Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.

Future Pilots

Old 30th Apr 2020, 07:59
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shamrock_f22 View Post
Training to become a pilot has made little sense at the best of times but especially now. It was always my dream and until very recently I gave it everything I had. I was utterly devastated to be rejected by AL on their cadet programme at the last hurdle... Then covid19 happened just a few weeks later.

Other than following my dream, a career as an airline pilot still didn't make much sense but now I thank my lucky stars I didn't get through and give everything up only for this to happen.

What do I have to fall back on? A decent career as an Engineer and now sales person. I've made €60k in commission alone in the last year which is more than some pilots make full stop from what I've heard.

Honestly I think you should go elsewhere for now. The airlines treat people like dirt, they're incredibly arrogant, the jobs won't be worth the crap salary they offer new starters and you can enjoy a decent lifestyle until it all picks up again in the future.
Thanks for your very useful piece of advice.
I, like many on these forum, have been flying for 21 years, military and commercial from gliders to jets. Thankfully you finally explained how to go about the situation we’re in.
bringbackthe80s is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:19
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry a couple of points I forgot to add - airline and training centre recruitment teams love to give candidates a hard time and come up with all manner of questions that make you feel bad for not having given your blood, sweat, DNA, and family life savings in the pursuit of becoming a pilot.

Human Remains in particular love to grill people with banal questions like "well if you were really that dedicated why have you only had 4 flying lessons since x date?".

Just remember your circumstances are often unique to you. Follow what's right for you.

I had to explain to that particular individual that I came from a working class family who had nothing in an environment where we were encouraged to work as plumbers or go on the dole by school (nothing wrong with being a plumber btw!). Every time I saved up, something would happen - 9/11 (I'm an Asian Muslim from the UK), local airport being shut down, paying my way through uni, looking after family, moving country, getting married etc. On top of that I worked 70-90 hour weeks so a second job to pay for lessons wasn't feasible. Life happened and I wouldn't have changed a thing - doesn't mean I didn't want to be a pilot still and found other ways to keep current with what was going out. It just always felt out of reach.

The pilot sat in the interview just smiled knowingly and said "That's exactly the journey I went through"

I'm just highlighting the above because there will always be people who will tell you it's all or nothing. Now or never. That's not true. Follow what's right for you but always make sure you have an alternative path to follow if for whatever reason things don't work out or you just find its not right for you
shamrock_f22 is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 09:05
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by oceancrosser View Post
A young man (21) in my family is doing his PPL. He asked my advise for continuing towards CPL, and I told him not for now. Go to University, get a 3 year degree, then you have something to fall back on. Check back on flying after those 3 years.
Depends which degree, and what you do with it as to if it's a backup. My last job was for my local council in their IT section and what got it wasn't my degree, but acing their aptitude test (and spotting the error in it!) and that they knew me from my previous employer who had seen fit to make me redundant just as they started major work for this customer. Go figure. Certainly having a degree doesn't usually guarantee you can walk into a job.
cats_five is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 11:18
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Europe
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shamrock_f22 View Post
Training to become a pilot has made little sense at the best of times but especially now. It was always my dream and until very recently I gave it everything I had. I was utterly devastated to be rejected by AL on their cadet programme at the last hurdle... Then covid19 happened just a few weeks later.

Other than following my dream, a career as an airline pilot still didn't make much sense but now I thank my lucky stars I didn't get through and give everything up only for this to happen.

What do I have to fall back on? A decent career as an Engineer and now sales person. I've made €60k in commission alone in the last year which is more than some pilots make full stop from what I've heard.

Honestly I think you should go elsewhere for now. The airlines treat people like dirt, they're incredibly arrogant, the jobs won't be worth the crap salary they offer new starters and you can enjoy a decent lifestyle until it all picks up again in the future.

Back in 2005 I went to AL to find out some information on their cadet programme. Bumped into one of their interviewers instead. He told me if I really wanted to fly then I would find a way and he was right. Best advice I ever got. No salary will ever match that feeling as you takeoff. I've been trying to make ends meet since 2005 and still wouldn't trade it in for all the commission in the world.
FL Tree6 is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 12:20
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MichaelOLearyGenius View Post
What’s best? Integrated or modular?
Whatever suits your budget and timescales.
shamrock_f22 is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 13:12
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smile Future Pilots

I think anyone even considering a Professional Pilot career for the next 10years must need a brain transplant!

