CTC or OAA?

[Buggington]

Hello

A bit of background first - I'm seventeen, currently at college doing A level Maths, Physics and Electronics. I'm currently working towards my NPPL, but unfortunately, due to college, it's going rather slower than I would like. Either way, flying is definitely what I want to do

I've looked around both CTC and Oxford's facilities, and was more impressed with CTC's as it stands, but due to CAE and Oxford merging they're upgrading their equipment and aircraft, so I suppose both companies will be on par with each other.

I'm still not entirely sure how the holding pool/post training employment works with each company. They seem to have quite different approaches to it and I'm trying to get my head around it, particularly Oxford's method.

After all that, I would be interested to hear of any opinions about either of these training schools, whether you've been through them, flown with anyone who's been through them or had any other experience with them.

Thanks in advance

[Morris542]

I've visited them and they all look great - good facilities combined with a positive first impression of the staff. They said what I wanted to hear (loads of pilots needed blah blah blah....) and ticked all the boxes.

However I haven't gone there.

I decided to go the modular route because it is better for me. In short I researched all my options, not the easy options that had the best advertising budget/techniques.

Essentially there is sooooo much more than just CTC vs OAA. Look into every option. Someone I know from uni is at OAA. He's paying close to £100000 for his training. I'm paying much less than that, I'm doing flying I want to do (tailwheel + aerobatics), I've got a job at the same time in the industry and at the end, we're getting the same qualification!!!

In short, research, research, research. This website is useful with loads of threads and other advice.

[Buggington]

Thanks for the response; without wishing to be rude, I've often been told that the modular route isn't as highly regarded by the airlines.

I've looked into the modular route, and if I was going to do the modular route, I would do it all in one go, almost like an integrated one I guess.

Maybe I need to go and look at a modular school - it strikes me that the hardest part of the employment is your first job to build hours.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your job in the industry?

Thanks again for the response

[Buggington]

More research seems to show that most people do the modular route for one of two reasons:

1. To train while continuing their current job
2. To do 'smaller' (probably not the right word) jobs than work for the big airlines.

Given that my aim is to become an airline pilot immediately, it would seem strange to do a modular course, which is generally more fragmented and less consistent than an integrated course, as someone pointed out on another thread here. While a new pilot with ~250 hrs in their log book is far from the ideal candidate for the position of FO, they are at least a blank canvas, who have been trained from the ground up (excuse the pun) to the airline's way of thinking.

Of course, this is all quite one sided here because I haven't considered the modular route too much yet, so I think I'm going to be visiting some modular places. I'm assuming that the CTC & OAA modular courses are too expensive and similar to their Integrated counterparts to consider a viable option? I would ask them about this, but I'm sure I would probably end up with them trying to persuade me to do their integrated course instead.

[go around flaps15]

The reality is that if you want the best possible chance of getting into an airline go with CTC. This year they have placed cadets at Easyjet(flexi crew),Monarch(permanent), Qatar Airways(permanent), Jetstar Pacific(Vietnam) in recent years(permanent),9 cadets with Thomson although I believe they will be doing their own thing from now on, Cathay Pacific 2nd officers(permanent) BA (future pilot program), and in recent years have had links with Jet2 and Flybe.

And before people jump down my neck I'm not associated with CTC.

Like it or not they are your best chance of getting into an airline provided you have decent training files and are eventually placed into their hold pool.

Ryanair take a lot of guys from Oxford but no official affiliation as far as I am aware. April 1st no more interviews for cadets(see website).

[Buggington]

Go around: Having done the modular route, would you say that those who did a CTC-esque integrated route had an easier time when trying to get employed?

[M1ghtyDuck]

Quick tip. Get a full PPL if you're going to get anything, don't mess about with an NPPL. A full PPL isn't much more cost or effort than an NPPL and is a lot more useful. Plus - if you do end up going with CTC, you need a full PPL to get any hours credited towards your training (and therefore get some money back).

Although to be honest, if you're going integrated, put the money you'd spend on a PPL towards the course - unless you're made of money.

[go around flaps15]

The point I'm trying to make is not that integrated is better than modular or vice versa. CTC have a hold pool. In that hold pool airlines take cadets. Majority of the cadets are placed, providing they have reached the required standard. This is unique to CTC. No other training school has this type of hold pool in the UK training market. In order to be in the hold pool you need to do an integrated course, and it has to be at CTC. Doing an integrated course on its own is great but if it isn't with the right training organisation i.e. they don't have any contacts you are on your own when you finish. That's the way it is at the moment. That's the way it was for me 5 years ago. I got relatively lucky because I had my own contacts before I started training. If you don't have any contacts and are embarking on this treacherous journey cold, my advice to you is if you want to ensure you that you have the best chance of securing airline placement upon completion, go with CTC.

