50% of applicants aren't employable....
It makes one cry for the old BCPL + instructing days....
Separate the wheat from the chaff.
When did this whole self-sponsored malarkey start anyway, as far as I recall in the 90's there were no self-sponsored on the integrated courses, all of them were airline sponsored, or does my memory fail me?
Separate the wheat from the chaff.
When did this whole self-sponsored malarkey start anyway, as far as I recall in the 90's there were no self-sponsored on the integrated courses, all of them were airline sponsored, or does my memory fail me?
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In the early '90s there were a few at AST.
One was self-funded by the proceeds of a divorce. She passed without too much trouble, though one unkind instructor did suggest that she'd never get hurt in an a crash as she was always so far behind the aeroplane.
One was the son of an immensely wealthy North African. He had no aptitude whatsoever and totally lacked any ability to differentiate left from right or East from West. Soloed after about 50 hours. Phoned his instructor from ABZ after his first solo cross-country landing, saying in a plaintive voice: "Mr ****, my aeroplane, she is on her back". After 150 hours instruction on the PPL IMC Rating course without any significant progress, CFI eventually broke the news to rich and munificent daddy that as long as H***** has got a hole in his arse, he'll never be a pilot. AST folded not long after losing that source of revenue. The really scary thing is that he went on to Medical School. As a pilot, he could kill at most four or five hundred people. As a doctor....
One was self-funded by the proceeds of a divorce. She passed without too much trouble, though one unkind instructor did suggest that she'd never get hurt in an a crash as she was always so far behind the aeroplane.
One was the son of an immensely wealthy North African. He had no aptitude whatsoever and totally lacked any ability to differentiate left from right or East from West. Soloed after about 50 hours. Phoned his instructor from ABZ after his first solo cross-country landing, saying in a plaintive voice: "Mr ****, my aeroplane, she is on her back". After 150 hours instruction on the PPL IMC Rating course without any significant progress, CFI eventually broke the news to rich and munificent daddy that as long as H***** has got a hole in his arse, he'll never be a pilot. AST folded not long after losing that source of revenue. The really scary thing is that he went on to Medical School. As a pilot, he could kill at most four or five hundred people. As a doctor....
TBH Parkfell I don't think it is necessarily a standard deviation of the students.
A lot of it is hugely influenced by quality of instruction. The flight training industry is largely inhabited by self selected instructors. Commercial considerations currently preclude most organisations from having a comprehensive standardisation effort.
I keep encountering students who aren't stupid and are trainable but who have massive gaps in knowledge. Or worst of all, have been told that what they are learning is "90% bullcrap".
And when you get a student who has just passed an IR but doesn't have a scan that includes heading, or doesn't know which way to turn to track an RMI, or who never seems to consider wind and drift, then there is something seriously wrong with the system.
A lot of it is hugely influenced by quality of instruction. The flight training industry is largely inhabited by self selected instructors. Commercial considerations currently preclude most organisations from having a comprehensive standardisation effort.
I keep encountering students who aren't stupid and are trainable but who have massive gaps in knowledge. Or worst of all, have been told that what they are learning is "90% bullcrap".
And when you get a student who has just passed an IR but doesn't have a scan that includes heading, or doesn't know which way to turn to track an RMI, or who never seems to consider wind and drift, then there is something seriously wrong with the system.
No wonder the end results are tablet users and not much more.
de minimus non curat lex
Flash 8
I was a FI at BAe PIK in the 90's where only sponsored airline students trained.
That was until the impact of the first Gulf War in 1990 was felt. BA had an option to send students until 2004. They stopped sending new students in 1992 which was the time when self sponsored integrated students and modular customers first began to appear.
No aptitude testing, just the ability the fund the course. And surprise surprise, a mix bag appeared. Some were very talented aviators, others were not.
I did feel sorry for those who just scraped through after a number of attempts at various phases, but lacked the necessary ability ever to become a professional pilot.
The policy prior to 1992 for BA students was that first solo was to be achieved by 15 hours, otherwise a review board took place. Cathay students were allowed up to 20 hours. Quiet a few arrived having never driven a car !
Fail any of the five progress tests twice, and a chop ride would occur, by either STANDARDS, or a FLIGHT MANAGER. Uncle Brian would often be called upon for those worth saving.
