CAE Oxford Vs L3 (CTC)
de minimus non curat lex
These “no hopers” hopefully removed at an early stage of training can depend entirely on the market in my experience as I recall a couple of students who reached a spectacular 40-50 hours, numerous review boards etc. prior to solo, who were allowed to continue despite their apparent ineptitude. One certainly made it to RYR in the end. Another I remember chopped just short of about 35 hours and no solo on the horizon at a fair weather base but was actually allowed to continue training back at home by the same school. Got through the CPL IIRC but never made it to the IR.
I find it interesting whenever these discussions appear that folk are prepared to pay top dollar for integrated training on the basis that you might get an interview (again, when the market is buoyant...plenty didn't during the last downturn but according to the marketing, that's the best time to train, right?), yet accept that the instructors are barely out of training themselves. Naturally, you don't know this pre-training, and of course it's been this way for a long time, but it says a lot about the industry in terms of quality and experience vs access.
I find it interesting whenever these discussions appear that folk are prepared to pay top dollar for integrated training on the basis that you might get an interview (again, when the market is buoyant...plenty didn't during the last downturn but according to the marketing, that's the best time to train, right?), yet accept that the instructors are barely out of training themselves. Naturally, you don't know this pre-training, and of course it's been this way for a long time, but it says a lot about the industry in terms of quality and experience vs access.
BAe flying college at Prestwick set a minimum experience for Flying Instructors at one thousand instructional hours in the late 1980s. 90% were ex RAF A2 instructors. The course was 200 hours flying + simulator. A QUALITY COURSE.
Students were allowed up to 15 hours to go solo. Anything more than this and Standards would get involved. Occasionally a chop ride would occur. The Cathay students were allowed up to 20 hours, as they probably hadn’t even driven a car in HK.
Six Progress Tests, five on the PA28/AS202 and the F170A on the PA34. Fail the same PT twice, and your days might well be numbered.
And being INTEGRATED, the bulk of the 16 month course was day ON, day OFF flying alternating with Ground school.
No question of allowing “no hopers” to continue. Unfair on them to be allowed to continue with absolutely no prospect of success.
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Indeed parkfell, I worked under 509 and the students mentioned were long after we moved to JAR-FCL and some time after 'Standards' were disbanded. I don't think anyone fails the PT's anymore and in fact, I recall that individual sorties, and I'm sure PT's were enhanced by management following student complaints that a lower grade might affect their chances of a job. The so called 'Children of the magenta line' are not only a result of generational differences but also the way training is conducted these days in my view, and this from places with a rich legacy of quality cadet pilot training. Reputation takes years to build and seconds to destroy...
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Breakaway school from Oxford/CAE currently taking students on contact from L3/CTC because L3 can't cope/have taken on a military contract that they prioritise over self funded cadets. I give up on this thread, to be accused of 'slander' is too much. good luck OP
Don't take it to heart if someone makes a comment you don't like.
It may be a really useful opinion to someone else, and they may greatly appreciate your input.
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Absolutely, what suits one person may not suit another and vice versa. Countless people will likely come along and see this thread.
de minimus non curat lex
The written word, as oppose to speech.
I think the OP was wide of the mark when the ‘S’ word was mentioned.
I, amongst others, couldn’t see any comment which remotely would get close to m’learned friends looking for their pound of fresh.
Perhaps OP would like to point out those threads where such heinous crimes were committed?
Otherwise obtain your medical and just get on with it.......
Last edited by parkfell; 17th Sep 2019 at 09:57. Reason: Syntax
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Awesome, when ou graduate let us know how the job search goes good bad.
Please don't disappear and not tell us how we are getting on, there doesn't seem to be anyone from there who is saying they were unemployed in the end, but if you are please tell on here.
Good luck with your training and job search
Please don't disappear and not tell us how we are getting on, there doesn't seem to be anyone from there who is saying they were unemployed in the end, but if you are please tell on here.
