I'd love a bit of guidance
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I'd love a bit of guidance
Hi all
So I am thinking at the age of 32 of jumping back into flying.
Backstory, I have 205 hours, flying since 18. Got all my commercial subjects but didn't test, as I ran out of money and love for it really. I used to put a lot of pressure on myself and one iffy landing would ruin my month. I'd like to think I am a bit older and more relaxed now.
I am originally from the UK, but have lived in the Netherlands, South Africa and New Zealand. Career-wise I would like to settle in one of those countries. All my training was done in South Africa (but a long time ago).
My ideal aircraft to fly would be the 737-800 long term.
One gripe I had with my flight training when I was young was there was no career guidance. I was with a flying club, and although very friendly, they offered nothing in terms of direction, and I thought I was throwing money at nothing in the end.
I am single and have no ties except for an elderly father in the UK. I have GBP 25K of savings, and I work from home, which is ideal, as it allows me to be mobile.
So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard again... Where would you go from here ladies and gentlemen?
So I am thinking at the age of 32 of jumping back into flying.
Backstory, I have 205 hours, flying since 18. Got all my commercial subjects but didn't test, as I ran out of money and love for it really. I used to put a lot of pressure on myself and one iffy landing would ruin my month. I'd like to think I am a bit older and more relaxed now.
I am originally from the UK, but have lived in the Netherlands, South Africa and New Zealand. Career-wise I would like to settle in one of those countries. All my training was done in South Africa (but a long time ago).
My ideal aircraft to fly would be the 737-800 long term.
One gripe I had with my flight training when I was young was there was no career guidance. I was with a flying club, and although very friendly, they offered nothing in terms of direction, and I thought I was throwing money at nothing in the end.
I am single and have no ties except for an elderly father in the UK. I have GBP 25K of savings, and I work from home, which is ideal, as it allows me to be mobile.
So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard again... Where would you go from here ladies and gentlemen?
If it is, great... you can seek further guidance on what you'll need to do to get to where you want to go (get recurrent, get exams/flight tests completed etc).
If it isn't, you'll be out a few quid but you'll save yourself thousands.
I am going to be realistic here, so no offence.
To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).
Even then, you will have no airline experience, no jet, and no heavy aircraft experience.
I am a very experienced pilot, formerly with two large respected airlines that have both gone into liquidation in the last 2 years. I have 11,700 hours, including the Airbus 320/321 and A330 for 13 years, and 18 years’ overall commercial passenger airline experience. I cannot get a job...........
I would spend your £25k on something like glider flying, I really would.
PS, the Boeing 737 is a flying jeep, i.e., cramped and basic. Don’t discount the Airbus, it is a fantastic product.
To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).
Even then, you will have no airline experience, no jet, and no heavy aircraft experience.
I am a very experienced pilot, formerly with two large respected airlines that have both gone into liquidation in the last 2 years. I have 11,700 hours, including the Airbus 320/321 and A330 for 13 years, and 18 years’ overall commercial passenger airline experience. I cannot get a job...........
I would spend your £25k on something like glider flying, I really would.
PS, the Boeing 737 is a flying jeep, i.e., cramped and basic. Don’t discount the Airbus, it is a fantastic product.
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I am going to be realistic here, so no offence.
To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).
Even then, you will have no airline experience, no jet, and no heavy aircraft experience.
I am a very experienced pilot, formerly with two large respected airlines that have both gone into liquidation in the last 2 years. I have 11,700 hours, including the Airbus 320/321 and A330 for 13 years, and 18 years’ overall commercial passenger airline experience. I cannot get a job...........
I would spend your £25k on something like glider flying, I really would.
PS, the Boeing 737 is a flying jeep, i.e., cramped and basic. Don’t discount the Airbus, it is a fantastic product.
To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).
Even then, you will have no airline experience, no jet, and no heavy aircraft experience.
I am a very experienced pilot, formerly with two large respected airlines that have both gone into liquidation in the last 2 years. I have 11,700 hours, including the Airbus 320/321 and A330 for 13 years, and 18 years’ overall commercial passenger airline experience. I cannot get a job...........
I would spend your £25k on something like glider flying, I really would.
PS, the Boeing 737 is a flying jeep, i.e., cramped and basic. Don’t discount the Airbus, it is a fantastic product.
