Student pilot union
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Student pilot union
Anyone else fancy setting up some sort of representative body for UK-JAA student pilots?
I came into aviation (PPL so far!) after being quite into student politics, I served as VP Representation of my students union, on the exec of the NPC (Nat'l Postgrad Council) and as an observer on the NUS Exec. Gone are the days of loony left politics, it's all sensible consumerist type stuff that students have issues with.
Anyhow so like most of us I'm finding issues with medical certification, costs, taxes, dodgy outfits, etc etc -- I've had a sniff around to see who represents my interests in all of this mess (mostly gov't created!) and didn't find very much! OK some pilot associations do have student membership but it's expensive and I don't see that they have much of a student perspective when lobbying gov't and regulators. I've also worked briefly at the House of Commons for an MP on the Transport brief and saw literally no communications lobbying politicians about the issues in UK aviation, just piles of glossy stuff from big business and environmentalists.
If others would also like to see something dedicated to student/wannabe pilots set up, to lobby, campaign, provide advice and formulate submissions to consultations, then we could discuss a plan and I know from experience it can be done, and become very effective!
At first thought my guess would be: heavily web-based; with individual affiliations only (as each flight school doesn't have a local student association); no fee to ensure a rapid mass membership; work done mostly by an elected committee, with oversight by a council made up of all members. Could have social, networking, and even safety functions aswell. Comments?
I came into aviation (PPL so far!) after being quite into student politics, I served as VP Representation of my students union, on the exec of the NPC (Nat'l Postgrad Council) and as an observer on the NUS Exec. Gone are the days of loony left politics, it's all sensible consumerist type stuff that students have issues with.
Anyhow so like most of us I'm finding issues with medical certification, costs, taxes, dodgy outfits, etc etc -- I've had a sniff around to see who represents my interests in all of this mess (mostly gov't created!) and didn't find very much! OK some pilot associations do have student membership but it's expensive and I don't see that they have much of a student perspective when lobbying gov't and regulators. I've also worked briefly at the House of Commons for an MP on the Transport brief and saw literally no communications lobbying politicians about the issues in UK aviation, just piles of glossy stuff from big business and environmentalists.
If others would also like to see something dedicated to student/wannabe pilots set up, to lobby, campaign, provide advice and formulate submissions to consultations, then we could discuss a plan and I know from experience it can be done, and become very effective!
At first thought my guess would be: heavily web-based; with individual affiliations only (as each flight school doesn't have a local student association); no fee to ensure a rapid mass membership; work done mostly by an elected committee, with oversight by a council made up of all members. Could have social, networking, and even safety functions aswell. Comments?
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Hi Carb,
Good idea me thinks. As a student ATPL I have seen some of the issues of training in this industry that would benefit from a collective student representation.
Would be glad to help you in this venture. Early days I know but I think it could be very advantageous for other wannabes on here to give the idea the nod too.
I know that once employed in the industry that unions can be frowned upon in some quarters but I cannot see that a union for student pilots could be viewed in any other way as constructive and a bonus for the industry. What do others think?
Contact me via email if you wish Carb.
VFE.
Good idea me thinks. As a student ATPL I have seen some of the issues of training in this industry that would benefit from a collective student representation.
Would be glad to help you in this venture. Early days I know but I think it could be very advantageous for other wannabes on here to give the idea the nod too.
I know that once employed in the industry that unions can be frowned upon in some quarters but I cannot see that a union for student pilots could be viewed in any other way as constructive and a bonus for the industry. What do others think?
Contact me via email if you wish Carb.
VFE.
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Student union cards -- well that'd need some funds! But yeah it'd be possible to issue wannabe ID cards, and even potentially possible to issue NUS cards -- several professional representative bodies for law and accountancy affiliate to NUS (I would not commend it though...!).
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Good idea - now BALPA no longer give free student associate membership (£24 since about 3 months ago) you may get some interest. I am no longer a student, but as a member of a groundschool staff if there is anything I can do to help let me know.
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Definition of student pilot?
Good good, that's a few of us on board already!
What should be the definition of "student pilot"? -- for the association to be a registered charity it would probably need to be strictly: anyone currently on a recognised course of UK JAA instruction... otherwise, it could be more flexible: anyone up to fATPL (or until employment in a flying job?) whether working, slowly building hours or actually in training/study, or, basically anyone who self-defines as a student pilot, thus including those who are between courses or whose training is stalled or not even started. Some rules on membership eligibility would be good for credibility though...