Good luck with your training and job search
de minimus non curat lex
Awesome, when ou graduate let us know how the job search goes good bad.
Please don't disappear and not tell us how we are getting on, there doesn't seem to be anyone from there who is saying they were unemployed in the end, but if you are please tell on here.
Good luck with your training and job search
Please don't disappear and not tell us how we are getting on, there doesn't seem to be anyone from there who is saying they were unemployed in the end, but if you are please tell on here.
Good luck with your training and job search
Probably modular route given what you are hearing...?
The German word is “Schadenfreude” might be appropriate here?
I shall leave for others to judge.
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Bit harsh there fella, am I missing something ?
I also would love to hear more about how you progress and what situation you ultimately end up in, I also pledge to do the same, particularly if I do end up at CAE or L3.
I also would love to hear more about how you progress and what situation you ultimately end up in, I also pledge to do the same, particularly if I do end up at CAE or L3.
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L3 Integrated ATPL December Start Date
Hi all,
Long time lurker but first time poster here.
Starting my Integrated ATPL with L3 in Southampton in December, anyone else here?
Long time lurker but first time poster here.
Starting my Integrated ATPL with L3 in Southampton in December, anyone else here?
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L3 atpl
Hi,
I'm starting the atpl with L3, but in January and will do ground school in Coventry. I messaged you but your box is full :-)
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I'm starting the atpl with L3, but in January and will do ground school in Coventry. I messaged you but your box is full :-)
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Bit late replying but I started in Southampton in September so I’m sure I’ll see you around! Not sure how much posting history I need before being able to PM you otherwise I’d send my contact details!
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thanks for the info, at the min CAE is the front runner for me right now.
I have moved to the interview stage, the delay rumours at L3 I found off putting.... second choice to CAE would be FTA Shoreham at the min which I might well pop down and have a chat with them next year also.
It seems to me they all have there issues, but I agree, they do seem unpopular by a fair few across these boards.
I have moved to the interview stage, the delay rumours at L3 I found off putting.... second choice to CAE would be FTA Shoreham at the min which I might well pop down and have a chat with them next year also.
It seems to me they all have there issues, but I agree, they do seem unpopular by a fair few across these boards.
So this thread is full of plenty of truth but there also seems to be plenty of half truths (fuelled by jealousy?) going about too with little basis in reality.
As a current L3 cadet I can’t speak of CAE but have heard similar stories from them
1. L3 DO have serious serious capacity issues that they still are failing to address-some courses are getting 6-8 month delays, some are getting sent home after having started flight training and some still don’t have confirmed timelines with later stages of training not even made aware to them- all in all a real sh!t show.
L3 can (fairly) say this is not all of their own doing as they’ve been let down by aircraft trainer OEMs and airlines have been sucking up their instructors faster than they can train them ( let this pour cold water on those here spreading fear of current state of the airline industry). But L3 have been far too slow to address this issue- they didn’t slow down intake fast enough and only now have they started offering airline salaries to their FIs.
2. training standards ARE very high in L3, they want you to pass everything first time and to get a very high mark. I’ve heard of many modular students on their 3rd/4th sitting for GS exams or averaging high 70% pass rates. In L3 this is almost unheard of- average pas rate is easily 85% across the 14 and almost everyone gets this with first time passes.
It’s fair to say that the L3 selection process (which is identical to Virgin, BA and EasyJet MPLs) is also responsible for that. Almost all cadets are very bright with high aptitude.
it should be noted that L3 have recently tightened their hold pool policy also so that less well performing cadets are not eligible for the hold pool.
As for flight training the instructors in NZ are very capable on the whole. It is hit and miss to a degree- I know some got some less than helpful instructors but the vast vast majority are exceptional at what they do and what the L3 brass tell you down there about having the highest standards in the industry is correct. They are from day one trying to get you prepared for the RHS of a jet and they train with this in mind.
