Which modular school to choose ?

[KayPam]

Ok for the theoretical ATPL

So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.

What do you mean by "in constant flux" ?

For the personnal rant : oh my god there it is !! The clash between the French idea of top education and the Anglosaxon (are you English? American?) idea of top education ! The first time I have the opportunity to fight it !

Self published books, in an academic/scientific context, written by your own teachers, are worthless.

Really, it depends on what you expect of them.
Sure, if you want to publish the best thesis of the academic year, master's degree books from a teacher that discovered the subject when he got his tenure will not be enough.
However if you just want a scientific job, they will be perfect.

There are no authorities in science. You are judged on the merits of your arguments. Nobody knows everything, nobody has up-to-date knowledge on everything. Nobody has time for that. That's why we let the academic community/market forces decide on what's good teaching material and what's not.

Basically, I'd sum it up by saying that the French dean want its students to know nothing about everything, whereas the Anglosaxon dean want its students to know everything about nothing.
Some knowledge of many domains vs highly specialised knowledge of only one domain
Subsequently, the French dean does not really care if the book is not up to date nor the best.

So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.

Would you like to see a scan of my degree ?
I attended one of 3 best engineering school in France. It is between 100th and 150th on QS ranking, the best one is Polytechnique which is ranked ~50 in QS ranking.
Note that this is despite the fact that the criteria of the QS ranking are not adapted at all for French engineering schools.

There is a reason you won't find many french universities in the yearly top 100 rankings.

The reason is the following :
QS ranking is based on research, and size, whereas French schools like to be small and very numerous, and like to educate engineers, not ph doctors (an engineering degree from ecole polytechnique is really the top scientific diploma you can get in France, it is far far better on the job market than having a Phd from a normal uni, even the best according to QS, which is UPMC)

When I was there, I was "specialized" in aerospace engineering, but had classes in many many domains, such as finance, economy, thermal engineering, statistics, algorithmics and programming, hell, even biology ! (among various others)
Inside my specialization, I also saw many domains, such as aero engineering, combustion, structures and solid mechanics, product lifecycle management, airplane design, etc..

All books used in our engineering schools (at least the top 3 and I can safely bet it's the same elsewhere in France) are written by our teachers.
The fact is we don't aim at being the very best in one very small domain. We aim at knowing many many domains, without being the best experts on any of these domains. Each and every course could allow us to become quite good at the subject, however, as you can imagine it, it is quite difficult to be good at many things. So only the top students (the ones that work the hardest) will be very good at many things. Other ones will just work more on things they like more.

And many French graduates from our engineering schools, despite having not studied the best books on the market, have stolen are stealing and will steal English graduates finance jobs in London

To finish with, I attended a top australian uni for 6 months (40-50 in QS ranking). Some of my comrades preferred other countries and one of my best mates joined Columbia.
Really, to us, the academic level, if we chose courses whose prerequisites we fulfilled, was a joke. Sorry to say it like that.
In France, we have this system where we work our asses off during two years, then there is a selective examination to join the top schools. So we know what it is to work hard (some of my mates worked up to 70 hours per week, I was between 45 and 50 hours)

In Australia, the dean told us that for each hour of class, we should work two hours at home. This could seem daunting, since a French guy would expect 20-30 weekly hours of class, so that would be 60-90 weekly hours of work !
But in fact, we only had 13 hours of class, including 2 hours of tutorial (where is the laughing smiley when you need it ?). I did not like the tutorials so I did not attend them. We had mandatory assignments so I had to work at home, but the mandatory assignments were all I did.
We were given 3 weeks without any class to revise !! I studied like 2 days before my exams, and passed them.
Not with flying colors, this would have required learning things up to an advanced level but with a slightly better mark than the university's average.

To me, this semester was a semester of holidays !

One interesting event is the following:
During the first lesson of class A, teacher A gave an assignment for the next week. This made up 10% of the final mark for the class. It was to write approx one page about a given scientific topic. I completely forgot about it. When I was asked to give it in, I almost panicked but decided to lie and tell I just had forgotten it at home. Teacher A told me that if I had not done it, I would get a 0% mark for this assignment. I told him I would just get out of class at 5, get my bus and be home by 5:30, then I could scan it and e-mail it by 5:40. In fact I lived a 10-minute walk away. I ran home. Worked the fastest of my whole life, and scanned it and sent it.

