CAE Oxford Vs L3 (CTC)
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I think that the idea that these big schools somehow provide a 'better' quality of training to 'carefully selected' cadets originates only from their (very well funded) marketing departments. When you look elsewhere you find a different story. Andy O'Shea, who recently left the post of Ryanair Head of Training, repeatedly said that as far as Ryanair was concerned there was no difference in output quality between selected integrated students and self-improving modular students. Easyjet's Cadet of the year for 2017 (the last year I can find info for) was a modular student
de minimus non curat lex
I think that the idea that these big schools somehow provide a 'better' quality of training to 'carefully selected' cadets originates only from their (very well funded) marketing departments. When you look elsewhere you find a different story. Andy O'Shea, who recently left the post of Ryanair Head of Training, repeatedly said that as far as Ryanair was concerned there was no difference in output quality between selected integrated students and self-improving modular students. Easyjet's Cadet of the year for 2017 (the last year I can find info for) was a modular student
So first time passes in all 14 exams with high marks. 90%+ is a figure I have in mind, and particularly well in the Navigation paper. Shows your brain is wired up right. Flying side first time passes within syllabus hours and you enjoy it.
The critical part is the MCC where you learn the 2 crew flying in a jet. This is the acid test, and the most difficult part of the basic training. Your 'suitability' for the RHS will be assessed. Only hard work will produce the standard required.
Be in no doubt that just because you choose to go down the Integrated route (self funding) it will somehow guarantee employment. It will not.
You, the customer, need to come up with the goods. Simple as that.
Last edited by parkfell; 30th Aug 2019 at 15:40.
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Makes total sense, regardless of the route if your not in the higher percentile your time is going to be harder and harder regardless of school, obviously the school can’t fo it for you, a good school should and hopefully will get the most out of its student if he or she has the dexterity for the work...I’m certain I have that side I’m relentless (and I’m sure that will be very well tested) , obviously cant be totally sure how good an individual may be in other aspects just gotta go and do your best.
Adding to what Alex said, it probably doesn't matter which route you follow. The bottom line is how well you do during your training, and how you perform at the interview etc and simulator assessment with the prospective employer.
So first time passes in all 14 exams with high marks. 90%+ is a figure I have in mind, and particularly well in the Navigation paper. Shows your brain is wired up right. Flying side first time passes within syllabus hours and you enjoy it.
The critical part is the MCC where you learn the 2 crew flying in a jet. This is the acid test, and the most difficult part of the basic training. Your 'suitability' for the RHS will be assessed. Only hard work will produce the standard required.
Be in no doubt that just because you choose to go down the Integrated route (self funding) it will somehow guarantee employment. It will not.
You, the customer, need to come up with the goods. Simple as that.
Adding to what Alex said, it probably doesn't matter which route you follow. The bottom line is how well you do during your training, and how you perform at the interview etc and simulator assessment with the prospective employer.
So first time passes in all 14 exams with high marks. 90%+ is a figure I have in mind, and particularly well in the Navigation paper. Shows your brain is wired up right. Flying side first time passes within syllabus hours and you enjoy it.
The critical part is the MCC where you learn the 2 crew flying in a jet. This is the acid test, and the most difficult part of the basic training. Your 'suitability' for the RHS will be assessed. Only hard work will produce the standard required.
Be in no doubt that just because you choose to go down the Integrated route (self funding) it will somehow guarantee employment. It will not.
You, the customer, need to come up with the goods. Simple as that.
de minimus non curat lex
Makes total sense, regardless of the route if your not in the higher percentile your time is going to be harder and harder regardless of school, obviously the school can’t fo it for you, a good school should and hopefully will get the most out of its student if he or she has the dexterity for the work...I’m certain I have that side I’m relentless (and I’m sure that will be very well tested) , obviously cant be totally sure how good an individual may be in other aspects just gotta go and do your best.
The difficulty comes when the commercial side fails to communicate with the training side as to what is feasible/sensible given the resources available.
So when a subject is blitzed full time by a contractor in a few weeks, it hardly allows time for the osmosis to work for the customer. Just why the CAA allows this, I simply don't know. Well perhaps I do......
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Adding to Alex and Parkfell...