1000;s of experienced Capts and F/Os on the market with absolutely zero prospects of ever getting back in the Flt deck..that is the reality we face now.

I was lucky and retired from aviation as a A310 Cpt. and now run a business with my own Seneca aircraft. My son is a CPL/IR (FATPL-£100k in debt to me) and I advised him to look at the following options:

1. Fly pleasure flights from Lytham st. Annes(if he can get a job)

2. Drive a truck at Tesco deliveries.

3. Become a window cleaner.

He opted for the latter and now makes £1500 pw 6 day week with zero pressure and a quality lifestyle.

Not being negative, but there are many ways to make an honest living with a quality lifestyle beyond aviation. Just accept the Flt deck was just a dream.

Hope we all survive the present lockdown!....... .



no more nite flights is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 13:22
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Callsign Bro View Post
what does your gut instinct tell you about what's coming in the future?
It's dire. It's terrible.

Last edited by pilotmike; 18th May 2020 at 16:36.
pilotmike is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 14:50
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'ts all very sad, my heart goes out to everyone..
I qualified in 2002 right in the middle of another notorious downturn, I kept positive though and Instructed for a couple of years, hoping things would improve, but my age was against me I was 38 at the time.
Sometimes you just have to bow to the inevitable and move on, or at the very least have a plan "B". A lot of the guys who qualified at the same time as me refused to accept that it just may not happen for them, and wasted years when they could have been re-training for something else.
Stay positive but be realistic.


Good luck all
sbetts is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 15:14
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Don't touch aviation with a barge pole. Thankfully my son listened when we advised him to go to University before looking at some sort of cadet scheme.
Even when this mess blows over the unscrupulous accountants egged on by even more unscrupulous management will decimate terms and conditions to remove any 'benefit' from an already tiring and stressful job.

Go become a plumber.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 15:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
you'll find that most people actually aren't struggling right now. The people on our estate, none of whom are pilots or involved in aviation in any way, are currently working from home but apart from that it is very much business as usual. It's business as usual for accountants, lawyers etc., in other words middle class professionals who take at least one relatively expensive family holiday a year. It's also business as usual, if that's the way to put it, for the well off retirees who are still planning to head to the Canaries this winter.
Dear God. And there lies the problem. The ''I am alright Jack'' from the top of the hill as thousands upon thousands suffer in abject misery and poverty. 1.6 billion jobs globally lost and the individuals left with nothing to eat and no earning ability. Suggest you have a look at Possil, Maryhill, Liverpool, London, open your eyes and see what is happening with the vast majority who have nothing.

To all in aviation I wish all the very best and seek ways for us all to navigate through this mess.

Round of applause for the well off retirees who will have nothing if this all goes to plan. (Except a Starbucks take away)
maxred is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 18:54
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: SexSuss
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm View Post
Don't touch aviation with a barge pole. Thankfully my son listened when we advised him to go to University before looking at some sort of cadet scheme.
Even when this mess blows over the unscrupulous accountants egged on by even more unscrupulous management will decimate terms and conditions to remove any 'benefit' from an already tiring and stressful job.

Go become a plumber.

Future Payscales will have 787 captains on £35k a year tops and first officers on £15k tops. It'll be a close call between becoming a pilot or an Uber driver (but then again, Uber probably won't survive this either). Plumber. Electrician, Chippy, Fruit Picker OR a PHD in AI, Astrophysics or Life Sciences.

Last edited by Antichristpilot; 30th Apr 2020 at 21:26.
Antichristpilot is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 19:18
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To the original poster, you initial post is non-sense. Although I think some people are being over pessimistic, I do think we will struggle to get back to 80-90 % of the flight demand we had in 2019. Probably around 2-3 years. We will never recover that extra 10-20 %, simply because some businesses have realized that skype/teams/zoom does the job too for meetings, and for free.