QUALITY was the name of the game, as was competency based training.
This word COMPETENCY is now used in MPL training. Nothing really new, just a reinvention of a proven concept.
With beancounters in charge, money doesn't just talk, IT SHOUTS.
I was a FI at BAe PIK in the 90's where only sponsored airline students trained.
That was until the impact of the first Gulf War in 1990 was felt. BA had an option to send students until 2004. They stopped sending new students in 1992 which was the time when self sponsored integrated students and modular customers first began to appear.
No aptitude testing, just the ability the fund the course. And surprise surprise, a mix bag appeared. Some were very talented aviators, others were not.
I did feel sorry for those who just scraped through after a number of attempts at various phases, but lacked the necessary ability ever to become a professional pilot.
The policy prior to 1992 for BA students was that first solo was to be achieved by 15 hours, otherwise a review board took place. Cathay students were allowed up to 20 hours. Quiet a few arrived having never driven a car !
Fail any of the five progress tests twice, and a chop ride would occur, by either STANDARDS, or a FLIGHT MANAGER. Uncle Brian would often be called upon for those worth saving.
QUALITY was the name of the game, as was competency based training.
This word COMPETENCY is now used in MPL training. Nothing really new, just a reinvention of a proven concept.
With beancounters in charge, money doesn't just talk, IT SHOUTS.
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Lots of issues at play as usual. I’ll throw a few random views into the mix.
Most of us heavily criticised the MPL but what we fail to acknowledge is that a traditional IR/ME can for many people serve as negative training. Students are trained for a career where they'll be flying a 400+ KTS jet, yet 75% of the training is done on aircraft that move at 90-120kts, flying single pilot and where you are forgiven for lack of energy management and perception of speed/time.
The idea is that after 150 hours of this training they stick you inside a fixed base sim where someone equally detached from airline flying experience teaches you the principles of multi-crew operations. Many student pilots are exposed right here but it’s too late now. The skills are supposed to be transferrable to any aircraft – This is simply not true in my opinion.
Finally, any experienced Freelance TRE will secretly tell you that something like 2 out of the last 5 licenses they sign, they do so reluctantly. If they are also responsible for sim checks at screening, they would simply not be able to fill the two front seats of an airliner if they applied the expected standard. Most sim performances I’ve seen since I left a big UK airline have been shocking and left me wondering how some people could’ve made it this far. It’s the industry’s dirtiest secret that something like 30% of people flying commercial airliners probably shouldn’t be doing so.
Most of us heavily criticised the MPL but what we fail to acknowledge is that a traditional IR/ME can for many people serve as negative training. Students are trained for a career where they'll be flying a 400+ KTS jet, yet 75% of the training is done on aircraft that move at 90-120kts, flying single pilot and where you are forgiven for lack of energy management and perception of speed/time.
The idea is that after 150 hours of this training they stick you inside a fixed base sim where someone equally detached from airline flying experience teaches you the principles of multi-crew operations. Many student pilots are exposed right here but it’s too late now. The skills are supposed to be transferrable to any aircraft – This is simply not true in my opinion.
Finally, any experienced Freelance TRE will secretly tell you that something like 2 out of the last 5 licenses they sign, they do so reluctantly. If they are also responsible for sim checks at screening, they would simply not be able to fill the two front seats of an airliner if they applied the expected standard. Most sim performances I’ve seen since I left a big UK airline have been shocking and left me wondering how some people could’ve made it this far. It’s the industry’s dirtiest secret that something like 30% of people flying commercial airliners probably shouldn’t be doing so.
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If 50% of applicants are unemployable.
Then they need to change their interviewing criteria.
Why would any A320/B737 type operator even bother with 250 hour wonder kids.
When there are thousands of fully qualified and experienced people willing and able to do the job.
Anything short of a full ATPL is an injustice to the natural law of upward mobility.
It holds people back in favour of a select privileged few.
And ends up ruining it for everyone.
Imagine if you couldn’t afford an over priced pretentious school like L3?
That’d be like you couldn’t be in the cabinet unless you went to Eaton.
Oh, it is that way.
OK then, how about you couldn’t get into broadcasting without going to Cambridge.
Oh, that’s the case too.