These days, you should look at the interview process in terms of Knowledge, Skills and Attitude:
Knowledge. SOPs. The importance of the operations manual. There is much in there that requires a great deal of application to learn, understand and remember, and you will probably be expected to do so within a few days of joining the company (in this respect, do not dismiss the Operational Procedures exam - of all of them, this one will be the most relevant when you start working). What is your attitude towards keeping to its provisions? What does recommended mean? Can you create a balance between something being safe, legal and efficient (in that order, of course)? Can you cope with commercial pressure, as your job relies on the company making money? When can or must you (or the company) say no and, if so, how?
Skills. Companies will be looking for IF skills of the highest order (there are plenty of applicants who can't fly a manual ILS, or even manipulate the machine). Inexperienced pilots may have done their initial IR some time ago, and it will show. It is expensive, but you must keep up your skills, which are highly perishable.
Attitude. CRM, TEM, and MCC are everything. How do you get on with other pilots? Even though you may be inexperienced, can you advocate your position effectively? How do you tell experienced captains that what they are doing is wrong, or that they have missed something? Could you take control of the aircraft if you felt you should? Equally, can other pilots put up with you on a 6 hour round trip? Can you communicate effectively? How does the communication loop work? What are the 4 behavioural markers within NOTECHS in terms of social and cognitive skills? What does TEM mean? What are threats and errors? What is a UAS? Don't forget that UAS is a transitional state, so what are the end states?
Finally, MAT! (Maintain Aircraft Control). Analyse the situation, take appropriate action. Consider other analytical tools such as DODAR.
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS REVIEW!!!!!! Is the plan still valid? What has changed? Do I need to rethink? Have I got it wrong?
These days, you should look at the interview process in terms of Knowledge, Skills and Attitude:
Knowledge. SOPs. The importance of the operations manual. There is much in there that requires a great deal of application to learn, understand and remember, and you will probably be expected to do so within a few days of joining the company (in this respect, do not dismiss the Operational Procedures exam - of all of them, this one will be the most relevant when you start working). What is your attitude towards keeping to its provisions? What does recommended mean? Can you create a balance between something being safe, legal and efficient (in that order, of course)? Can you cope with commercial pressure, as your job relies on the company making money? When can or must you (or the company) say no and, if so, how?
Skills. Companies will be looking for IF skills of the highest order (there are plenty of applicants who can't fly a manual ILS, or even manipulate the machine). Inexperienced pilots may have done their initial IR some time ago, and it will show. It is expensive, but you must keep up your skills, which are highly perishable.
Attitude. CRM, TEM, and MCC are everything. How do you get on with other pilots? Even though you may be inexperienced, can you advocate your position effectively? How do you tell experienced captains that what they are doing is wrong, or that they have missed something? Could you take control of the aircraft if you felt you should? Equally, can other pilots put up with you on a 6 hour round trip? Can you communicate effectively? How does the communication loop work? What are the 4 behavioural markers within NOTECHS in terms of social and cognitive skills? What does TEM mean? What are threats and errors? What is a UAS? Don't forget that UAS is a transitional state, so what are the end states?
Finally, MAT! (Maintain Aircraft Control). Analyse the situation, take appropriate action. Consider other analytical tools such as DODAR.
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS REVIEW!!!!!! Is the plan still valid? What has changed? Do I need to rethink? Have I got it wrong?
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Yes it seems highly concentrated, they are a business and need to earn to function...as a business owner, its understandable, I guess that's why the assessments are so rigorous (so I hear) students need to be able to keep up, some can some can't.
The large commercial UK schools in common with the airlines have a primary objective ~ maximise the bottom line for the benefit of the shareholders. Depending upon the size of ATO, you will be just a 'number' , a profit unit, in their great sausage machine. After all they are a business, and not a registered charity.
The difficulty comes when the commercial side fails to communicate with the training side as to what is feasible/sensible given the resources available.
So when a subject is blitzed full time by a contractor in a few weeks, it hardly allows time for the osmosis to work for the customer. Just why the CAA allows this, I simply don't know. Well perhaps I do......
The large commercial UK schools in common with the airlines have a primary objective ~ maximise the bottom line for the benefit of the shareholders. Depending upon the size of ATO, you will be just a 'number' , a profit unit, in their great sausage machine. After all they are a business, and not a registered charity.
The difficulty comes when the commercial side fails to communicate with the training side as to what is feasible/sensible given the resources available.
