of a rating, would need to be notified to the new authority which can request an updated Standard Document 155 from the originating authority to verify the latest licence details. The fee payable to the new authority for the transfer of licensing records should (does in the case of IAA) include any variation or addition of a rating/certificate in case you want the new authority to make the licence endorsement. If endorsements are needed after the licence has been issued then additional fees will apply.

The basic fee for transferring a CPL to IAA is 450 EUR. See appendix to schedule 21 in the Irish Aviation Authority Fees Order, 2015 (link). I've found the personnel licensing office at IAA to be extremely helpful however its policy on examiner endorsements deserves considering. Most examiners cannot endorse an IAA licence to renew an expired rating or certificate. Those that can must be both operating within an IAA ATO and specifically approved by IAA. In all other cases the IAA makes the endorsement and reissues the licence, levying a fee in the process. This policy is explained in IAA Personnel Licensing Advisory Memorandum (PLAM) 017 (link, pdf link). Similar details for other MSs can be found in the EASA Examiner Differences Document at https://www.easa.europa.eu/ by navigating to EASA Pro > Domains > Aircrew & Medical > Flight Crew Licensing—then see downloads at the bottom.

Licence and medical records transfer fees are broadly similar across the MSs. Sweden levies an annual fee (årsavgift) of 900 SEK on CPL holders. See pp 30–31 in the consolidated version of TSFS 2016:105 (link, pdf link), incorporating amendment TSFS 2019:125. The medical records transfer fee is 2 200 SEK (~ 190 GBP). The flight crew licensing records transfer fee is 400 SEK for a PPL or 2 200 SEK for a CPL/ATPL. The personnel licensing office takes calls Mon–Wed 09:00–11:00 (local) but responds quickly to email. The forms for transferring to Sweden are L-1835 for licensing records (link) and L-1873 for medical records (link). Both can be filed electronically. All the Nordic states accept forms by email.

Denmark has no annual fee but charges 1 560 DKK (~ 190 GBP) for the transfer of medical records and bills the transfer of licence records at a rate of 780 DKK/hour. Expect two hours. See tables 1A, 4M, and 4E for fee details in the annex to TBST's Executive Order nr 1335 (link). See application to change the competent authority to Denmark (link, pdf link) and the application for the transfer of medical records between medical sections of licensing authorities (link, pdf link). Both can be filed electronically. Note that examiners approved by other than Denmark cannot endorse a Danish licence in respect of a rating that has expired by more than three years, but this is hardly a deciding factor for most.

Can't comment on Norway other than to note that the licence records transfer fee is 3 280 NOK (~ 280 GBP). See BSL (bestemmelser for sivil luftfart) A 1-2, § 34(2) (link). The fee for transferring the medical records appears to be 1 590 NOK, § 42 (3)(f). A consolidated application form and instructions are available in English here (link).

The Icelandic Transport Authority (Samgöngustofa) publishes flight crew licensing forms here (link). Use form LF-355 application for change of competent authority (pdf link) and form LF-355b application form for the transfer of medical records (pdf link). From the main fees (gjaldskrar) page (link) see gjaldskrá Samgöngustofu nr. 338/2015 then select the link next to the PDF icon, or try here (pdf link). The licence and medical transfer fees appear to be items 1.1.43 and 1.1.70 levied at 25 010 ISK (~ 140 GBP) and 2 670 ISK respectively, although the additional rate of 10 210 ISK/hour at item 1.1.71 might apply.

The licence transfer fee for Finland appears to be 400 EUR from point 2.3.1 in the decree on transport service fees no 472/2020 (link, pdf link). The application form appears to be a generic one (link).

Austria charges broadly similar transfer fees: see TP (Tarifposten) 7 in the third column of the fees schedule (link, pdf link). Kiwa in the Netherlands charges 660-something EUR and offers an expedited processing service for an additional 25 per cent (link).

The personnel licensing offices in all of these states communicate perfectly well in English. Most rank in the top ten countries worldwide in the Corruption Perceptions Index (link). Remember to fill in the UK CAA forms also at https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...licence-issue/ Good luck!

Last edited by selfin; 14th Dec 2020 at 10:45.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 07:18
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Can anybody explain how all of this will benefit the UK? Switzerland and Norway are EASA members but not in the EU. So what is the logic in setting up a parallel organization?
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