8 Fails at the ATPL's
Sounds blunt but that number would scare most airlines off, not unreasonably.
You need to ask yourself, is it your method of learning that has caught you out do you think, and thus by being better prepared you could pass? If this is the case, I’d start again, you can still have a good chance of a job if you get a decent set next time. Or just go for your CPLs, then work up to ATPLs with a bit more practical experience, if you’re that kind of learner.
However, if you tried your hardest and that was the result then maybe this just isn’t the right career path and you’re better suited to other things. Only you can answer that, and there’s no shame in either answer, just potentially saves you a huge amount of time and money to make that decision now, rather than after taking a load more exams and being in the same position.
Or just stick with the career paths in aviation which don’t require an ATPL. While these jobs don’t pay as much, they usually offer you far more job satisfaction and fun.
I know lots of happy crop dusters, instructors and bush pilots who made this lifestyle choice.
I know lots of happy crop dusters, instructors and bush pilots who made this lifestyle choice.
You need to ask yourself some hard questions:
Realistically are you going to do much better if you start again? Is this the career for you? - ATPLs are the easy bit. Jobs are getting scarcer and interviews tougher. Passing a type rating requires constant work and you'll be studying every 6 months for the rest of your career.
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Really? You're kidding right? I've done 3 type ratings and the ATPL's were easily the hardest part, full of silly pointless material aimed at just catching you out, you just have to learn how to pass them. Type ratings are I feel a little easier as the spectrum of questions is a bit more exact, that said and I don't mean to be rude or forward but maybe this isn't the career for you? You will as others have pointed out be tested regularly throughout your career (albeit not as intensely as your ATPL) Not entirely sure as to what exams every 6 months other posters are referring to,could be country dependent, We do a tech refresher every 6 months but its an easy exam and usually done at home
Before JAA when it was the UK ATPL, you had 12 months to complete the the licence from the first subject pass. A non UK CPL holder, for eg., had to pass 14 subjects. At the first attempt you could only fail 2 "major" subjects and 2 "minor" subjects from those 14. You had to pass those fails within the 12 months but one resit IIRC. Three months between resits. Mostly written, not multi choose. Our Nav esams included the introduction of basic INS principals and operation, for the first time.
The majority of the content was of the nature which you would never use in flying again. How to work out an intercept of another a/c for eg., WTF would you need to intercept another a/c in civil aviation??
The authorities wanted to know if you were able to absorb a certain amount of information then spit it out on demand. Does that make you a good pilot or show intelligence? I say no. What one needs now is money.
If my memory serves me correctly. A bit of maybe interesting information to some and completely unless to others.
The majority of the content was of the nature which you would never use in flying again. How to work out an intercept of another a/c for eg., WTF would you need to intercept another a/c in civil aviation??
The authorities wanted to know if you were able to absorb a certain amount of information then spit it out on demand. Does that make you a good pilot or show intelligence? I say no. What one needs now is money.
If my memory serves me correctly. A bit of maybe interesting information to some and completely unless to others.
Last edited by Dan_Brown; 4th Jan 2020 at 22:20.
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I'm curious and I want to know, since I haven't taken any exams yet, how doable is it to pass the exams and even score 90% without having access to a question bank? Is it a necessity? Because it seems that it is. Did the OP use one?
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To pass decently the ATPL exams in my opinion you need to prepare 80% on the question bank and 20% on the books. Obviously this percentage varies between the subjects, for some of them is almost 100% question bank. Awful way to study, but that’s it. after i completed my exams (90% average) i studied on the books to learn better the concepts.
Not really on topic but hopefully will receive a chuckle.When I was undertaking a course, many years ago, for what, if memory serves me, was a SCPL I was told a number of stories, by the gentleman that ran the school. Apart from his personal stories, WWII fighter pilot, exchange posting post WW11 to the Sates, career in commercial airlines(TAA If memory serves), Physics Prof at a Uni etc. were the run in’s he had with what was CAA and the really bureaucratic let alone professional incompetency’s. Delightful chap but I am not 100% certain I have his name correct so will not state. One of his stories was on a young chap going for his CPL or SCPL and failing. Father (at that time a Check and Training CAPT with Q) not overly impressed and said son work harder. Son did so, resat, failed again. Father less impressed, tutored son. Son resat, failed again. Father again not impressed but having tutored son was aware of his knowledge so decided to sit the test with son and both failed. Father approached the testing body and was directed to the individual that did the marking to enquire about his and his son’s results. Individual said in a somewhat exacerbated tone, “it’s no mistake as I cannot make a mistake as a template is used and placed on the answer sheet” (the days of a,b,c or d) as he flourished the template. Father than enquired where are your other templates which received a dumbfounded look. It was than explained that there were five different sets of test’s which surprisingly required five templates. The “maker” than threw his hands in the air stating it wasn’t his fault as he was only filling in as he had been doing so for the last eighteen months.
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No. You won't get in the 90s without a question bank. You'd be lucky even to get a 75.
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I've done a few ATPL subject resits in my life, currently sitting LHS of an A320. I've never been to an interview before where they asked about my ATPL exam results. I've just been asked whether or not I have an valid ATPL.