So when a subject is blitzed full time by a contractor in a few weeks, it hardly allows time for the osmosis to work for the customer. Just why the CAA allows this, I simply don't know. Well perhaps I do......
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The attitude point is an interesting one. The attitude of a significant percentage of cadets from the two big integrated schools is one alluded to earlier in this thread, that they have bought "the best" course (or bank of mum and dad have ) and therefore should be guaranteed a job. This is irrespective of actual performance achieved and most significantly, effort put in. Any poor progress is blamed on instructors, encouraged by a "customer knows best" attitude of the management.
The end result is some 10-25% who are just revenue fodder and really should not be there in the first place. The "selection standard" in fact is not standard at all, and varies depending upon how easily (or not) the schools are filling places.
This thread seems to have confirmation bias problems in seeking justification for an already decided course of action.
I have not not seen anything so far that supplies this sought after justification though....
The end result is some 10-25% who are just revenue fodder and really should not be there in the first place. The "selection standard" in fact is not standard at all, and varies depending upon how easily (or not) the schools are filling places.
This thread seems to have confirmation bias problems in seeking justification for an already decided course of action.
I have not not seen anything so far that supplies this sought after justification though....
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I would imagine most go to these schools take it very seriously, realise the responsibility and work very, very hard and end up on the right path, I’m seeing little evidence to suggest otherwise? Where are all these people that have been hard done by, conned out of money and have no job bad news like this always spreads like wildfire where is it?
All I’m getting is lots of people commenting that its mad and the people must be stupid and there relying on mum and dad insinuating thats wrong, if the parents are willing to sacrifice to give there kids a dream shot in what they feel is a world renowned and appreciated by airline (employer) school whats wrong with that? There doing what they feel is best after weighing up the info that they almost certainly researched like everyone else . I think its harsh and unfair to run people down like many are doing here on these boards it seems like theres a lot of of people with chips on there shoulders...theres a good argument to be had integrated vs modular and if someone has something useful to add they ahoukd lay down the facts... there is little evidence of this negative rhetoric only opinions, most of which if not all of which are coming from people who haven’t set foot in these places...there seems to be just a hint of jealousy about, at least thats how it appears to me.
All I’m getting is lots of people commenting that its mad and the people must be stupid and there relying on mum and dad insinuating thats wrong, if the parents are willing to sacrifice to give there kids a dream shot in what they feel is a world renowned and appreciated by airline (employer) school whats wrong with that? There doing what they feel is best after weighing up the info that they almost certainly researched like everyone else . I think its harsh and unfair to run people down like many are doing here on these boards it seems like theres a lot of of people with chips on there shoulders...theres a good argument to be had integrated vs modular and if someone has something useful to add they ahoukd lay down the facts... there is little evidence of this negative rhetoric only opinions, most of which if not all of which are coming from people who haven’t set foot in these places...there seems to be just a hint of jealousy about, at least thats how it appears to me.
Last edited by sms8; 2nd Sep 2019 at 07:53.
de minimus non curat lex
I would imagine most go to these schools take it very seriously, realise the responsibility and work very, very hard and end up on the right path, I’m seeing little evidence to suggest otherwise? Where are all these people that have been hard done by, conned out of money and have no job bad news like this always spreads like wildfire where is it?
All I’m getting is lots of people commenting that its mad and the people must be stupid and there relying on mum and dad insinuating thats wrong, if the parents are willing to sacrifice to give there kids a dream shot in what they feel is a world renowned and appreciated by airline (employer) school whats wrong with that? There doing what they feel is best after weighing up the info that they almost certainly researched like everyone else . I think its harsh and unfair to run people down like many are doing here on these boards it seems like theres a lot of of people with chips on there shoulders...theres a good argument to be had integrated vs modular and if someone has something useful to add they ahoukd lay down the facts... there is little evidence of this negative rhetoric only opinions, most of which if not all of which are coming from people who haven’t set foot in these places...there seems to be just a hint of jealousy about, at least thats how it appears to me.
All I’m getting is lots of people commenting that its mad and the people must be stupid and there relying on mum and dad insinuating thats wrong, if the parents are willing to sacrifice to give there kids a dream shot in what they feel is a world renowned and appreciated by airline (employer) school whats wrong with that? There doing what they feel is best after weighing up the info that they almost certainly researched like everyone else . I think its harsh and unfair to run people down like many are doing here on these boards it seems like theres a lot of of people with chips on there shoulders...theres a good argument to be had integrated vs modular and if someone has something useful to add they ahoukd lay down the facts... there is little evidence of this negative rhetoric only opinions, most of which if not all of which are coming from people who haven’t set foot in these places...there seems to be just a hint of jealousy about, at least thats how it appears to me.
