Possible refund of training fees and further advice.
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Possible refund of training fees and further advice.
Slightly tongue in cheek but what do we think the chances are of getting a refund for the incompleted part of a tagged scheme from one of the larger training schools. I know of someone who has completed the TKI element of a tagged scheme and has completed PT1 of the flight training. This has taken about one year and there are only a couple of payments left for the complete course so this has cost in excess of £100K. There have been delays in the flight training and despite being very helpful, this school has now sent the trainee back home. C-19 has now changed the landscape completely and in particular with job prospects for a low time pilot - hence the question. I wonder whether a refund of the difference in training received against training paid for would be forthcoming if asked for and whether it is worth carrying on with any training is such a good idea.
de minimus non curat lex
Slightly tongue in cheek but what do we think the chances are of getting a refund for the incompleted part of a tagged scheme from one of the larger training schools. I know of someone who has completed the TKI element of a tagged scheme and has completed PT1 of the flight training. This has taken about one year and there are only a couple of payments left for the complete course so this has cost in excess of £100K. There have been delays in the flight training and despite being very helpful, this school has now sent the trainee back home. C-19 has now changed the landscape completely and in particular with job prospects for a low time pilot - hence the question. I wonder whether a refund of the difference in training received against training paid for would be forthcoming if asked for and whether it is worth carrying on with any training is such a good idea.
That will set out just what the financial obligations are, what the breakpoints and processes are for obtaining a refund. Is there a clause dealing with FORCE MAJEURE ?
If you are a student member of BALPA then approach them; otherwise solicitors with a knowledge of aviation.
I suspect suggestions there will be many, as a number L3 Harris customers are dissatisfied with the “slow” training rate.
Non disclosure agreements are clearly a way for ATO to avoid publicity when settlements are agreed.
As for carrying on ~ that is entirely a personal choice and really depends, inter alia, how far down the track you have got.
READ THE CONTRACT
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Quite often in aviation you'll see the phrase RTFM when needing to look into something in more detail.
I use this analogy now- Read the contract and what has been signed.
Then come back and debate where you can go next.
Like many of us pilots in Furlough, there are parts of job contracts that you think would never be used, that are being actioned legally. As other posts say, this will be the time when these almost unthinkable clauses get used by the ATOs to wriggle out.
Good luck.
I use this analogy now- Read the contract and what has been signed.
Then come back and debate where you can go next.
Like many of us pilots in Furlough, there are parts of job contracts that you think would never be used, that are being actioned legally. As other posts say, this will be the time when these almost unthinkable clauses get used by the ATOs to wriggle out.
Good luck.
de minimus non curat lex
At the end of the day, ATOs are offering a service be it Integrated or Modular.
No one is compelled to go down the Integrated route. It is more expensive, probably quicker.
You sign a contract, hand over the loot in stages, front end loaded to help with their cash flow. No one compels you to sign it. Two willing parties who do so due to the benefits derived by doing so.
The magic words for the ‘buyer’ are DUE DILIGENCE and CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Do not sign unless you wish to be legally bound.
Some refer to the larger schools as “puppy farms”; some say you are “just a number”; the “sausage factory” turning out the product.
If everything stays on track, everyone is happy. It can turn sour when delays occur and targets are not met for what ever reason.
As for M’learned friends, this might well turn out to be a ‘target rich environment’
No one is compelled to go down the Integrated route. It is more expensive, probably quicker.
You sign a contract, hand over the loot in stages, front end loaded to help with their cash flow. No one compels you to sign it. Two willing parties who do so due to the benefits derived by doing so.
The magic words for the ‘buyer’ are DUE DILIGENCE and CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Do not sign unless you wish to be legally bound.
Some refer to the larger schools as “puppy farms”; some say you are “just a number”; the “sausage factory” turning out the product.
If everything stays on track, everyone is happy. It can turn sour when delays occur and targets are not met for what ever reason.
As for M’learned friends, this might well turn out to be a ‘target rich environment’
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At the end of the day, ATOs are offering a service be it Integrated or Modular.
No one is compelled to go down the Integrated route. It is more expensive, probably quicker.
You sign a contract, hand over the loot in stages, front end loaded to help with their cash flow. No one compels you to sign it. Two willing parties who do so due to the benefits derived by doing so.
The magic words for the ‘buyer’ are DUE DILIGENCE and CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Do not sign unless you wish to be legally bound.
Some refer to the larger schools as “puppy farms”; some say you are “just a number”; the “sausage factory” turning out the product.
If everything stays on track, everyone is happy. It can turn sour when delays occur and targets are not met for what ever reason.
As for M’learned friends, this might well turn out to be a ‘target rich environment’
No one is compelled to go down the Integrated route. It is more expensive, probably quicker.
You sign a contract, hand over the loot in stages, front end loaded to help with their cash flow. No one compels you to sign it. Two willing parties who do so due to the benefits derived by doing so.