Of course, I did not get a shiny 10/10%, I got a slightly above average mark, 6.5.


I am very sorry if I sounded like an arrogant , however I believe that using strong, politically uncorrect words and not hiding behind euphemisms have helped my ideas to be very clear.

Edit :
The previous was for engineering. But let's talk about research : the Ecole Normale Superieure. That is the most elite education you can get if you want to become a researcher.
"Fun fact : All the french Fields medalists have studied, at undergrad level, at the Ecole normale supérieure in Paris which, alone, produced more medalists (still talking of undergrad) than all the universities in the Ivy League, Cambridge, Oxford and MIT ... combined."
You can read all in :
https://www.quora.com/Which-country-...ci?ref=fb_page

[paco]

You need to be aware that any books older than about a year will have the operations section seriously out of date (get EU Doc 965/2012).

At least 1500 new questions in previously unused parts of the learning objectives have been added since then, and 2000 existing ones tweaked.

300 euros is a lot for secondhand books.

[KayPam]

I will be buying the PDF version of the 2016 Jeppesen books.
I will just have them printed and voilà !!

This will work if the documents are not electronically protected.

[KayPam]

Originally Posted by paco

The Jeppesen ATPL(A) study material was created by Peters software and sunsequently bought by Boeing - heaven knows why. Alex mentioned it above as potentially being used by a school you may end up going to. if they do, you will need alternative reading material.

I have read the instruments chapter from peters software, and I am about to make my choice between JAA Jeppesen 2015 books or 2012 Oxford books.

Peters software is a catastrophy, the english sounds german, many things are unclear, and I've even found inconsistencies..

Is Jeppesen really from Peter's software ? The PDF version of my 2004 Jeppesen books seemed a bit better.

So it looks like I should choose the Oxford books ?
And maybe an updated version of some books (operations and air law are too old?) ?

Thanks !

[paco]

Jeppesen used to publish the Oxford books, and some of those authors have written some the pad pilot stuff available on ibooks.

It's a very incestuous industry

[KayPam]

So I should just go for the cheapest ? Id be a tad surprised if Oxford was no better than peters software...

[paco]

The old oxford books are way better. I'm not sure when the cutoff date was, but the 4th edition were probably best.

[KayPam]

I finally got my books, Oxford fifth edition, just over 6800 pages and 18 kg !

Definitely looks more serious than Peter's software ! I'll soon be able to confirm that for sure.

[paco]

There you go, didn't know there was a fifth edition!

[KayPam]

Cheapest vs most expensive training

Cheapest vs most expensive training : do they really provide better training ?

Hello
I have a very simple question.
Bartolini advertises 17500€ for CPL + MEIR
The same is 7k more at DFAS
The same is 50% more at a normal french or english school
The same is twice as much (or even a bit more) at CTC aviation.

Can one really say that there will be a noticeable difference in flying skills between students of all these different schools ?
Does is have any impact whatsoever on one's ability to find a job ?

I also have the same question, for MCC/JOC
MCC/JOC at the cheapest vs CTC/FTE : is the difference more noticeable ?

Could one argue about a school being at an optimum opportunities/price ratio ?

Thanks

[KayPam]

Actually simtech would be in the cheap category even though they may very well provide quality training.
Indeed, they advertise 4450€ whereas wings alliance will be 7500£

How much would cockpit4u be ?

I'm not convinced by the CPL on P2002 thingy at Bartolini
I would rather train entirely on the DA42 for 7k€ more i think.

CTC FTE and OAA will not accept everybody in their AQC, will they ?
So there would be a supplementary delay due to selection and then a risk of not being accepted into it... A shame knowing you're already paying more..

[mike172]

I phoned up CTC only a few weeks ago to ask this very question. I was told that I could complete my CPL MEIR externally and still be eligible to apply for their AQC should I so wish.

[Alex Whittingham]

There is some discussion here that suggests CTC have stopped supplying easyjet with pilots from the AQC and all are now going into a special hold pool. Candidates asking for their money back.