As someone who has "set foot in these places" as a flying instructor for nine years at BAe Prestwick, I recognise what B61 is saying.
It is entirely a personal matter that an offspring persuades the parents to folk out £100k+ for a course.
For those bright determined children, it is a sound investment for the parents.
However, I came across quite a few customers who parents had more money than sense; some didn't make it to licence issue. Others did obtain a CPL/IR eventually but were unemployable. The training files would say it all both ground school and flying.
There might be cases of jealousy, but those without well off parents but are determined, and with a passion to fly, will go down the modular route and succeed.
Get your class one medical and start the training. It might stop you from making a number of ill informed comments. Often speculation, and somewhat wide of the mark.
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Simply put there seems to be a lot of slander floating about these message boards. Parkfell your posts have been informative and eloquent, which makes sense given your background...and i thank you for them or anyone else doing similar, my comment wasn't so much narrowing in on people in this thread but a broad comment relating to the message board public. I apologise if anyone has been offended it was not my intention, particularly if they don't fall into the 'jealous/malicious' category 
But, to be devils advocate... You're putting it down to finances, which means you could either spend the 40k or not spend it (seemingly you have the option some how?!). If you take a modular route and get your 'dream' job even a year later (as opposed to perhaps an MPL or whatnot), you've earnt £140k less in your career meaning the 'savings' had been bad maths (ignoring those on a hedge fund managers salary during the intervening year).
You're right though, I'm an easyjet captain who notices no difference in the quality of cadets coming from modular vs those from intergrated schools. For the most part, the 'quality' argument is a load of corporate guff. Although the modular guys are usually a little more down to earth, but that's probably mostly related to age and non-flying life experience. But ask these modular schools what the 1 year sucess rate of graduates is, as opposed to the story of that one 'recent' graduate who got into British Airways straight away as a A350 base training captain. I don't know if job rates are lower or higher than the big 2 intergrated schools, but i'd imagine it's got to be considerably lower.
I've been paying attention to this school choice debate recently as family member is about to start training, looking mostly at L3/CAE. Personally, I don't think (if you're British), there has been a worse time to start training in the last 10 years, but despite my advice, i think they're going to go for it. I assume you're not going into it straight away, but surely you should wait for Brexit to be even vaguely sorted before you jump on any courses? A British Passport has never looked more useless!
One last aside, i have flown with a number of modular guys who did the CTC AQC (JOC/MCC) and the small premium on that course over a JOC/MCC elsewhere was worth it as they got Airbus jobs almost immediately, but timing is everything, don't forget that is rule 1! Now, i'm afraid, the timing is crap!
You're right though, I'm an easyjet captain who notices no difference in the quality of cadets coming from modular vs those from intergrated schools. For the most part, the 'quality' argument is a load of corporate guff. Although the modular guys are usually a little more down to earth, but that's probably mostly related to age and non-flying life experience. But ask these modular schools what the 1 year sucess rate of graduates is, as opposed to the story of that one 'recent' graduate who got into British Airways straight away as a A350 base training captain. I don't know if job rates are lower or higher than the big 2 intergrated schools, but i'd imagine it's got to be considerably lower.
I've been paying attention to this school choice debate recently as family member is about to start training, looking mostly at L3/CAE. Personally, I don't think (if you're British), there has been a worse time to start training in the last 10 years, but despite my advice, i think they're going to go for it. I assume you're not going into it straight away, but surely you should wait for Brexit to be even vaguely sorted before you jump on any courses? A British Passport has never looked more useless!
One last aside, i have flown with a number of modular guys who did the CTC AQC (JOC/MCC) and the small premium on that course over a JOC/MCC elsewhere was worth it as they got Airbus jobs almost immediately, but timing is everything, don't forget that is rule 1! Now, i'm afraid, the timing is crap!