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Unfortunately you need, without it you could be the most prepared one in the room but there is high risk of fail. Why? Bcs some questions are really stupid, some of them are written in a strange english or simply bcs some of them are not covered in books. Luckily not all of them are like this, but in an exam with few questions, just a few of them and you are bordeline
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My experience was to read the books, go through all of them and see if there's anything you can't understand. Most of the topics would be calling your attention, some of them would make you feel clueless, when you face something like this, get curious, there are many resources from online videos, flight instructors, fellow pilots/students, other books, to back up classes. The question bank is a nice tool to confirm that you are feeling comfortable to go for a test, but if you can't understand it then it would not make any difference.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Hmmmmm, I managed a 93% average without the question bank albeit a few years ago. When things start going wrong in an aircraft for real unfortunately they don't come in the form of multiple choice questions. Better to understand the theory and get 90% than memorise the question bank and get 95%. If you have properly applied yourself and failed eight subjects then you might have to reconsider your chosen path. If you haven't applied yourself then get off PPruNe and into those books!
Hmmmmm, I managed a 93% average without the question bank albeit a few years ago. When things start going wrong in an aircraft for real unfortunately they don't come in the form of multiple choice questions. Better to understand the theory and get 90% than memorise the question bank and get 95%. If you have properly applied yourself and failed eight subjects then you might have to reconsider your chosen path. If you haven't applied yourself then get off PPruNe and into those books!
I’d much rather use the bank and sit in a jet than not use it, fail, and return to my office job proud in the knowledge that I can work out the angles between two lines on a polar stereographic map better than my course mates could
OP, get yourself onto Bristol GS before you do anything else. If you can get to 85/90% on there, might be worth having another shot. Trust us, that’s what everyone else will be doing...
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mammagoose you are welcome to email me at [email protected] with the full story and I might be able to give you some guidance
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Hmmmmm, I managed a 93% average without the question bank albeit a few years ago. When things start going wrong in an aircraft for real unfortunately they don't come in the form of multiple choice questions. Better to understand the theory and get 90% than memorise the question bank and get 95%. If you have properly applied yourself and failed eight subjects then you might have to reconsider your chosen path. If you haven't applied yourself then get off PPruNe and into those books!
My point of view is that not using at least one database makes absolutely no sense today.
If you understood the subjects you'd probably agree with the following:
Air Law: memory exam, 2% useful knowledge in the real world.
RNAV: memory exam with a lot of useless numbers to be remembered.
Ops: pure memory.
The two comms: see above.
M&B: maybe 10 definitions to memorize, then if you know how to balance momentums you're good.
AGK: made by an engineer for engineers, no point in asking such details to a pilot. A lot of questions are type-specific (usually 737, sometimes 320) even if not specified. Make a guess and hope to dodge the bullet.
Meteo: interesting subject, especially once you realize you're just memorizing an ideal, simplified model. Science for kids, a lot of useless stuff to be memorized, unless you think knowing how many TRS forms East/West of Darwin every year is somehow useful in a cockpit. I don't. Anyway I enjoyed studying it.
Performance: learn how to use a POH and memorize a lot of factors because real pilots can't use manuals and notes, only their memory. A lot of unwritten assumptions in the questions.
Flight planning: liked it, but not using a question bank at least once will get you a nice fail.
POF: total nonsense. A lot of unwritten assumptions in the questions. A lot of wrong answers given as correct, especially in the supersonic flight section.
Instr: liked it, but quite similar to AGK. A lot of useless details for a pilot.
GNAV: nice one. Even nicer when they ask you to use CRP5 with answers differing by 1 kts or 1 degree. Examiner literally said to me:"I don't think they should include questions like this in the exam". You HAVE to use the CRP5 in some questions and the wind formula in others, otherwise you'll get the wrong answer. Even if it's even more precise than the one marked in green.
Human: meeeeeeemory and a lot of symptoms listed as correct are wrong or extremely rare (yes, working as an EMT as well).
I was even lucky enough to get an NAA which forbids the use of the Jeppesen Manual, so do you remember all those strange symbols, acronyms, minima and so on? Well, time to play memory games again...
Not using question banks in 2020 is just stupid and makes totally no sense when you're committed to first-passes with 90% or more. Advising someone to do the opposite is just pure sabotage.
Passing exams and understanding a subject are two completely separated processes. The first will get you a signed document from your NAA, the latter will make you pass your first technical interview and hopefully give you a rough basic idea on how things work. But when things will go wrong in flight these laughable exams won't do anything to help you.
You'll save the day with what your flight instructor taught in that little Cessna a million years ago, what that funny TRI managed to write into your brain during your TR and what that rich plane builder wrote in the QRH. And luck. That's pretty much it.
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OP is Italian, what financially rewarding jobs are there in European aviation that do not require an ATPL? Instructing? Nope, and that’s about it really. Net Jets etc in the corporate world won’t hire you if you can’t get an ATPL so you’re stuck flying 172s really.
Just from your posting history, you did your exams over a decade ago? If that’s the case then that was pre the EASA exam silliness of today. Whilst the content hasn’t changed (in itself part of the problem...) there is just no way you can pass the exams remotely well without using the bank. And given 99% of the people you’re competing with to get jobs do use the bank, what are you trying to achieve by not, martyrdom?
I’d much rather use the bank and sit in a jet than not use it, fail, and return to my office job proud in the knowledge that I can work out the angles between two lines on a polar stereographic map better than my course mates could
OP, get yourself onto Bristol GS before you do anything else. If you can get to 85/90% on there, might be worth having another shot. Trust us, that’s what everyone else will be doing...
BGS is good for studying, but I recommend AE and ATPLQ if you take your exams in Italy.