Definitely not discounting any aircraft (and I think judging by your situation one cannot afford to be picky in the slightest?). I guess one cannot be picky about where you live either.
I've gone in for a couple of cadet programs (as I am getting to the top age bracket) and have failed the onboarding stages. They give you no feedback as to why which is frustrating. Cadet programs also tend to cater, if i am right, for those with no previous flying experience.
Thank you for your feedback and I hope your luck improves.
de minimus non curat lex
Hi all
So I am thinking at the age of 32 of jumping back into flying.
Backstory, I have 205 hours, flying since 18. Got all my commercial subjects but didn't test, as I ran out of money and love for it really. I used to put a lot of pressure on myself and one iffy landing would ruin my month. I'd like to think I am a bit older and more relaxed now.........(gap).....
So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard?
So I am thinking at the age of 32 of jumping back into flying.
Backstory, I have 205 hours, flying since 18. Got all my commercial subjects but didn't test, as I ran out of money and love for it really. I used to put a lot of pressure on myself and one iffy landing would ruin my month. I'd like to think I am a bit older and more relaxed now.........(gap).....
So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard?
Renew your PPL and then the modular route for the EASA exams, whilst working.
A (renewed) journey of a thousand miles, starts with a single step.
By the time you have a valid PPL again, you will know whether you want to proceed further.
Slightly concerned about how a ropey landing caused such frustration. For a perfectionist, such a normal training event can seriously inhibit progress.
You might consider a psychometric assessment such as 16PF to assess your suitability before spending your hard earned money
To get an airline job you only need a frozen ATPL (CPL, MEIR and MCC/JOC). You definitely do not need an ATPL or a type rating. Obviously having them as well is helpful, but there are plenty of airlines that will pay for the type rating. To get a modular fATPL from scratch will cost £40k but in your case probably more like £20-25k as you need no hour building.
1 Get an EASA class one medical. This is the most important step - perfectly fit people have gone all the way through their training to find they couldn't get a medical because of something they knew nothing about. Go to the CAA website and book an initial right now. You'll be buzzing once you've got the ball rolling!
2 Get to a school/club and go for a flight. You'll need a valid ICAO PPL to take the ATPL exams, so renew whatever licence you hold, or if it's easier, take an EASA PPL test. I stopped flying for 10 years and it took me 3 flights/3.9 hours to get back up to standard, so that should give you an idea.
3 Once you've got a valid PPL, sign up for ATPL ground school. I went for distance learning because it's cheaper and quicker (you don't have to go at the pace of the slowest person!) There is no need to fly much it at all during this phase (4 months to infinity depending on ability)
4 ATPLs in hand, get a night rating if you need one. If you have 5 hours night you'll be exempt. Then get an IRR and an IR via the CBIR route this can be single engine. No one does a full IR if they know the CBIR exists!
5 Once you have the IR, you will qualify for a reduced 15 hour CPL - again single engine. This is why you should almost always do the IR before the CPL. **You don't need to get a multi engine CPL, only an MEIR**
6 Multi engine time: Assuming you've never flown ME before, you need to do an MEP course of 6 hours. ***You do not need to take the test, just the course***
Now you can do a short 5 hour course to get the MEIR.
7 get an MCC/JOC on a suitable type (737 is a good one)
8 Find a job. Do your homework. Network. Be in the right place at the right time. Get lucky or create your own luck. I'd suggest buying a suitable wheel, tyre, jack and spanner, then follow the chief pilot of your chosen airline until he/she gets a puncture.
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There are many ways to skin a cat, but here's my advice:
1 Get an EASA class one medical. This is the most important step - perfectly fit people have gone all the way through their training to find they couldn't get a medical because of something they knew nothing about. Go to the CAA website and book an initial right now. You'll be buzzing once you've got the ball rolling!
2 Get to a school/club and go for a flight. You'll need a valid ICAO PPL to take the ATPL exams, so renew whatever licence you hold, or if it's easier, take an EASA PPL test. I stopped flying for 10 years and it took me 3 flights/3.9 hours to get back up to standard, so that should give you an idea.