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Well said, and for me personally this is how i'm seeing it (mod vs integ). With regard to timing, in my opinion it's all a bit of a gamble, the training takes 18 months or more, and at great financial and time cost regardless of route, it's hard to predict the economic situation by then. Brexit is very concerning and I do wonder how airlines like easyjet that operate within europe will continue to function, I honestly don’t know enough on the legalities and arrangements to know...few expert in the field seem to... although logic tells me the aviation industry like many others is far far too valuable to both the EU and the UK economies for them not to sort out an agreement, regardless of whether theres a deal or not. Personally I think there will be one at the closing bell... if however the worst comes to the worst and they really all are as stupid and incompetent as the past few years actions have suggested we area 'all' in trouble, no doubt, however even then it would simply have to be sorted, theres too much at stake for everyone involved, the damage on the economy is already apparent from where I’m sitting, many business are quiet and personally from what I'm seeing we are already in recession territory and have been for most of the year, despite economic statistics suggesting we are not... the economy is massively mood based... if a sensible deal is announced things will take a sharp uptick... if not regardless a downturn can only last so long... and rather amusingly many still do find the cash for a cheap getaway with a low cost airline. just hope regulations and political policies don’t ruin it.
giggitygiggity, maybe you can shed some light on how things legally could operate in terms of freedom of airlines operating abroad... how well can you remember your air law?
giggitygiggity, maybe you can shed some light on how things legally could operate in terms of freedom of airlines operating abroad... how well can you remember your air law?
But, to be devils advocate... You're putting it down to finances, which means you could either spend the 40k or not spend it (seemingly you have the option some how?!). If you take a modular route and get your 'dream' job even a year later (as opposed to perhaps an MPL or whatnot), you've earnt £140k less in your career meaning the 'savings' had been bad maths (ignoring those on a hedge fund managers salary during the intervening year).
You're right though, I'm an easyjet captain who notices no difference in the quality of cadets coming from modular vs those from intergrated schools. For the most part, the 'quality' argument is a load of corporate guff. Although the modular guys are usually a little more down to earth, but that's probably mostly related to age and non-flying life experience. But ask these modular schools what the 1 year sucess rate of graduates is, as opposed to the story of that one 'recent' graduate who got into British Airways straight away as a A350 base training captain. I don't know if job rates are lower or higher than the big 2 intergrated schools, but i'd imagine it's got to be considerably lower.
I've been paying attention to this school choice debate recently as family member is about to start training, looking mostly at L3/CAE. Personally, I don't think (if you're British), there has been a worse time to start training in the last 10 years, but despite my advice, i think they're going to go for it. I assume you're not going into it straight away, but surely you should wait for Brexit to be even vaguely sorted before you jump on any courses? A British Passport has never looked more useless!
One last aside, i have flown with a number of modular guys who did the CTC AQC (JOC/MCC) and the small premium on that course over a JOC/MCC elsewhere was worth it as they got Airbus jobs almost immediately, but timing is everything, don't forget that is rule 1! Now, i'm afraid, the timing is crap!
You're right though, I'm an easyjet captain who notices no difference in the quality of cadets coming from modular vs those from intergrated schools. For the most part, the 'quality' argument is a load of corporate guff. Although the modular guys are usually a little more down to earth, but that's probably mostly related to age and non-flying life experience. But ask these modular schools what the 1 year sucess rate of graduates is, as opposed to the story of that one 'recent' graduate who got into British Airways straight away as a A350 base training captain. I don't know if job rates are lower or higher than the big 2 intergrated schools, but i'd imagine it's got to be considerably lower.
I've been paying attention to this school choice debate recently as family member is about to start training, looking mostly at L3/CAE. Personally, I don't think (if you're British), there has been a worse time to start training in the last 10 years, but despite my advice, i think they're going to go for it. I assume you're not going into it straight away, but surely you should wait for Brexit to be even vaguely sorted before you jump on any courses? A British Passport has never looked more useless!
One last aside, i have flown with a number of modular guys who did the CTC AQC (JOC/MCC) and the small premium on that course over a JOC/MCC elsewhere was worth it as they got Airbus jobs almost immediately, but timing is everything, don't forget that is rule 1! Now, i'm afraid, the timing is crap!
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In my opinion you've got to be brave to start training at all today, the market isn't in a good place with airlines going bankrupt left right and centre and the global economy is very fragile right now with numerous things ready to go off any moment. The aviation industry in particular is extremely susceptible to market downturns. As a new graduate you will feel it more than anyone and if you're -100k in debt well you bloody better have a plan b that's recession proof too.
