type rating with expired IR?
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type rating with expired IR?
As far as I know it needs to be valid on the day the TR course starts (but not necessarily the course duration). I may be completely wrong and I'm sure it'll be pointed out quickly on here, that said that is what the voices in my head are telling me just now
Educated Hillbilly
Firstly be more specific,
For your first multi crew type you need a valid and current Single Pilot ME IR.
For additional / further multi crew type ratings it use to be the case that there was no requirement to hold a current IR (I know I completed my second type rating on the grounds of a previous multi crew rating with neither my MPA or SPA IR current). That however was under JAA rules according to that listed in LASORS. I haven't checked CAP 804 to see if the same applies under EASA.
For your first multi crew type you need a valid and current Single Pilot ME IR.
For additional / further multi crew type ratings it use to be the case that there was no requirement to hold a current IR (I know I completed my second type rating on the grounds of a previous multi crew rating with neither my MPA or SPA IR current). That however was under JAA rules according to that listed in LASORS. I haven't checked CAP 804 to see if the same applies under EASA.
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sorry for beeing unclear
So my type rating on SAAB2000 expired on 22.06.2013. together with my IR.Most probably i will have an oportunity to make new type rating on A320,so do I need my IR current?
So my type rating on SAAB2000 expired on 22.06.2013. together with my IR.Most probably i will have an oportunity to make new type rating on A320,so do I need my IR current?
Last edited by Quazimodo007; 12th Sep 2013 at 22:49.
Educated Hillbilly
From CAP804 the phraseology is as follows:
(f) Additional multi-pilot and single-pilot high performance complex aeroplane type ratings. An applicant for the issue of additional multi-pilot type ratings and single pilot high performance complex aeroplanes type ratings shall hold a multi-engine IR(A).
One assumes that the ME IR can be either a SPA IR or MPA IR.
Now does hold a ME IR(a) infer hold a current ME IR. I am not sure.
(f) Additional multi-pilot and single-pilot high performance complex aeroplane type ratings. An applicant for the issue of additional multi-pilot type ratings and single pilot high performance complex aeroplanes type ratings shall hold a multi-engine IR(A).
One assumes that the ME IR can be either a SPA IR or MPA IR.
Now does hold a ME IR(a) infer hold a current ME IR. I am not sure.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 13th Sep 2013 at 20:13.
Educated Hillbilly
sorry to be pedantic, but FerrypilotDK, you said the IR would be revalidated during the sim sessions, to be precise the type specific MPA IR is renewed / Revalidated / issued at the final LST.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 13th Sep 2013 at 21:09.
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Another_CFI
Unfortunately, I don't think that's correct (at least in UK). I don't have the EASA ref to hand but CAA Standards Doc 14 says (Section 8.4)
"An IR associated with a single pilot high performance complex aeroplane is type specific and does not automatically confer IR privileges in other-single pilot aeroplanes. However, credit may be available towards the IR section of a proficiency check in another type or class of single-pilot aeroplane."
There's a flowchart at the back that illustrates (!) what extra needs to be done to revalidate the generic SP IR but if it's lapsed (ie renewal rather than revalidation needed) then there's no credit and you have to do the full LPC.
Unfortunately, I don't think that's correct (at least in UK). I don't have the EASA ref to hand but CAA Standards Doc 14 says (Section 8.4)
"An IR associated with a single pilot high performance complex aeroplane is type specific and does not automatically confer IR privileges in other-single pilot aeroplanes. However, credit may be available towards the IR section of a proficiency check in another type or class of single-pilot aeroplane."
There's a flowchart at the back that illustrates (!) what extra needs to be done to revalidate the generic SP IR but if it's lapsed (ie renewal rather than revalidation needed) then there's no credit and you have to do the full LPC.
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Well all seems to be as clear as mud on this one! I'd appreciate some further input and clarity if anyone can provide it.
As portsharbourflyer pointed out, CAP 804 states that one needs to hold a multi-engine IR(A) in order to apply to add a multi-pilot rating, but like him I'm confused as to the difference, if there is one, between holding an IR and it being current.
A couple of times in the past I've both revalidated and added ratings without a current IR, but these new EASA rules may have ruled out that privilege. I see no reason whatsoever for an IR to be current when starting a new rating as it is done as part of the LST.
Clarity anyone?........please.
As portsharbourflyer pointed out, CAP 804 states that one needs to hold a multi-engine IR(A) in order to apply to add a multi-pilot rating, but like him I'm confused as to the difference, if there is one, between holding an IR and it being current.
A couple of times in the past I've both revalidated and added ratings without a current IR, but these new EASA rules may have ruled out that privilege. I see no reason whatsoever for an IR to be current when starting a new rating as it is done as part of the LST.
Clarity anyone?........please.
The term 'current' does not exist in EASAspeak - a rating or certificate is either valid or it isn't. If a rating is not valid then you do not 'hold' it and EASA requires that it is removed from the licence within 5 years. In the case of the UK, when ratings are removed they are recorded under 'Ratings Previouly Held' (which is not part of the licence). However, this is not an EASA requirement and may not be the case in other member states.