Once these 2-3-4 years maybe are gone, you will be behind many other wannabees, and many qualified pilots who were sadly fired during this crisis.

Originally Posted by shamrock_f22 View Post
Training to become a pilot has made little sense at the best of times but especially now. It was always my dream and until very recently I gave it everything I had. I was utterly devastated to be rejected by AL on their cadet programme at the last hurdle... Then covid19 happened just a few weeks later.

Other than following my dream, a career as an airline pilot still didn't make much sense but now I thank my lucky stars I didn't get through and give everything up only for this to happen.

What do I have to fall back on? A decent career as an Engineer and now sales person. I've made €60k in commission alone in the last year which is more than some pilots make full stop from what I've heard.

Honestly I think you should go elsewhere for now. The airlines treat people like dirt, they're incredibly arrogant, the jobs won't be worth the crap salary they offer new starters and you can enjoy a decent lifestyle until it all picks up again in the future.
So basically you were unsuccessful, and now you're blaming the airlines because they play people like dirt? Well seeing your post, I am not very surprised.

Most pilots in decent companies get more than 60.000/year in year 1, probably 100 % in year 3-4. I made around 75.000 in year 2 in a very well known British Airline, which is not amongst us any longer. Obviously, that's RHS in the very first years.

But even if pilots made less than you, you will always look up to the sky and think "I never made it". Pilots will never look down and say "shXXXt, I lost my comission".

Sorry to be such an idiot, but it is very oportunistic to come around amid the worst crisis in this century and say that an aviation career never made much sense. I do not think every pilot thinks that. It is hard, schedules are harsh, but hey! it is the best job by far. I think we pilots know we are extremely lucky and feel very proud of what we do. And to be honest, we have been pretty well paid in decent airlines.

There are only 3 downsides of this career:
- Getting into it (and I come from a very modest family too).
- Crisis hit aviation very hard (like now)
- Not the best career for your health, but probably compensated by many other factors.

Now you can go to the traders professional forums and post there how much you love your job. Being a pilot is shXXXt, that is why you are still here.
vikdream is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 20:13
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Nope that's not why I'm blaming the airlines. There's a huge cultural issue within the airline industry and generations of successive pilots have done nothing to change it because they made it so sure look, why rock the boat now.

I don't have any kind of chip on my shoulder about it. Of course I'll always look up longingly at the job I thought I wanted to do since before I could even speak. The point I was making to OP was that there's plenty of other things to do in the meantime because you just don't know what's around the corner. Find your own way.

And I used the money as an example because the financial struggle is a huge issue and always has been. Some people are motivated by the money and perceive that pilots are rolling in it. Again the point I was making was that with my base + commission I make more than most captains in long haul do much earlier on in my career and I'm incredibly lucky for that. It's one way OP could end up funding their training if they needed to.

​​​​​​
shamrock_f22 is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 20:24
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FL Tree6 View Post
Back in 2005 I went to AL to find out some information on their cadet programme. Bumped into one of their interviewers instead. He told me if I really wanted to fly then I would find a way and he was right. Best advice I ever got. No salary will ever match that feeling as you takeoff. I've been trying to make ends meet since 2005 and still wouldn't trade it in for all the commission in the world.
Yeah I totally understand. My personal circumstances are a little different to before and there's other things keeping me from pursuing it now.
​​​​​​
shamrock_f22 is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 20:58
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To add to my earlier point, I am not living in an aviation bubble.
My neighbours and friends are doctors, lawyers, accountants, landscapers and sales people. Also some retired couples sitting on good investments.
ALL of them are worried, and 2 of my friends who retired around 8 years ago (not pilots) and who were living off investments are both considering going back to work and/or selling their homes, such has been the financial hit.
Somebody May be living in a bubble but it isn’t me - everyone is affected by this, and tourism will take a huge hit.
Baldeep Inminj is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 23:52
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From an earlier post:
Originally Posted by shamrock_f22 View Post
I've made €60k in commission alone in the last year which is more than some pilots make full stop from what I've heard. .​​​​​​
followed by:
Originally Posted by shamrock_f22 View Post
Some people are motivated by the money and perceive that pilots are rolling in it. Again the point I was making was that with my base + commission I make more than most captains in long haul do much earlier on in my career​​​​​​
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's clearly time for a reality check. I don't know what exactly you heard, but long haul captains make a heap more than you,.. unless your base pay is over £150k, which seems most unlikely.