What should be the definition of "student pilot"? -- for the association to be a registered charity it would probably need to be strictly: anyone currently on a recognised course of UK JAA instruction... otherwise, it could be more flexible: anyone up to fATPL (or until employment in a flying job?) whether working, slowly building hours or actually in training/study, or, basically anyone who self-defines as a student pilot, thus including those who are between courses or whose training is stalled or not even started. Some rules on membership eligibility would be good for credibility though...
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Sounds like a worthwhile proposal to me. Perhaps criteria for membership should be anyone from just starting PPL to fATPL.
There must be lots of people out there who have no choice but to put up or shut up when it comes to issues as have been mentioned on this thread so far.
Perhaps causes that could be pursued are:
1) Having to pay for interviews/selection procedures.
2) The extortionate cost of fuel in the UK - perhaps some kind of tax relief for training flights.
3) Paying for license issues - it is free in the USA for the PPL, it costs £150 here. Is there a charge for license issue in other JAA members states? How does the cost of a medical/medical renewal in the UK compare with other JAA states?
Lets take the £150 for a PPL license for a start. What do you get for your money. A few scrawney bits of paper and an awfully coloured wallet to put them in. No useful leaflet on how to avoid killing yourself in the dangerous first 30 hours or so after getting your PPL, no advice on enhancements to your licence, (ie night or IMC).
Medical renewal - last year cost me £85 plus an afternoon of work and petrol costs, for the pleasure of urinating in a plastic cup and reading the letters at 20 feet. This is all in my humble opinion just money laundering.
Have a look at the "future of commercial aviation" post on the wannabe's forum. Some interesting stuff there that could be pursued.
Be warned though - if you wish to take on the powers that be, expect your political stance and sexual history to be investigated, allegedly.
There must be lots of people out there who have no choice but to put up or shut up when it comes to issues as have been mentioned on this thread so far.
Perhaps causes that could be pursued are:
1) Having to pay for interviews/selection procedures.
2) The extortionate cost of fuel in the UK - perhaps some kind of tax relief for training flights.
3) Paying for license issues - it is free in the USA for the PPL, it costs £150 here. Is there a charge for license issue in other JAA members states? How does the cost of a medical/medical renewal in the UK compare with other JAA states?
Lets take the £150 for a PPL license for a start. What do you get for your money. A few scrawney bits of paper and an awfully coloured wallet to put them in. No useful leaflet on how to avoid killing yourself in the dangerous first 30 hours or so after getting your PPL, no advice on enhancements to your licence, (ie night or IMC).
Medical renewal - last year cost me £85 plus an afternoon of work and petrol costs, for the pleasure of urinating in a plastic cup and reading the letters at 20 feet. This is all in my humble opinion just money laundering.
Have a look at the "future of commercial aviation" post on the wannabe's forum. Some interesting stuff there that could be pursued.
Be warned though - if you wish to take on the powers that be, expect your political stance and sexual history to be investigated, allegedly.
Last edited by timzsta; 11th Jun 2002 at 22:00.
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I would be interested in helping out if this plan got off the ground (excuse the pun). If it is to be heavily web based I would gladly help out with design and maintenance as I will have a good deal of spare time over the coming months, and it's always nice to be involved in a project...
Let me know if I can help....
MS
Let me know if I can help....
MS
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Membership categories is a good idea -- full membership perhaps to run over for the subsequent year after being on a course, so as not to be chucking out modular folk who have reasonable gaps between stages.
timzsta -- indeed, those issues and all the rest! Political flak no problem as we presumably aren't after any scalps.
All the well-informed stuff that people post in this forum is a huge untapped research resource for putting together briefing papers and picking up on particular winnable issues on which to lobby or campaign. The problem I see at the moment is we're all talking amongst ourselves, and not interfacing with the political and regulatory processes.
If individuals wrote in to their MPs that's a start but even better is establishing a credible "National Student Pilot Association" (working title?!) then, ta da, everything we agree on becomes "policy" and the representative view of "the student pilot lobby". We can send submissions to Gov't consultations which get proper consideration, get invited to give evidence to Select Committees, eventually maybe win a place on two on the CAA Board and so on.
Can also find independant-minded Peers, MPs and MEPs with an aviation interest to table questions, motions and hold debates for us.
Mike -- outstanding! I can provide free webhosting for the website and help out with the development aswell if need be. Need to think of a good domain name! Personally I think nspa.org.uk looks posh if that was a name we agreed on.
timzsta -- indeed, those issues and all the rest! Political flak no problem as we presumably aren't after any scalps.