The magic words for the ‘buyer’ are DUE DILIGENCE and CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Do not sign unless you wish to be legally bound.
Some refer to the larger schools as “puppy farms”; some say you are “just a number”; the “sausage factory” turning out the product.
If everything stays on track, everyone is happy. It can turn sour when delays occur and targets are not met for what ever reason.
As for M’learned friends, this might well turn out to be a ‘target rich environment’
These are not small businesses any more. Like Ryanair themselves. The large ATO's need to be held accountable for the way that they market. Individuals legally can expect accurate information from the School without having to complete some kind of due diligence. This kind of statement in Europe or the US is ridiculous.
de minimus non curat lex
What exactly do you think they say which purports to be “accurate information” to tempt the perspective junior birdmen?
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Do FTO’s actually mention the phrase “pilot shortage” though?
From what I’ve seen all they seem to promote is “Boeing / Airbus predict the world will need x amount of pilots over the next x amount of years”
It’s not really misleading if it’s only a prediction
From what I’ve seen all they seem to promote is “Boeing / Airbus predict the world will need x amount of pilots over the next x amount of years”
It’s not really misleading if it’s only a prediction
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With the uncertainty as to how C-19 will develop before vaccine intervention occurs sometime in the future, how exactly does Kungfu panda expect the marketing dept will persuade customers to sign on the dotted line?
What exactly do you think they say which purports to be “accurate information” to tempt the perspective junior birdmen?
What exactly do you think they say which purports to be “accurate information” to tempt the perspective junior birdmen?
Over the last 30 years, 4 events have caused years of Pilot glut. The only thing that FTO's can guarantee is the possibility of a good career. Not the probability. If they have delivered for you personally then you're lucky.
They should just exist as training organisations without all of this false advertising. Like they did in the old days.
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With the uncertainty as to how C-19 will develop before vaccine intervention occurs sometime in the future, how exactly does Kungfu panda expect the marketing dept will persuade customers to sign on the dotted line?
What exactly do you think they say which purports to be “accurate information” to tempt the perspective junior birdmen?
What exactly do you think they say which purports to be “accurate information” to tempt the perspective junior birdmen?
So how about spending a five figure sum (significant discount) they might say and start after the unlock of lockdown. Pay as you fly, and not loaded up front. Realise that no jobs will appear in 2021, but offer continuation training to keep topped up. Free IR revalidation with work up training after 12 months of initial & 2 MCC sessions.
Just a few ideas. Get your negotiation skills sharp.
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They need to be sued. Their marketing doesn't correspond to historical reality. It should be tested in court. Especially now. I think that we're in a 1990 situation for young Pilots where there were no jobs again for 6 years. The jobs finally arrived with the development of the LCC's.
de minimus non curat lex
They need to be sued. Their marketing doesn't correspond to historical reality. It should be tested in court. Especially now. I think that we're in a 1990 situation for young Pilots where there were no jobs again for 6 years. The jobs finally arrived with the development of the LCC's.
Any wild claims are bound to be challenged at the time? They are not mug punters?.
Marketing are bound to say what has actually happened in the last 12 months to customers who have completed.
xx % went RHS within 6 months of leaving.
They might say that “Higgy Haggy airline” has just interviewed here, and taken 10 out of 12 from Course No.123; they start their type rating on the ‘SST mk2’ next month.
[The 2 unsuccessful customers, failed a number of exams, took three attempts at the IRT, were spoilt brats and probably unemployable, due to lack of commitment etc]
Very few will actually believe what Gordon Brown said as Chancellor of the Exchequer (c.2005?) that the days of boom & bust are over. Economists talk about the 7 year cycle.
China needs to keep expansion going to ensure near full employment to avoid political unrest of the masses. That is an entirely different matter.....
Since when did any ATO guarantee that little Johnny will gain lucrative employment?
Only medical schools can say with some degree of certainty that employment is virtually guaranteed.
Now that is a hard slog with not less than 10 years from the start to becoming a GP. Hospital doctors even longer.
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If anyone is going to spent a six figure sum, which may well involve them remortgaging their house, so that their offspring can attend an ATO, don’t you think a significant amount of private research is done first?
Any wild claims are bound to be challenged at the time? They are not mug punters?.
Marketing are bound to say what has actually happened in the last 12 months to customers who have completed.
xx % went RHS within 6 months of leaving.
They might say that “Higgy Haggy airline” has just interviewed here, and taken 10 out of 12 from Course No.123; they start their type rating on the ‘SST mk2’ next month.
[The 2 unsuccessful customers, failed a number of exams, took three attempts at the IRT, were spoilt brats and probably unemployable, due to lack of commitment etc]
Very few will actually believe what Gordon Brown said as Chancellor of the Exchequer (c.2005?) that the days of boom & bust are over. Economists talk about the 7 year cycle.
China needs to keep expansion going to ensure near full employment to avoid political unrest of the masses. That is an entirely different matter.....