(I’ve only just passed CPL so cant speak of the quality ar BOR where you do advanced ME/IR but I’m told standards there are very high too)
3. in terms of placement this is a rather shady subject with L3. Internally the information we are told now is quite different to what we are told at selection. Placement rates ARE very high (>95%) and that too within 1-3 months of completing training
if you can afford it these schools are a good place to go for ab-Intio training but remember that once you’ve signed the contract and handed over your money you’re at the mercy of L3 and they are utterly utterly pathetic with their communication and ability to give truth to their cadets. Don’t believe everything you hear though about L3 from people that have never been trained by/at L3 establishments. There is a LOT of animosity towards CTC/L3 for reasons that are best left to your imaginations, plenty seem to want to justify their own decisions and think they need to put down CTC/L3 to do this.
As a current L3 cadet I can’t speak of CAE but have heard similar stories from them
1. L3 DO have serious serious capacity issues that they still are failing to address-some courses are getting 6-8 month delays, some are getting sent home after having started flight training and some still don’t have confirmed timelines with later stages of training not even made aware to them- all in all a real sh!t show.
L3 can (fairly) say this is not all of their own doing as they’ve been let down by aircraft trainer OEMs and airlines have been sucking up their instructors faster than they can train them ( let this pour cold water on those here spreading fear of current state of the airline industry). But L3 have been far too slow to address this issue- they didn’t slow down intake fast enough and only now have they started offering airline salaries to their FIs.
2. training standards ARE very high in L3, they want you to pass everything first time and to get a very high mark. I’ve heard of many modular students on their 3rd/4th sitting for GS exams or averaging high 70% pass rates. In L3 this is almost unheard of- average pas rate is easily 85% across the 14 and almost everyone gets this with first time passes.
It’s fair to say that the L3 selection process (which is identical to Virgin, BA and EasyJet MPLs) is also responsible for that. Almost all cadets are very bright with high aptitude.
it should be noted that L3 have recently tightened their hold pool policy also so that less well performing cadets are not eligible for the hold pool.
As for flight training the instructors in NZ are very capable on the whole. It is hit and miss to a degree- I know some got some less than helpful instructors but the vast vast majority are exceptional at what they do and what the L3 brass tell you down there about having the highest standards in the industry is correct. They are from day one trying to get you prepared for the RHS of a jet and they train with this in mind.
(I’ve only just passed CPL so cant speak of the quality ar BOR where you do advanced ME/IR but I’m told standards there are very high too)
3. in terms of placement this is a rather shady subject with L3. Internally the information we are told now is quite different to what we are told at selection. Placement rates ARE very high (>95%) and that too within 1-3 months of completing training
if you can afford it these schools are a good place to go for ab-Intio training but remember that once you’ve signed the contract and handed over your money you’re at the mercy of L3 and they are utterly utterly pathetic with their communication and ability to give truth to their cadets. Don’t believe everything you hear though about L3 from people that have never been trained by/at L3 establishments. There is a LOT of animosity towards CTC/L3 for reasons that are best left to your imaginations, plenty seem to want to justify their own decisions and think they need to put down CTC/L3 to do this.
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Dangerous times to be considering forking out large swathes of cash.
Since Monarch, Thomas Cook, Flybe, Covid-19 and all that that entails it will be YEARS before the UK airline industry is even ready to consider saying “Hey! We must hire some new FOs!”
Had my Loganair November Assessment cancelled. Now they only want ex-Flybe or ATR rated crews. BA muttering about layoffs. Norwegian suffering.
I do understand that Training organisations have employees too, however. Just be aware that they need your cash too,
Since Monarch, Thomas Cook, Flybe, Covid-19 and all that that entails it will be YEARS before the UK airline industry is even ready to consider saying “Hey! We must hire some new FOs!”
Had my Loganair November Assessment cancelled. Now they only want ex-Flybe or ATR rated crews. BA muttering about layoffs. Norwegian suffering.
I do understand that Training organisations have employees too, however. Just be aware that they need your cash too,