All the well-informed stuff that people post in this forum is a huge untapped research resource for putting together briefing papers and picking up on particular winnable issues on which to lobby or campaign. The problem I see at the moment is we're all talking amongst ourselves, and not interfacing with the political and regulatory processes.
If individuals wrote in to their MPs that's a start but even better is establishing a credible "National Student Pilot Association" (working title?!) then, ta da, everything we agree on becomes "policy" and the representative view of "the student pilot lobby". We can send submissions to Gov't consultations which get proper consideration, get invited to give evidence to Select Committees, eventually maybe win a place on two on the CAA Board and so on.
Can also find independant-minded Peers, MPs and MEPs with an aviation interest to table questions, motions and hold debates for us.
Mike -- outstanding! I can provide free webhosting for the website and help out with the development aswell if need be. Need to think of a good domain name! Personally I think nspa.org.uk looks posh if that was a name we agreed on.
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On the subject of peers with aviation interest - how about inviting Lord Tebbit to be honorary president? He was once an airline pilot, so must have achieved his licence somehow.
I would talk to the IPA about this. They seem to be the natural body able to give advice. You won't actually be able to form a union legally. A charitable organisation maybe.
Good luck,
WWW
Good luck,
WWW
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Personally I think Lord Tebbit is cool but surely a bit of a turn off for some potential members! I tihnk he was a BOAC pilot and held office in BALPA, though, so worth involving, can see if he can lobby for us in the Lords. But there's actually quite a few middle of the road type politicians we could adopt. I was checking biogs of a few Tory MEPs for some other reason recently and found two keen pilots and one ex-cabin crew. I think also that Labour could be just as helpful as opposition politicians certainly in under-regulation, pilot welfare and CAA user-charges type issues if not taxation and over-regulation -- Glenda Jackson was a reasonably approachable Transport Minister and is now on the lose on the backbenches, and of course there's that independently minded lot on the Transport Select Committee!
Last edited by carb; 11th Jun 2002 at 23:12.
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WWW, thanks, what's the web address for IPA?
Can't form a trades union no, but as we probably don't want to strike or bargain that's cool! Should have used the word "association" really. As this falls outwith both Employment legislation and the 1994 Education Act, there's scope to adopt whatever type of organisation best suits resources -- a charity means compliance with red tape and publishing accounts but saves VAT, a private organisation is effortless and less restrictive, and probably best option for so long as there's little cashflow.
Can't form a trades union no, but as we probably don't want to strike or bargain that's cool! Should have used the word "association" really. As this falls outwith both Employment legislation and the 1994 Education Act, there's scope to adopt whatever type of organisation best suits resources -- a charity means compliance with red tape and publishing accounts but saves VAT, a private organisation is effortless and less restrictive, and probably best option for so long as there's little cashflow.
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Carb,
I think its a top idea and one I have been bashing around my friends for a while now, so count me in.
Issues ranging from extortionate initial exam costs to £50 a resit now.......where exactly does that money end up, because it certainly isn't on the invigilating staff or classroom air conditioning!
As for changing rules and shifting goal posts as they see fit, without any consultation or prior warning to the masses is just sly. (see Flight Instrustors forum on changing reval requirements!)
Each one of us have our own little bug bares, but many will overlap and these are the ones that we can all rally together for. Good luck and keep at it,
SR
I think its a top idea and one I have been bashing around my friends for a while now, so count me in.
Issues ranging from extortionate initial exam costs to £50 a resit now.......where exactly does that money end up, because it certainly isn't on the invigilating staff or classroom air conditioning!
As for changing rules and shifting goal posts as they see fit, without any consultation or prior warning to the masses is just sly. (see Flight Instrustors forum on changing reval requirements!)
Each one of us have our own little bug bares, but many will overlap and these are the ones that we can all rally together for. Good luck and keep at it,
SR
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Count me in!
Having just resigned from a stable job to focus on getting the groundschool out of the way I'm definitely interested.
However, does it mean that my fellow ex-Uni mates can now start hurling abuse at me for becoming 'an effing stooodent' again?
"Are you a stoodent?"
Paul Calfe - Quality!
MB
Having just resigned from a stable job to focus on getting the groundschool out of the way I'm definitely interested.
However, does it mean that my fellow ex-Uni mates can now start hurling abuse at me for becoming 'an effing stooodent' again?
"Are you a stoodent?"
Paul Calfe - Quality!
MB