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IR in Scotland or Poland

Old 13th Apr 2015, 17:12
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Question IR in Scotland or Poland

Hi all.

I'm close to completing my ATPL's and looking at what to do next. I want to get my CPL/IR/ME done this year. I found a school in Poland, Air Bartolini, who seem to have a very good reputation and their prices are extremely reasonable to say the least!

However it would be a lot easier for me to stay in the UK/Scotland as you don't need to worry about flights, I wouldn't have to rent a car etc... So I spoke with someone at ACS Perth (I've been there quite a few times and they all seem very friendly), and he told me that because of Scotland's horrible weather many airlines much prefer to hire people who did their IR here rather than in Spain for example. Is this true? Would I be better off doing my training here even considering the extra cost??

Cheers.
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Old 13th Apr 2015, 19:03
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What all junior bird men require is QUALITY training where ever they decide to go. You pay more than the cheapest possible. That is a given. Speak to people who have completed and have a job at the end of it.
QUALITY MCC/JOC is as critical. Ask about. Don't take the cheapest going. A complete waste of money apart from a tick in the box.
Your employer expects a sound junior bird man.
For the avoidance of doubt, BA train in Spain. So do Aer Lingus.

Little porkies being told..........

Best ever place was Prestwck when BAe trained pilots in the 1990s. That was QUALITY training.
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Old 13th Apr 2015, 21:19
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Hi, thanks for your thoughts. What I will say in response is that BA and other airlines may train in Spain, but you can't compare that to what I'm saying, since they would train THEIR pilots who start with them on an integrated course from scratch. So in other words I would imagine that they carefully craft and monitor their courses so that it doesn't really matter where they are being conducted.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 15:38
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Thumbs up from me for ACS. I did my CPL, Multi/IR there in the middle of winter. In holds at FL80 covered in ice will really sharpen up the skills. In terms of what it did to help me get a job, i finished my training Dec 13 and in the following year i had three interviews, one which landed me a UK based airline on a heavy passenger jet with no type rating costs. Take from that what you will.

I did my MCC with some people who hadn't trained in the UK. They were from Iceland, India and Poland and from the first sim session, you could tell that their skill levels were no where near those who trained in the UK. Obviously you get out of your training what you put in, but that only goes so far. It depends who is training you.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 15:58
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Sounds like you are very happy with your UK training, and it also sounds like it is worth the extra money. May I ask where you did your PPL? I did mine in Florida but if I could go back in time I would definitely stay in Britain. As for my ATPL I'm with BGS who are good and also highly respected so I think I made the right choice there

Thanks.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 19:10
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The first.........

BA did their own training at Hamble. They closed circa 1975.
Since then it has been outsourced to approved training organisations.

OXFORD, CTC & FTE.

The integrated training is standard issue. However the MCCJOC is tailored made with 11 exercises. Same number as other airline course students.

You are correct, they are carefully chosen. Not all succeed.
And yes, frequent course reports are prepared during the course.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 21:24
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I would go with Bartolini Air any day. I finished my training there not long ago. Lots of guys from there get airline jobs. Lots go to Ryanair.

And for the record I live in Scotland. I would chose Bartolini again and not think twice.

I did my MEP CPL MEIR there in the middle of winter in 6 weeks. Had to land during my IR skills test to clear ice off the wings after flying into unknown icing conditions. I highly doubt Scotland would have given me a better experience.

If you think they are crap because they are cheap, well you would be wrong. The UK is massively overpriced in terms of flight training to start with and it's cheap in Poland not because it's crap quality but because you don't pay VAT. All their planes are very new with glass cockpits.

All of my instructors were good and my IR instructor in particular had many thousands of hours of flying business jets, examining and other stuff.

You pay exactly what is advertised, everyone is super nice and helpful.

So if you think you will get better quality of training or better job prospects because you pay more than twice as much and do your training in the UK, I would say you are highly highly mislead.

There might be other places in eastern Europe to avoid but Bartolini is not one of them!

Hope that helps!

Last edited by Bearcat F8F; 17th Apr 2015 at 07:59.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 09:18
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Had to land during my IR skills test to beat ice off the wings and continue in proper winter IMC weather
In a Tecnam? Is it cleared for known ice?
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 15:31
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I did my PPL with ACS as well.