[pilotchute]

CTC placement in Cathay?

Flaps,

Anyone who gets into Cathay do so by applying themselves. CTC has no sway with them at all. I don't think Qatar hire 250 hour guys either (they will if they are citizens of Qatar). I hate to say it but Jetstar Vietnam would be highly unlikely to take 250 hour non Vietnamese citizens either.

This is all rubbish spouted by CTC and OAA to try to convice you that they can get you a job. OAA's website claims it one of its former students is now a pilot at Lion Air! Funny cause Lion Air is a pure pay 2 fly job.

Airlines in the UK and Europe are dropping like flies. They hiring outlook for any airlines in Europe is pretty dire.

Think really long and hard before you spend that sort of cash on something with non transferable skills.

[go around flaps15]

CTC have placed cadets this year at the assessment stage with Cathay, I know this because I have friends that were those very cadets.

In the past CTC have placed cadets at Jetstar Vietnam. I know one such cadet.

CTC have placed cadets at the assessment stage at Qatar Airways. That is also a fact.

Check your sources because in relation to the above 3 airlines you are wrong.

[Private jet]

Buggington,

Asking a question like that is like asking if its best to be hanged or electrocuted.

[b.a. Baracus]

You are young, I would consider going to University and getting a useful degree and then establish yourself in a career. Engineering can be very lucrative and it sounds like this may be a good fit given your A level subjects. There are people working in Engineering roles who are earning £500+ per day after 5 years of working experience.

At 17 there is plenty of time to get into professional flying, in the meantime get a PPL, go to interesting airfields, fly a taildragger, do some gliding, attend fly-ins.

It is very risky paying large sums of money for flight training and relying on this as a first career, it would be sensible to hedge your bets by gaining solid working experience in an alternative career. You can always re-evaluate and decide whether or not to embark on flying as a profession at a later date.

[student88]

If I was forced to chose one of the two it'd be CTC.

However if I was you, I wouldn't go to either. Now is not the time to be signing up to a integrated course.

[Buggington]

Thanks for all the replies - I'm working at the moment but I will take the time to read and probably respond to all the longer replies later.

Quick one: Student88 - why do you say now's not a good time? Clearly there's not much going on in the way of hiring, but you seem specific in the integrated part. (not disagreeing, just curious - the more information the better).

[Bealzebub]

After all that, I would be interested to hear of any opinions about either of these training schools, whether you've been through them, flown with anyone who's been through them or had any other experience with them.

Almost all of our cadets have come through one of these FTO's for the last 15 years. I have visited their training locations, and seen their training facilities. Graduates of these programme make up a sizeable proportion of our current pilot population. Our normal recruitment profile is roughly a one third proportion of cadets, one third experienced type rated pilots, and one third non-type rated pilots. The last category includes both civil airline pilots and experienced military career changers. It is a recruitment profile that has worked very well for us. Experienced pilots in either of the "DEP" categories would normally have solid background experience with a recognised and reputable airline. They would usually have around 2500 hours minimum experience including at least 500 hours of turbine time. In reality the experience levels would usually be significantly higher. Despite this, there is scope for recruitment when pilots with quality backgrounds become available at short notice who might not otherwise meet the minimum requirements but do represent a good asset. This might involve pilots who have been made redundant from another airline, or ex-cadets from similar programmes to our own, who are looking for more stable opportunities.

As it relates to this forum, only the cadet category is particularly meaningful, and certainly within the context of this thread. When recruitment is needed, the FTO will be approached with the number of cadets being sought. They will offer sufficient cadets who fulfil the airlines requirement, all of whom will be interviewed and the airline will select the candidates it perceives as the best from the group put forward. Many of these candidates will be from a "pool" where they completed their basic training some months earlier. A few may well have only just finished their training, however that depends on the recruitment cycle, and how many other airlines are also recruiting at the same time, and in what numbers. Sometimes cadets will have been "pre-selected" by virtue of a projected forward requirement, or because of the training programme being utilized (for example an MPL course.)

At the "200+ hour" level, these cadet opportunities (as and when they arise) are the only way we (and many other airlines offering similar cadet programmes) recruit any low houred pilots. I have flown with a lot of these cadets and they come to us with a solid, verifiable, consistent, managed, seamless training background. They are equipped to take on the very steep learning curve that is required of them for the next few years. They nearly always excel and go on to progress further up the promotion ladder as such opportunities arise. In my experience these pilots are a pleasure to fly with. They come from as diverse a range of backgrounds as you might find in any other section of the professional pilot population. They also seem to do very well in achieving promotion to command at the earliest opportunity, and then moving into managment and training roles on merit.