[Alex Whittingham]

Its still a good course

[KayPam]

I'm not paying twice as much to get a good course.
I might as well ask for a longer course at a cheaper FTO...

Would there be placement opportunities with FTE/Kura/any other provider ?

If I had to choose my modular school right now i'd choose DFAS, but no idea about the MCC/JOC afterwards..

[Dreamliner747]

Hello KayPam,

Have you been able to select a school since your last message?

I read all the thread and found it very interesting. I'm asking myself some of the same questions.

I failed ENAC's selection this year but I have all requirements to start the CPL/IRME and MCC/JOC.

[KayPam]

I had settled down for DFAS but my personal circumstances will probably prevent me from going there after all..
I will possibly have to train in an other way.

[KayPam]

Update one year later :

I started a few weeks ago my IR training, competency based, with an airclub and the nearest FTO.

This should give me an IR-SE by the end of may 2018.
From there, I will only need 25 to 30 hours in a DA-42 to get a CPL + IR-ME.

So right now I'm looking for a school who could provide me with just that.

All of this is because I have a new job that could provide me with very interesting opportunities in the future. However this job won't allow me taking several months off to train. Luckily, I know at least one school who can train me for the CPL + IR ME (IR SE to IR ME in 5 hours of training) in just 2 to 3 weeks.

What are the cheapest schools available ? Poland maybe ?
What are the most reputable schools that would allow to train just for CPL + 5 hours of IR SE to IR ME ?

Thank you

[Krautwald]

Originally Posted by Alex Whittingham

Their Head of Training, Andy O'Shea, consistently says in presentations that...irrespective of which 'selection' procedures candidates have been through before starting at their respective flight schools 50% are fundamentally unemployable.

Any thoughts or facts on which unemployability factors he/they refer to? What disqualifies people?

[Alex Whittingham]

You have to read Andy O'Shea's statement as "50% are fundamentally unemployable by Ryanair's standards" and there is no doubt that employment standards vary across the industry. Anyone who has ever seen Ryanair's training system in operation is likely to agree, however, that they are very good. They are not alone in that, but their support and attention to detail are impressive.

His point and mine would be that piloting is one of the few professions where you can gain the base qualification without any effective filtering. In the days where no attention was paid to CRM many pilots were hired that were completely unsuitable for working in a multi-crew cockpit by modern standards, the classic example would be the flight crew of the KLM aircraft in the Tenerife disaster, but many many lesser examples exist who haven't killed anybody yet. Ryanair and most modern airlines train to the ICAO competencies which are listed on page 65 and 66 of this IATA document. There are seven:

*Application of procedures
*Communication
*Aircraft flight path management - automatic
*Aircraft flight path management - manual
*Leadership and teamwork
*Problem solving and decision making
*Situation awareness
*Workload management

The fact that you hold a licence only directly relates to one of these, Aircraft flight path management - manual. Deficiencies in any of the other areas make you less likely to be hired. Button Push is correct in a way, many people already have these qualities, acquired in early life or in previous employment, but many do not, hence the high fail rate.

To some extent these competencies can be trained, and this is where the benefit of a good course at an ATO that understands these things kicks in. There is an evident problem, though, and that is that it costs considerably less to just train Bloggs to pass the flight test and, there being no economic incentive for flight schools to train properly, most do not.

I don't think that Bartolini would claim to do more than supply the CPL\IR training to a high standard and a reasonable cost. To the best of my knowledge they have no pre-selection and like most others do not train to the full set of competencies, they will train you well to get through the test. FTE and DFAS would have to be seen in the same light, high quality ATOs doing a job. Of course you can go elsewhere, there are ATOs that are rubbish, they won't schedule your training properly, the instructors don't care, there's a lack of lack of standardisation, poor maintenance standards, easy flight tests because of poor local examiners/lack of interest from the regulatory Authority, etc., etc.. The thing is that the poor ATOs are not measurably cheaper. If they were you could perhaps tolerate the poor service. I think the recommendations for CPL/IR ATOs have to be seen in that light, will they do the job you are paying them for, and do it well?