Had to land during my IR skills test to beat ice off the wings and continue in proper winter IMC weather.
Doesn't sound like a very well planned IFR flight. Why fly into known ice in an aircraft thats not fitted with de-ice equipment......
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 19:08
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IRT

If the aircraft is not approved for flying in known/forecast icing conditions and you enter cloud and ice appears.........then you need to question the competence of the aircraft commander.
Had this test been conducted in the UK with the CAA, then I would not be surprised if the candidate would have failed the flight test without turning a prop.
You have to question the QUALITY of the training were this to be true.

Simple Q : is the aircraft cleared to fly in icing conditions? Yes or No

Then if YES, is it cleared for LIGHT ICING and/or MODERATE ICING ?
Then consult the forecast,and receive actual reports if available.

Risking icing is VERY COURAGEOUS, when not approved

Last edited by parkfell; 19th Apr 2015 at 11:35. Reason: Syntax~
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 00:01
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Doesn't sound like a very well planned IFR flight. Why fly into known ice in an aircraft thats not fitted with de-ice equipment......
Icing conditions were not known. It wasn't clear until we started picking up some ice. And as I said, we landed to clear it off.

I can assure you they will cancel a flight at Bartolini if icing conditions are known and present.


P.S. Just want to add that flying knowingly into known icing conditions is ludicrous. I would never do that even if my examiner would have insisted. But I can see that the way I worded it initially it seemed like we were two dead men walking (or flying). That's not the case.

Bartolini is a good school. The only incident I've heard about them was a PPL student landing onto a closed grass runway at an uncontrolled airfield and getting the plane stuck in the mud. Otherwise I think their safety culture is absolutely fine. IFR flights absolutely do get canceled in winter because of icing.

Last edited by Bearcat F8F; 17th Apr 2015 at 08:09.
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 08:19
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Courageous decision

So from what you are saying, the light twin is NOT approved for icing conditions. Training in the summer with higher temperatures will still have days where icing is present below FL100.
As for winter training, it must prove somewhat frustrating with long periods of no flying with extensive cloud.
The exception might well be when a Siberian high pressure occurs. Gin clear days in winter can be quite stunning.

So you encounter icing (non forecasted) and quite rightly land. Sensible decision.

You then " beat ice off the wings and then continue......" !!!!!!!
You launch again into what is now KNOWN icing conditions in a machine not approved for icing? Have I got this right?

You describe this an "extreme experience".......far better than Scotland
You need to go and see a trick cyclist.......you have no comprehension as to what icing can do to flying machines.
As for any Examiner might ever insist on continuing...........I find this comment shows a total lack of understanding on your part.
I see you have now amended the post.....toned it down. The Spin Doctors at the FTO will be in a flat spin with your original post

Last edited by parkfell; 17th Apr 2015 at 14:34. Reason: Update following Spinning......
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 09:42
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Crikey, take it easy.

I said before that my initial wording was incorrect. I was merely trying to get across to the OP that flying in Poland can be challenging and you have to make good decisions in marginal conditions. I never said "far better than in Scotland" either.

Yes, we did continue but only after we waited for a while for conditions to improve, which they did. Otherwise why would we land in the first place only to continue in the same conditions??

I can see how my initial wording would have made it seem like it though which is why I changed it.

And yes, you can spend days on end not flying in winter. Some PPL students were there for a few months before I came! I was lucky with one of the warmest winters though.

You need to go and see a trick cyclist.......you have no comprehension as to what icing can do to flying machines.
I have a degree in aeronautical engineering. I believe I understand quite well the effects of contamination on aerofoils after blowing them through wind tunnels.

If you have any further concerns about the lack of quality training at Bartolini then I suggest you avoid flying with the following airlines which have ex-Bartolini students flying for them: Ryanair, easyJet, Wizzair, Condor, DHL, neos, Eurolet and others.
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 09:54
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Hi guys, thanks for all of your inputs! It's clear that there was a wee misunderstanding about the whole icing thing, and I'm sure there was no recklessness involved on the PIC's part... happens I guess! Besides, to be fair, I reckon that could just as well have happened in the UK.
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 10:48
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I totally 100% agree with what parkfell is saying.

You were extremely lucky to have the opportunity to land and clear the ice. What if you were flying over the Atlantic or the North pole. You can't just land. From my experience, IFR flying is all done in the planning stage. If you don't plan for ice, then you'll have a very hard time flying when you encounter it. For me, that clearly shows that the quality of instruction is well below par in Poland. You wouldn't get away with landing and beating off the ice in the UK. Ice levels and actions incase of encountering ice have to be planned for. If that was an exam in the UK, it would have been a straight fail. I don't understand why people would want to to their IR in an aircraft not equipped for icing. Tayside aviation have just bought a twin tencnam with no deice and i just can't get my head round it.