Anyway putting that part of it all aside, going to train at one of these super cadet schools isn't something advisable. You see I myself a few yrs back was only focused on these schools, they had managed to convince me that only their way was 'the' proper way, anything else was sub standard, inferior. They in every sense 'were' aviation for me, or at least my ticket into it. This is the power of their marketing and it's no doubt having the same effect on you.
Fast forward a few years, i ended up going to another school, spending less than half the price and found a job less than 2 weeks after graduating - all expenses paid type rating. Funny enough the type rating is in CAE at one of their european centres and i see daily the guys doing the ground school on their ATPL programme. There is 100% an air of arrogance about them, a bunch only started and within 2 days they were swanning about with their stripes and sunglasses inside the building giving an impression of 'I am the s***' to every one they passed and ignored. These are the guys these schools create, there is a psychology behind paying more for something and thinking it has a whole lot more value just because you paid more for it. These guys were absolutely ripped off in what they're paying for their course, but because it cost them so much they behave like they're the best student pilots right now in Europe and no one is fit to even tie their laces. Paying more for a product does not mean it's worth more or that you're any better of a person for buying it.
There's something funny about seeing guys who are paying 135k to go get paid 2k a month from vueling doing a full 95 block hrs after training, funny because these guys behave like tom cruise on a movie set ... you would literally be paid more in mcdonalds, it's embarrassing.
Again though, these are victims of psychology, they paid top dollar so therefore they must be top students.
Trust me, if you knew what the real costs of providing flight training were you wouldn't even bother picking up one of the brochures to these places, you'd be too disgusted by their greed. This is another thing i was blind to years back, having actually been through all the training I left with one conclusion - it does not cost 100k, nothing near that. Anyone paying anything above about 50 or 60k is simply lining the pockets of the school. Being a pilot is great, but let's not lose all sanity in becoming one. There are still other sensible methods.
If you fancy being totally ripped off then go to one of these schools, if not then go at it the modular way or go for a decent integrated course in which you aren't going to be taken as a cash cow. 80 - 100k is a lot, the trouble is most of these guys have never worked so they don't quite appreciate just how much it is - i was guilty of it too but thankfully destiny took me down another path that saved me the guts of 60k!
Anyway putting that part of it all aside, going to train at one of these super cadet schools isn't something advisable. You see I myself a few yrs back was only focused on these schools, they had managed to convince me that only their way was 'the' proper way, anything else was sub standard, inferior. They in every sense 'were' aviation for me, or at least my ticket into it. This is the power of their marketing and it's no doubt having the same effect on you.
Fast forward a few years, i ended up going to another school, spending less than half the price and found a job less than 2 weeks after graduating - all expenses paid type rating. Funny enough the type rating is in CAE at one of their european centres and i see daily the guys doing the ground school on their ATPL programme. There is 100% an air of arrogance about them, a bunch only started and within 2 days they were swanning about with their stripes and sunglasses inside the building giving an impression of 'I am the s***' to every one they passed and ignored. These are the guys these schools create, there is a psychology behind paying more for something and thinking it has a whole lot more value just because you paid more for it. These guys were absolutely ripped off in what they're paying for their course, but because it cost them so much they behave like they're the best student pilots right now in Europe and no one is fit to even tie their laces. Paying more for a product does not mean it's worth more or that you're any better of a person for buying it.
There's something funny about seeing guys who are paying 135k to go get paid 2k a month from vueling doing a full 95 block hrs after training, funny because these guys behave like tom cruise on a movie set ... you would literally be paid more in mcdonalds, it's embarrassing.
Again though, these are victims of psychology, they paid top dollar so therefore they must be top students.
Trust me, if you knew what the real costs of providing flight training were you wouldn't even bother picking up one of the brochures to these places, you'd be too disgusted by their greed. This is another thing i was blind to years back, having actually been through all the training I left with one conclusion - it does not cost 100k, nothing near that. Anyone paying anything above about 50 or 60k is simply lining the pockets of the school. Being a pilot is great, but let's not lose all sanity in becoming one. There are still other sensible methods.
If you fancy being totally ripped off then go to one of these schools, if not then go at it the modular way or go for a decent integrated course in which you aren't going to be taken as a cash cow. 80 - 100k is a lot, the trouble is most of these guys have never worked so they don't quite appreciate just how much it is - i was guilty of it too but thankfully destiny took me down another path that saved me the guts of 60k!