An applicant for a first MPA type rating course is required to hold a multi-engine IR(A) (FCL.720(d)(2)).
An applicant for the issue of a second or subsequent MPA type rating shall hold a multi-engine IR(A) (FCL.720(f)).
For a second or subsequent MPA type rating, therefore, you do not need to hold an MEIR to start the course but you do need to hold one when you apply for the rating. The IR will be revalidated/renewed on the specific MPA type during the course/skill test.
An applicant for a first MPA type rating course is required to hold a multi-engine IR(A) (FCL.720(d)(2)).
An applicant for the issue of a second or subsequent MPA type rating shall hold a multi-engine IR(A) (FCL.720(f)).
For a second or subsequent MPA type rating, therefore, you do not need to hold an MEIR to start the course but you do need to hold one when you apply for the rating. The IR will be revalidated/renewed on the specific MPA type during the course/skill test.
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BillieBob, I came to roughly a similar conclusion when reading CAP 804 last night in regard to the addition of a second or subsequent MPA rating, so thanks for confirming that. When the paperwork is sent off to have the rating added the IR will have, as a matter of course, being revalidated during the LST, so it will be current at the time of the MPA rating application.
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Second Multi-Pilot TR with expired first multi-pilot TR
Good afternoon,
I have just had a look on the CAA website to look up in CAP 804 to see what the current rules are regarding doing a second multi-pilot TR if your existing multi-pilot TR is expired.
QUOTE from the CAA website:
"CAP 804 covered UK requirements for pilot licensing and a guide to the new European Flight Crew Licensing requirements to April 2015. This edition remains available for reference only. A new and restructured Air Navigation Order came into force on 25 August 2016. Article references have completely changed and new EASA regulations have been developed since CAP 804 was last issued. In the light of these significant changes the need for a restructured and updated version of CAP 804 that reflects current UK law and EU regulations is currently being reviewed."
Under JAR it used to be that your second multi-pilot TR could be done with an expired multi-crew TR from another aircraft type (as RAFAT and BillieBob refer to above).
Does anyone know in which document I can find a concrete answer to this question?
Thank you
I have just had a look on the CAA website to look up in CAP 804 to see what the current rules are regarding doing a second multi-pilot TR if your existing multi-pilot TR is expired.
QUOTE from the CAA website:
"CAP 804 covered UK requirements for pilot licensing and a guide to the new European Flight Crew Licensing requirements to April 2015. This edition remains available for reference only. A new and restructured Air Navigation Order came into force on 25 August 2016. Article references have completely changed and new EASA regulations have been developed since CAP 804 was last issued. In the light of these significant changes the need for a restructured and updated version of CAP 804 that reflects current UK law and EU regulations is currently being reviewed."
Under JAR it used to be that your second multi-pilot TR could be done with an expired multi-crew TR from another aircraft type (as RAFAT and BillieBob refer to above).
Does anyone know in which document I can find a concrete answer to this question?
Thank you
The Part-FCL references that I gave above are still valid and the situation regarding second and subsequent type ratings remains unchanged.
CAP 804, like its predecessor, LASORS, is of limited use, being riddled with errors even when it is maintained up to date. It is always best to refer to the source document. These days, the CAA seems unable to keep up with its own gold-plating, let alone the actual regulations. That's what happens when you give control of aviation to someone who couldn't even run a railway.
CAP 804, like its predecessor, LASORS, is of limited use, being riddled with errors even when it is maintained up to date. It is always best to refer to the source document. These days, the CAA seems unable to keep up with its own gold-plating, let alone the actual regulations. That's what happens when you give control of aviation to someone who couldn't even run a railway.
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Thank you BillieBob,
Are you able to point me in the right direction w.r.t the source document. I had a look in www easa.europa.eu/regulations but could not find it.
Thanks again
Are you able to point me in the right direction w.r.t the source document. I had a look in www easa.europa.eu/regulations but could not find it.
Thanks again
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Thank you once again BillieBob,
I see the devil is still in the detail. Had a look at the document you refered to and it seems you are right. "Course" and "issue" are the key words. Let's hope the UK CAA sees it that way as well as the operator I am corresponding with in mainland Europe!
I see the devil is still in the detail. Had a look at the document you refered to and it seems you are right. "Course" and "issue" are the key words. Let's hope the UK CAA sees it that way as well as the operator I am corresponding with in mainland Europe!
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You are going to do an A320 Type Rating.
At the end of the Course the LST will incorporate the IR Check as part of the normal LST content.
When your Rating is eventually issued (after ZFT or Base Training, as appropriate) it will say "TYPE/IR" eg "A320/IR" .
It may also have appended "/LV", depending whether you were trained and checked on LVOs.
At the end of the Course the LST will incorporate the IR Check as part of the normal LST content.
When your Rating is eventually issued (after ZFT or Base Training, as appropriate) it will say "TYPE/IR" eg "A320/IR" .
It may also have appended "/LV", depending whether you were trained and checked on LVOs.