Alright, getting into government without going to Oxford.
You get the point.
The system is rotten to the core.
But that’s exactly my point.
Look what a horrid mess the country has turned into.
Where people can’t see and say or even allowed to think the obvious.
In the 2017 pay section of this site.
A F/O flying a Jetstream 41 at Eastern Airways gets paid £21,495 a year for 750 hours
When they have been Captain for a year, they should be ready for a Jet job.
But their slot has been taken by a cadet.
Theses same cadets then think they’ll be alright making six figures in six years time.
£100,000 isn’t even close in my opinion.
But looking at what Alex (Ebeneza) Cruz has install for you.
That may be the new top end of the scale at IAG.
At Vueling A320 F/Os make €12,000 base + €10,000 flight (900 hours) = €24,000 a year.
It’s disgusting.
Pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
I blame the pools of white tailed doe’s and bucks for messing up the pilot gene pool, and turning it into a septic sewer.
Then they need to change their interviewing criteria.
Why would any A320/B737 type operator even bother with 250 hour wonder kids.
When there are thousands of fully qualified and experienced people willing and able to do the job.
Anything short of a full ATPL is an injustice to the natural law of upward mobility.
It holds people back in favour of a select privileged few.
And ends up ruining it for everyone.
Imagine if you couldn’t afford an over priced pretentious school like L3?
That’d be like you couldn’t be in the cabinet unless you went to Eaton.
Oh, it is that way.
OK then, how about you couldn’t get into broadcasting without going to Cambridge.
Oh, that’s the case too.
Alright, getting into government without going to Oxford.
You get the point.
The system is rotten to the core.
But that’s exactly my point.
Look what a horrid mess the country has turned into.
Where people can’t see and say or even allowed to think the obvious.
In the 2017 pay section of this site.
A F/O flying a Jetstream 41 at Eastern Airways gets paid £21,495 a year for 750 hours
When they have been Captain for a year, they should be ready for a Jet job.
But their slot has been taken by a cadet.
Theses same cadets then think they’ll be alright making six figures in six years time.
£100,000 isn’t even close in my opinion.
But looking at what Alex (Ebeneza) Cruz has install for you.
That may be the new top end of the scale at IAG.
At Vueling A320 F/Os make €12,000 base + €10,000 flight (900 hours) = €24,000 a year.
It’s disgusting.
Pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
I blame the pools of white tailed doe’s and bucks for messing up the pilot gene pool, and turning it into a septic sewer.
hum ho....the question of performance in sims and check-flights/exams has long fascinated me.
I am retired but when I was flying and some sort of test came up......I prepared with the idea simply that I should not give the examiner a clearcut reason to fail me.......the idea of an outstanding performance didn't enter into it.
I am retired but when I was flying and some sort of test came up......I prepared with the idea simply that I should not give the examiner a clearcut reason to fail me.......the idea of an outstanding performance didn't enter into it.
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You'd think it would be sensible for all of the UK-based airlines to group together and open their own integrated flight school to handle all of their cadet needs. Complete quality control from day one and much lower costs. I believe TUI Belgium reckoned it costs €60-70k to get someone from the street to the RHS now that their cadet scheme is on an in-house integrated course.
That way there would be very few unemployable trainees and probably a higher standard of training. I doubt it'd be quite like the days when they did circuits around Shannon in a real VC-10 (though I did hear somewhere that Swissair had even better training) but I imagine it'd be pretty good.
The only real barrier would be a lack of willingness amongst the airlines to finance it properly, though given the cost-cutting shenanigans at one or two places this could actually be quite a big problem.
That way there would be very few unemployable trainees and probably a higher standard of training. I doubt it'd be quite like the days when they did circuits around Shannon in a real VC-10 (though I did hear somewhere that Swissair had even better training) but I imagine it'd be pretty good.
The only real barrier would be a lack of willingness amongst the airlines to finance it properly, though given the cost-cutting shenanigans at one or two places this could actually be quite a big problem.
It really wouldn't cost a massive airline like Ryanair, which has no debt and huge profits, a lot of money to buy a hand full of PA28s, DA42s, a airfield, a hangar, a building and employ a few instructors. They already own the expensive training devices i.e. 737 sims. I think they will catch on eventually, especially if they intend to grow to 1000 a/c by 2030.