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I don't know what the OP's prior background is, however if I would only go near an integrated course if one of the following criteria were met:
1. An airline was paying for it.
2. If finances were not a problem, I'd consider a self-funded mentored programme with an airline in a strong financial position.
Bear in mind that with (2) there is often a clause in the contract to the effect of "so long as the cadet meets the required performance and there are positions available". Airlines running MPL courses can and will dump people, who picks up the £100k+ tab I'm not totally sure. To pick up where the previous poster left on cost, a fairly well-known airline on the continent was reported to have set up their own training school because the cost of training they reckoned was £50/60k, not double that. The airline in question has run a semi-sponsored programme though you need to be fluent in three languages to apply.
With the industry being uncertain, modular gives you the advantage of changing your pace, if there's lots of recruitment you can speed up, if it's slow you can sit on a PPL for a while whilst gaining relevant experience (and cash) elsewhere.
I don't know so much about CAE but I know people who went to L-3 who are being "stood down" for the time being and/or sent to other training schools (which incidentally provide good modular courses) to complete their training.
1. An airline was paying for it.
2. If finances were not a problem, I'd consider a self-funded mentored programme with an airline in a strong financial position.
Bear in mind that with (2) there is often a clause in the contract to the effect of "so long as the cadet meets the required performance and there are positions available". Airlines running MPL courses can and will dump people, who picks up the £100k+ tab I'm not totally sure. To pick up where the previous poster left on cost, a fairly well-known airline on the continent was reported to have set up their own training school because the cost of training they reckoned was £50/60k, not double that. The airline in question has run a semi-sponsored programme though you need to be fluent in three languages to apply.
With the industry being uncertain, modular gives you the advantage of changing your pace, if there's lots of recruitment you can speed up, if it's slow you can sit on a PPL for a while whilst gaining relevant experience (and cash) elsewhere.
I don't know so much about CAE but I know people who went to L-3 who are being "stood down" for the time being and/or sent to other training schools (which incidentally provide good modular courses) to complete their training.
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Again some great responses thank you, unfortunately I only speak english so whoever that operator is, it's a non starter 
My concern with the MPL course is this, what if for arguments sake you don't quite reach the exam grade they need or fail a practical test, they go bust or simply decide there not hiring for whatever reason after all? At least with a white tail route I should have my f/ATPL which can be used with any operator that can accept low hour pilots... or am I mistaken?
Timing wise its all a big gamble right now I'm aware the industry is very cyclical and right now the world and this country in particular is volatile, however I'm 31 yo and currently find myself in a situation where I can dedicate the time to doing this, I fear if I wait around a few more years I may miss opportunities and find myself on a different life path and possibly on the wrong side of 30 approaching 40, then the question arises is it still viable. One can't be guaranteed a medical as we age. For me this career is a lifelong ambition, there is nothing I want to achieve more right now, and I feel I'm fast approaching a bit of a now or never scenario.
Officer Kite, has summed up my situation and feeling’s perfectly, world economic reasons aside I'm really thinking go with the biggest most recognised players to ensure the most successful outcome, I somewhat can stomach the high costs if I'm landed (forgive the pun) in employment rather quickly, and therefore recuperating the costs and fulfilling the dream all whilst building hours in the air... I'm scared of doing the modular route to try and save £30 or £40k which of course is a huge amount of money, only to find that I've made a net loss as it's taken me longer to gain employment or worse, I'm still sat on the shelf. I of course realise that could happen either way if there are no jobs about. My hope and feeling is that if there is a downturn its somewhat over and done by the time I've got my license or it simply doesn't end up being that bad or happening at all...unfortunately we cant really predict this if I was able to I'd be better off buying stocks and shares and buy my own airline
It's all such a mind field and a huge decision with great financial loss if it all goes wrong, money that simply cannot be easily earned.
My concern with the MPL course is this, what if for arguments sake you don't quite reach the exam grade they need or fail a practical test, they go bust or simply decide there not hiring for whatever reason after all? At least with a white tail route I should have my f/ATPL which can be used with any operator that can accept low hour pilots... or am I mistaken?