3 Once you've got a valid PPL, sign up for ATPL ground school. I went for distance learning because it's cheaper and quicker (you don't have to go at the pace of the slowest person!) There is no need to fly much it at all during this phase (4 months to infinity depending on ability)
4 ATPLs in hand, get a night rating if you need one. If you have 5 hours night you'll be exempt. Then get an IRR and an IR via the CBIR route this can be single engine. No one does a full IR if they know the CBIR exists!
5 Once you have the IR, you will qualify for a reduced 15 hour CPL - again single engine. This is why you should almost always do the IR before the CPL. **You don't need to get a multi engine CPL, only an MEIR**
6 Multi engine time: Assuming you've never flown ME before, you need to do an MEP course of 6 hours. ***You do not need to take the test, just the course***
Now you can do a short 5 hour course to get the MEIR.
7 get an MCC/JOC on a suitable type (737 is a good one)
8 Find a job. Do your homework. Network. Be in the right place at the right time. Get lucky or create your own luck. I'd suggest buying a suitable wheel, tyre, jack and spanner, then follow the chief pilot of your chosen airline until he/she gets a puncture.
1 Get an EASA class one medical. This is the most important step - perfectly fit people have gone all the way through their training to find they couldn't get a medical because of something they knew nothing about. Go to the CAA website and book an initial right now. You'll be buzzing once you've got the ball rolling!
2 Get to a school/club and go for a flight. You'll need a valid ICAO PPL to take the ATPL exams, so renew whatever licence you hold, or if it's easier, take an EASA PPL test. I stopped flying for 10 years and it took me 3 flights/3.9 hours to get back up to standard, so that should give you an idea.
3 Once you've got a valid PPL, sign up for ATPL ground school. I went for distance learning because it's cheaper and quicker (you don't have to go at the pace of the slowest person!) There is no need to fly much it at all during this phase (4 months to infinity depending on ability)
4 ATPLs in hand, get a night rating if you need one. If you have 5 hours night you'll be exempt. Then get an IRR and an IR via the CBIR route this can be single engine. No one does a full IR if they know the CBIR exists!
5 Once you have the IR, you will qualify for a reduced 15 hour CPL - again single engine. This is why you should almost always do the IR before the CPL. **You don't need to get a multi engine CPL, only an MEIR**
6 Multi engine time: Assuming you've never flown ME before, you need to do an MEP course of 6 hours. ***You do not need to take the test, just the course***
Now you can do a short 5 hour course to get the MEIR.
7 get an MCC/JOC on a suitable type (737 is a good one)
8 Find a job. Do your homework. Network. Be in the right place at the right time. Get lucky or create your own luck. I'd suggest buying a suitable wheel, tyre, jack and spanner, then follow the chief pilot of your chosen airline until he/she gets a puncture.
Speaking more broadly than most of the excellent advice above, and as an old bloke, I mostly regret the things I didn’t do, rather than mistakes I made along the way.
You’re still young. If it’s your dream, give it your best shot.
You’re still young. If it’s your dream, give it your best shot.
Glad to be corrected re the price.
Sorry if I was a bit harsh, now I immediately feel bad!
There are a few big name rip off merchants will take £120k for an integrated course to be fair. But most people on a budget will opt to go modular. You can get an FAA PPL for £7000 and an FAA IR for about the same. Or you can get an EASA PPL for under £10k and follow it with an IR(R). You can still hour build in a group aircraft in the south of England for £75 per hour of you want to build time slowly, or you can fly 6 hours a day in the US because of better weather and availability. Either of those routes will put you in a position to do a CBIR course which depending on what you've done during your hour building could be anything from 5 to 25 hours, adding the MEIR and CPL works out under £10k. Even with a decent MCC/JOC there's no need to spend more than £40k.
There are a few big name rip off merchants will take £120k for an integrated course to be fair. But most people on a budget will opt to go modular. You can get an FAA PPL for £7000 and an FAA IR for about the same. Or you can get an EASA PPL for under £10k and follow it with an IR(R). You can still hour build in a group aircraft in the south of England for £75 per hour of you want to build time slowly, or you can fly 6 hours a day in the US because of better weather and availability. Either of those routes will put you in a position to do a CBIR course which depending on what you've done during your hour building could be anything from 5 to 25 hours, adding the MEIR and CPL works out under £10k. Even with a decent MCC/JOC there's no need to spend more than £40k.