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As someone from an integrated school, I can sort of comprehend what's being said. I'm somewhat older than most integrated students, and had further education and a career before signing-up so (i'm not just saying it), but I'm very different to the typical integrated student.
In my experience, I would say 70% of the people I know are or were straight into flight training from school. I.e straight from A-Levels onto an integrated course, at age 18 or 19. Maybe 1 in 5 went to University, and then straight onto an integrated course. The biggest proportion of students are definitely those straight from sixth form or European equivalent into flight school, without further education or the experience of an actual proper job. For three quarters of the people I trained with, their first ever job interview would have been for an airline as a first or second officer.
The average age of an integrated course is very young. I would be interested to know what it actually is, but I was the third oldest on the course of twenty people at the age of 23, so that explains a lot. The majority were 19 as far as I can remember. "Unemployable" is not the word, but "limited life experience definitely" is.
In my experience, I would say 70% of the people I know are or were straight into flight training from school. I.e straight from A-Levels onto an integrated course, at age 18 or 19. Maybe 1 in 5 went to University, and then straight onto an integrated course. The biggest proportion of students are definitely those straight from sixth form or European equivalent into flight school, without further education or the experience of an actual proper job. For three quarters of the people I trained with, their first ever job interview would have been for an airline as a first or second officer.
The average age of an integrated course is very young. I would be interested to know what it actually is, but I was the third oldest on the course of twenty people at the age of 23, so that explains a lot. The majority were 19 as far as I can remember. "Unemployable" is not the word, but "limited life experience definitely" is.
I concur. I too was in another career before I picked up flying. Did slightly better than the average 19-22 year lot.
Same scenario where I come from.
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Funny enough just yesterday I was talking to 737 Capt with 25 years experience who has helped recruiting for 3x arilines in the UK and he said the exact same thing.
That 50% of applicants are unemployable FOR ANY JOB.
That 50% of applicants are unemployable FOR ANY JOB.
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Is it surprising that a major employer of newly qualified cadets finds half of whom apply unsuitable? If I think back, I was probably unsuitable but I got lucky. Even now in some things I’m not considered to be a fit and proper person as I have banned from Jet Blast. Not all of us can do what we want when we want.
Flying is is no different from any other job. Employers have their criteria and one of them is a Frozen ATPL. The more complicated, difficult to acquire and less tangible values that employers are looking for personal attributes. Flying schools do not develop these. This is why advice to hopefuls has consistently been ignore flying, go to university or get a trade, live a life and then go flying. The exceptions to this are this those who learn to fly with armed services because they will be getting plenty of life experience in the process.
If you think I’m wrong consider this. What rational person spends in the order of £130-£150,000 on the possibility they might end up with a job pushing buttons? Admittedly the view is good but what makes people want to go flying? I think the answer for far too many is the perceived status and respect of the job. As a result, too many of the wrong types of people apply and they, with the ones who need to grow up a bit, find it difficult to get a job. The latter stand a chance. The former might never get employed.
What is refreshing is that the attributes that make a good pilot are now starting to be publicly discussed. The ATPL is just one minor requirement for a job. The really important bits are hidden inside a person and are developed through life, not training and they cannot be purchased... fortunately.
PM
Flying is is no different from any other job. Employers have their criteria and one of them is a Frozen ATPL. The more complicated, difficult to acquire and less tangible values that employers are looking for personal attributes. Flying schools do not develop these. This is why advice to hopefuls has consistently been ignore flying, go to university or get a trade, live a life and then go flying. The exceptions to this are this those who learn to fly with armed services because they will be getting plenty of life experience in the process.
If you think I’m wrong consider this. What rational person spends in the order of £130-£150,000 on the possibility they might end up with a job pushing buttons? Admittedly the view is good but what makes people want to go flying? I think the answer for far too many is the perceived status and respect of the job. As a result, too many of the wrong types of people apply and they, with the ones who need to grow up a bit, find it difficult to get a job. The latter stand a chance. The former might never get employed.
What is refreshing is that the attributes that make a good pilot are now starting to be publicly discussed. The ATPL is just one minor requirement for a job. The really important bits are hidden inside a person and are developed through life, not training and they cannot be purchased... fortunately.
PM