At least, they did until a month or 2 ago - which turns us full circle back to the very point of this thread!
pilotmike is offline  
Old 1st May 2020, 06:13
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am an LCC tagged cadet due to start my pay-to-fly integrated training commencing at the end of this year. The school has told me that the airline has not informed them of any intention to void the contracts of this cadet intake. I can imagine a couple of reasons for this, the main one being that the two years training means we wouldn't be taking a salary until around 2023, and that given the type rating will be bonded, we are a source of revenue and return on investment in simulators etc. Equally one would expect that cadets would be the first to go given what the the job market for FOs may look like in 2023 and a potential abundance of desperate experienced pilots, so I can't quite understand why I haven't been cast off, and of course I would be devastated to recieve such news.
halbeir is offline  
Old 1st May 2020, 07:26
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: sunshine
Age: 68
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I dont think I fit in the “Future Pilots” category as I retired in Mar 2018 so more like “ Past Pilots”. There are pilots of all hues. Some of them are there for the Love of flying, others for the money and the glamour. I have been through the Indian Air Force and have flown everything from Gliders to Fighter jets. In 1993 took premature retirement and after obtaining ATPL joined civil Aviation . Started with cargo Airlines and flew later with domestic Airlines in India and flew for Oman Air for the last nine years. Flying is a profession like none other . It is demanding and challenging and that is why it is so exhilarating and satisfying! Its not a job per se
Its profession ,hobby ,pleasure all rolled into one. If some young man is attracted to it for money and glamour, I think it will take a bit of time .It took about 4 years after 9/11 when the damage was localised . Now when the pandemic is worldwide the recovery may take a lot longer. The business traveller has also learnt that you can achieve better efficiency by video conferencing. We can all expect a new Normal. Cargo Airlines will continue to be in demand and cruise ships may actually pick up because they can have better facilities in terms of medical and social distancing . Wish you luck and in the end too much planning some times doesn't necessarily mean a good decision. As per aerodynamic Laws , a bumble bee should not be flying but the bumble bee does not know aerodynamics so it flies anyway! Cheers !
jpsingh is offline  
Old 1st May 2020, 08:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Reading
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cadet pilot jobs

I am a future cadet and i am yet to start my training, having indefinitely pulled the plug on starting training due to this overwhelming crisis. I don't believe for one second the people on this forum who say that cadet pilots will have a wait of 10 years after graduating flight school in order to find a job as nobody can possibly place a timeframe on this. However in my personal situation I am going to wait at least a year until I even think about starting flight training dependent on how I vision the pilot job market in 2 years time from that point. For those in training i would recommended finishing your training to the highest of your ability regardless of time taken as the higher results you get would help you to stand out from the crowd in a few years when we have a cadet pilot job market again. For those on here talking about starting training now is simply dazzling when the extent of the damage to the industry is not known. My main message to aspiring pilots is don't give up hope but just to please realise the extent of the crisis and take the foot off the gas a little in order to analyse the industry in the coming months/years as I wouldn't recommend starting training until we see significant signs of recovery that suggest there will be cadet pilot jobs 2 years after that point.
zulucharlie is offline  
Old 1st May 2020, 17:19
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pilotmike View Post
From an earlier post:

followed by:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's clearly time for a reality check. I don't know what exactly you heard, but long haul captains make a heap more than you,.. unless your base pay is over £150k, which seems most unlikely.

At least, they did until a month or 2 ago - which turns us full circle back to the very point of this thread!
Not sure what bubble you think you've burst - and not sure what qualifies you to think you know how much I earn!

There's plenty of current and former pilots who talk about their pay on the website and those who are most vocal are the ones who have added their 2p to wannabe and future trainee forums. Go have your reality check discussion with them.

​​​​
shamrock_f22 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.