Well, at least you lived up to your forum name 
I added the ‘I believe’ because I wasn’t sure if this was universally the case and you have corrected me, so everyone is happy
I would add that some airlines favour, or used to favour those who did a full time integrated CAP509 ATPL course with all the flying and classroom instruction for all the written exams included, over those who went the home study, hour building, CPL route. Some airline application forms I filled in many years ago asked this exact question.
But, good luck to the OP
I added the ‘I believe’ because I wasn’t sure if this was universally the case and you have corrected me, so everyone is happy
I would add that some airlines favour, or used to favour those who did a full time integrated CAP509 ATPL course with all the flying and classroom instruction for all the written exams included, over those who went the home study, hour building, CPL route. Some airline application forms I filled in many years ago asked this exact question.
But, good luck to the OP
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You often get what you pay for. Such a price can be considered unreasonable since you could get the same with 60k or less, but these schools hardly stay in business unless their service is absolutely top-notch and centered around the student. In this sense, I can understand why there are people willing to pay such sums rather than do their training half the cost.
What I do know is that for £120k I could get not only a CPL(A)/IR but also a CPL(H)/IR, both Flight instructor tickets and probably a float plane rating.
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Not sure why you think 32 is getting towards the top age bracket for a cadet programme? You're still very young with a lot of life experience and maturity compared to someone fresh out of school at 17/18. It can definitely be seen as a positive, so long as your market it in that sense to a prospective employer.
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Just as you can train at a reputable school in UK (and Europe) utilizing the Modular Route for £50,000 or similar, you can train in the USA at a reputable EASA school for $50,000. The decision to pay TWICE that amount, which has been the subject of the "Integrated vs Modular" debate for decades it seems cannot be litigated or decided in any one post - so I am not going to even try here.
Nevertheless, my opinion, after 45 years experience in the flight training business, is only consider paying TWICE the amount for the same qualification if it is for an airline sponsored scheme with a job guarantee at the end. Don't be fooled by the marketing hype, I mean a 'real' guarantee (subject to your performance naturally). Often in these schemes, the airlines has some skin in the game so it is usually 'real' and something worth seriously considering.
Over the years there have been such legitimate schemes (airline sponsored) where you start with an up front 'competitive' assessment to get a place, are then managed throughout the training by experienced instructors who usually have to send a monthly report to the airline about how you are doing, which culminates in your graduation to a high standard and going straight to the FO seat with the sponsoring airline. Sadly, these were often too expensive for many, but were good schemes nevertheless.
Today, such schemes are very rare indeed, although when you read the marketing hype of many integrated schools you might think they are something similar to what I describe, but they are not.
My advice, read the print carefully and don't be fooled by the hype, make you own independent intelligent decision, but always bear in mind one indisputable FACT: many thousands of pilots today fly for an airline (or do other valuable commercial flying jobs) and only paid half the amount of many thousands of pilots who work for the same or similar airlines - no hype, just fact, so its time to chose your destiny!
Nevertheless, my opinion, after 45 years experience in the flight training business, is only consider paying TWICE the amount for the same qualification if it is for an airline sponsored scheme with a job guarantee at the end. Don't be fooled by the marketing hype, I mean a 'real' guarantee (subject to your performance naturally). Often in these schemes, the airlines has some skin in the game so it is usually 'real' and something worth seriously considering.
Over the years there have been such legitimate schemes (airline sponsored) where you start with an up front 'competitive' assessment to get a place, are then managed throughout the training by experienced instructors who usually have to send a monthly report to the airline about how you are doing, which culminates in your graduation to a high standard and going straight to the FO seat with the sponsoring airline. Sadly, these were often too expensive for many, but were good schemes nevertheless.
Today, such schemes are very rare indeed, although when you read the marketing hype of many integrated schools you might think they are something similar to what I describe, but they are not.
My advice, read the print carefully and don't be fooled by the hype, make you own independent intelligent decision, but always bear in mind one indisputable FACT: many thousands of pilots today fly for an airline (or do other valuable commercial flying jobs) and only paid half the amount of many thousands of pilots who work for the same or similar airlines - no hype, just fact, so its time to chose your destiny!