Since when did any ATO guarantee that little Johnny will gain lucrative employment?
Only medical schools can say with some degree of certainty that employment is virtually guaranteed.
Now that is a hard slog with not less than 10 years from the start to becoming a GP. Hospital doctors even longer.
Any wild claims are bound to be challenged at the time? They are not mug punters?.
Marketing are bound to say what has actually happened in the last 12 months to customers who have completed.
xx % went RHS within 6 months of leaving.
They might say that “Higgy Haggy airline” has just interviewed here, and taken 10 out of 12 from Course No.123; they start their type rating on the ‘SST mk2’ next month.
[The 2 unsuccessful customers, failed a number of exams, took three attempts at the IRT, were spoilt brats and probably unemployable, due to lack of commitment etc]
Very few will actually believe what Gordon Brown said as Chancellor of the Exchequer (c.2005?) that the days of boom & bust are over. Economists talk about the 7 year cycle.
China needs to keep expansion going to ensure near full employment to avoid political unrest of the masses. That is an entirely different matter.....
Since when did any ATO guarantee that little Johnny will gain lucrative employment?
Only medical schools can say with some degree of certainty that employment is virtually guaranteed.
Now that is a hard slog with not less than 10 years from the start to becoming a GP. Hospital doctors even longer.
I've been in this business for a very long time. I've never seen a Pilot Shortage, I have seen multiple Pilot gluts. That's never going to change.
Cadets have been selected over experienced candidates in order to keep FTO's training. Very unfortunate. The Cadet one day becomes the experienced candidate.
I have colleagues now, who are being terminated from current positions, high experience, 49 or 50 years old, expecting never to work again. I can assure you that those colleagues are the safer choice to an Airline than any Cadet.
de minimus non curat lex
I have : 1986-88
Apart from the military, where else are civilian pilots going to be produced?
Either Integrated or Modular route.....
If you had your way the only feasible route for 95%+ of budding aviators would be Modular.
ATOs would adapt accordingly and you would essentially be back to square one.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a self improver who used the 700 hour route under CAP54. I also taught both Integrated & Modular (CPL/IR upgrade) under CAP509, and JAR hybrid last century.
Apart from the military, where else are civilian pilots going to be produced?
Either Integrated or Modular route.....
If you had your way the only feasible route for 95%+ of budding aviators would be Modular.
ATOs would adapt accordingly and you would essentially be back to square one.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a self improver who used the 700 hour route under CAP54. I also taught both Integrated & Modular (CPL/IR upgrade) under CAP509, and JAR hybrid last century.
Last edited by parkfell; 25th Apr 2020 at 12:22. Reason: Added final sentence
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I have : 1986-88
Apart from the military, where else are civilian pilots going to be produced?
Either Integrated or Modular route.....
If you had your way the only feasible route for 95%+ of budding aviators would be Modular.
ATOs would adapt accordingly and you would essentially be back to square one.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a self improver who used the 700 hour route under CAP54. I also taught both Integrated & Modular (CPL/IR upgrade) under CAP509, and JAR hybrid last century.
Apart from the military, where else are civilian pilots going to be produced?
Either Integrated or Modular route.....
If you had your way the only feasible route for 95%+ of budding aviators would be Modular.
ATOs would adapt accordingly and you would essentially be back to square one.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a self improver who used the 700 hour route under CAP54. I also taught both Integrated & Modular (CPL/IR upgrade) under CAP509, and JAR hybrid last century.
People, like you, like me want to become Pilots whatever. Misrepresentation is made only in order to attract people who otherwise would not come into the industry.
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I have : 1986-88
Apart from the military, where else are civilian pilots going to be produced?
Either Integrated or Modular route.....
If you had your way the only feasible route for 95%+ of budding aviators would be Modular.
ATOs would adapt accordingly and you would essentially be back to square one.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a self improver who used the 700 hour route under CAP54. I also taught both Integrated & Modular (CPL/IR upgrade) under CAP509, and JAR hybrid last century.
Apart from the military, where else are civilian pilots going to be produced?
Either Integrated or Modular route.....
If you had your way the only feasible route for 95%+ of budding aviators would be Modular.
ATOs would adapt accordingly and you would essentially be back to square one.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am a self improver who used the 700 hour route under CAP54. I also taught both Integrated & Modular (CPL/IR upgrade) under CAP509, and JAR hybrid last century.
Same route as me! I have also taught at both Integrated and Modular. Preferred the Modular route as it seemed there was less marketing hype and less bullxxit for the students to swallow plus they only paid as they flew rather than coughing up huge sums in advance of training received which is more honourable.
Originally Posted by kungfu panda
. I've never seen a Pilot Shortage.
. I've never seen a Pilot Shortage.
Didn't stop Cabair advertising courses for the "predicted 1993 pilot shortage" (there wasn't one)
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Yes, just before Air Europe went down, if you had a letter saying you were on a course you had a job. Madrid ATC was only half full as everyone had gone flying.