Also, i THINK someone commenting on this thread is a high placed CAA examiner who does IR tests. I would recommend you take advice given.

Back to the OP, go and see Allan Falconer at ACS, he'll give you all the info you require.

One last comment, having the attitude that
happens I guess
is the wrong attitude to have in aviation. doesn't happen. Bad planning happens.
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 11:10
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marcus1290,

I appreciate what you and what everyone else has said here. I have absolutely no intention in reckless flying especially when it comes to icing but what you are also suggesting is that no one in the UK ever picks up ice unintentionally due to superior planning compared to Poland. Sounds a little far fetched to me. Especially in the UK where the forecast can tell you sunny skies and you have hail in reality.

I am all up for extensive pre-flight planning but surely you have to appreciate that with these Tecnams to have a 100% chance of avoiding (unknown) icing conditions you will have to not fly at all a lot of the time. What's required is some extra thought in terms of contingencies. Which is why making a comparison of flying over the Atlantic ocean isn't really a good comparison. That is not the same as bumbling around an airport shooting some approaches. But I understand what you mean in terms of planning, as I said.

Bartolini have a Seneca V by the way which would still turn out cheaper than anything in the UK.

Last edited by Bearcat F8F; 17th Apr 2015 at 11:47.
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 13:21
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I stand by that comment, I'm afraid! Things do go wrong, no matter how well you have planned - it's how you deal with it that's important I would say. I think that's a pretty reasonable attitude to have.

And yes, Allan is the man to speak to I would agree. I know him quite well by now and have spoken with him (the point of this thread is actually to discuss something he said!) All I'm seeking is others' opinions.
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Old 17th Apr 2015, 14:27
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I am pleased to hear that graduates have found employment as first officers.
They are now flying aircraft which are cleared to fly in icing conditions. It is quite a quantum leap to go from light twin to Airbus and Boeing.
They will be taught all about icing both prior to engine start, and once airborne. Somewhat more complex than light twins approved for icing conditions.
Holdover times to name but one additional factor........

Wind tunnels are very useful........was part of your degree course specifically concerned with icing on various shapes?

I conducted the CAA approval icing trials on the TB20 many years ago using the TKS de icing system. That was a very interesting experience.

That together with flying in Scottish icing conditions for a number of years gives you a very healthy respect for what the elements can throw at you.

My abiding memory of my line training on the Shorts360 was being told " always have a bolt hole ". Sound advice given to me by an old hand.
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Old 21st Apr 2015, 08:37
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Well this has now turned into a thread about the Technam twin. This aircraft is operated by numerous FTO's around the world including Aero's in the UK which have trained a lot of people and are considered one of the good ones.

I have been reading the threads on here for years and people will always try to say the UK is the only place you will get quality training. It used to be the USA which was talked about as being inferior in the training. Then the schools in Spain started and suddenly all Spanish pilots were no good. Now the eastern European schools have started offering cheap courses it is these schools getting the same treatment.

Wake up guys, the UK is not the be all and end all for flight training. All foreign schools are not second class compared to the ones in Blighty. I agree that cost should not be the only factor in choosing a school but that works both ways. Just because you are paying over the odds doesn't guarantee quality either.

You need to remember these airliners flying into the UK are being flown by guys who have trained in all the places being derided on here. There are eastern European instructors in UK schools and English instructors in foreign schools.

People are very protective of the UK FTO industry on here and you can see why when here are lots of current and past UK instructors and examiners on here. People will also like to believe that the training they paid double for is some how better then the training the guy sat next to him with an identical piece of paper received for half the cost.

Somewhere like Bartolini is a prime example of a school that has many, many good reviews and happy ex students now flying for airlines around the world but is put down by people who have never trained there and never visited just because it offers a better deal than they may have received. We also have the huge marketing done by the big integrated schools (Ask yourself who is paying for the glossy brochure and those sales people).

In choosing a school go visit, talk to ex and current students, ignore the sales pitch and just take as irrelevant any of the talk about the UK producing skygods.

All the best.
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Old 21st Apr 2015, 08:56
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The acid test will be gaining employment irrespective of where you have trained.

To achieve this, usually a SIMULATOR assessment is made, and during the interview demonstrate a good technical knowledge amongst other qualities.

It all comes back to QUALITY training where ever that takes place.
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