Timing wise its all a big gamble right now I'm aware the industry is very cyclical and right now the world and this country in particular is volatile, however I'm 31 yo and currently find myself in a situation where I can dedicate the time to doing this, I fear if I wait around a few more years I may miss opportunities and find myself on a different life path and possibly on the wrong side of 30 approaching 40, then the question arises is it still viable. One can't be guaranteed a medical as we age. For me this career is a lifelong ambition, there is nothing I want to achieve more right now, and I feel I'm fast approaching a bit of a now or never scenario.
Officer Kite, has summed up my situation and feeling’s perfectly, world economic reasons aside I'm really thinking go with the biggest most recognised players to ensure the most successful outcome, I somewhat can stomach the high costs if I'm landed (forgive the pun) in employment rather quickly, and therefore recuperating the costs and fulfilling the dream all whilst building hours in the air... I'm scared of doing the modular route to try and save £30 or £40k which of course is a huge amount of money, only to find that I've made a net loss as it's taken me longer to gain employment or worse, I'm still sat on the shelf. I of course realise that could happen either way if there are no jobs about. My hope and feeling is that if there is a downturn its somewhat over and done by the time I've got my license or it simply doesn't end up being that bad or happening at all...unfortunately we cant really predict this if I was able to I'd be better off buying stocks and shares and buy my own airline
It's all such a mind field and a huge decision with great financial loss if it all goes wrong, money that simply cannot be easily earned.
Last edited by sms8; 5th Sep 2019 at 16:14.
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Go with the biggest players to ensure the most successful outcome? Much has been said here already about the 'biggest players' and their ambitious marketing based on faded glory and past reputation - the suggestion that size equates to quality is not the case at all any more as budgets have been cut to the bone by successive owners whilst charges have increased and standards eroded; I was told that one of the mentioned no longer offers F2F pre-flight briefings, leading to instructors walking off the job in disgust.
What I would say in favour of integrated is that despite the cost, one important difference is that the entire process is managed, leaving the student to focus on training within an established timeframe. Modular demands a better understanding of the environment and frankly takes more effort and dedication unless you are lucky and find an ATO able to accommodate all of the modules (PPL to APS). Surprisingly, there are many integrated students who have absolutely no discernible drive to get through the course without spoon-feeding and little appreciation of what lies ahead or where they are going.
I am inclined to agree with B61's assertion that this thread is really an issue of confirmation bias as the OP is apparently planning to attend selection at CAE later in the year according to another thread. I recommend heeding the helpful suggestion of obtaining a Class 1 prior to parting with any money to an ATO, although I would also agree that the industry is due a downturn following perhaps the longest period of sustained growth and profitability in decades. I personally know a couple of former 'big school' graduates who have struggled to find flying jobs following completion of training in 2012 during the last downturn. Employers often require recent experience as well as currency, neither of which are easy to maintain when there are few jobs around.
What I would say in favour of integrated is that despite the cost, one important difference is that the entire process is managed, leaving the student to focus on training within an established timeframe. Modular demands a better understanding of the environment and frankly takes more effort and dedication unless you are lucky and find an ATO able to accommodate all of the modules (PPL to APS). Surprisingly, there are many integrated students who have absolutely no discernible drive to get through the course without spoon-feeding and little appreciation of what lies ahead or where they are going.
I am inclined to agree with B61's assertion that this thread is really an issue of confirmation bias as the OP is apparently planning to attend selection at CAE later in the year according to another thread. I recommend heeding the helpful suggestion of obtaining a Class 1 prior to parting with any money to an ATO, although I would also agree that the industry is due a downturn following perhaps the longest period of sustained growth and profitability in decades. I personally know a couple of former 'big school' graduates who have struggled to find flying jobs following completion of training in 2012 during the last downturn. Employers often require recent experience as well as currency, neither of which are easy to maintain when there are few jobs around.
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As things stand I'm listening to all sensible posts, and have indeed already booked one of the first assessments and will see where that takes me, what they say and how I feel about everything at the time...nothing is set in stone yet for many reasons there are still many possible outcomes at this stage.
And yes I will be taking my medical at the end of the year also...and obviously this is essential before parting with any significant sums of money.
And yes I will be taking my medical at the end of the year also...and obviously this is essential before parting with any significant sums of money.
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thanks, nicely presented website nice blurb, but no cheaper than CAE or L3 which I think are more recognised by operators? bookmarked none the less just incase.