My experience is therefore a very positive one, and one that goes back to the early days of some of these programmes. However you don't have to look far (the next few posts I expect) to see that there are downsides. The cost of these programmes is likely to be upward of £85,000. For that reason alone the attrition rate is already in the higher percentiles! In the current economic landscape, there are many airlines taking advantage of their supply/demand position, to offer poor terms and conditions to graduates of these programmes. The volatility of the marketplace provides no guarantees and therefore a great deal of risk, on the placement situation at the end of this very expensive course of training.

Far too many people labour under the illusion that 250 hours is the experience "ticket" for an airline pilots job. It isn't, it never has been, and it is almost inconceivable that it ever would be in the future. Where it is a "ticket" it is through one of these integrated cadet programmes, or perhaps through one of the "commercial" recruitment programmes, what I might refer to as the "Ryanair to Lionair" sector. You can read enough about that on these forums and elsewhere. There are opportunities for experienced pilots from all types of backgrounds. The problem (and it is a big problem) is how do you get that experience. CPL/IR holders now only need a third of the hours to qualify, than they did a decade ago. As a result the marketplace is swamped, flooded, and deluged with such people. Opportunities do exist, but the attrition rate is enormous.

If you are looking for a fast track career as an airline pilot, then my advice would be to apply for one of these courses. However you should be under no illusion that it is extremely expensive, selective, and competitive. There are also no guarantees, and a lot of very real potential problems and pitfalls along the way. I see a lot of the success stories, but that is because the company I work for is a good partner and generally recognised as a good employer. Nevertheless as the small print on investment and borrowing often says..."past performance is no guarantee of future performance and should not be relied upon in making a decision" So all you can do is research, research and research, and then decide what level of risk you are prepared to assume, if any!

In summary:

I think these FTO's (my experience is one of them) produce a good standard of airline cadet. Their facilities and training are good. The cadets we receive integrate well into advanced training, and are able to follow a very steep learning curve with very few problems. We offer good opportunities and progression, and place a real value on the investment we make in our apprentice airline pilots. Such cadets are only a proportion of our recruitment portfolio, so we get a balance of good quality input and are better able to devote the necessary training resources where they are required.

Not every airline follows the same methodology, and there is a good chance that airlines with very different strategies and terms and conditions, could be "the only game in town" when you come to graduate. It may well also be the case that there is almost nothing on offer when you come to graduate.

These courses are expensive, and in some cases will involve significant extra expense before you can move on to the advanced stages of training. If this expense is not realistic or an acceptable risk profile in your own set of circumstances, then it shouldn't even be a consideration. That is a part of the normal attrition process, like it or not.

[redsnail]

As Ryanair are one of the larger employers of low houred pilot cadets,
you may want to have a look at their site under careers.

Careers in travel - Pilot Recruitment

In particular this:-

In light of reduced requirement for cadet pilots in the 2013/2014 recruitment period and the overwhelming demand for places on the cadet programme, the cadet application portal will close from 1st April 2013 until further notice.

That will mean more people in various hold pools....

[Buggington]

Pilot lad - "Am I correct in saying that with the MPL cadet schemes advertised at CTC it's a case of applying for the standard CTC Wings and if timing is good one of these airlines could preselect you for part-sponsorship?"

That's what I understand, although I suspect we're getting our information from the same source.

[Buggington]

Bealzebub: First of all, I think you win the award for longest reply I've ever seen on a forum - so thanks for all the effort!

It's nice to see that there's a positive opinion out there, and I realise that it's definitely not going to get me straight into a job, and that there's a hell of a lot of competition.

Question though: When you mention the "considerable extra expense" that I may face, are you talking about the type rating, or is there something else that I haven't heard of yet? I've come to terms with the fact that I will probably have to pay for my own type rating, unless by some amazing luck I end up with someone like BA who tend to pay for the type rating (or so I hear?).

Some sort of cadetship is still what I want, and I when I've left college I will be looking into the likes of BA Future Flyer and other schemes.

Private jet: Electrocuted if you don't mind.

Rex: So far, your answer is the one that has got me the most worried. I accept that by my mid forties I probably won't enjoy my job as much as I would now, but I think that's the case with all jobs. I've met pilots who love the job, have been doing it for years and have moved onto training other pilots, so I'm not quite sure how their experiences in the industry are different to yours.

Baracus: That's the backup plan (as it stands)

MightyDuck: The aim of the NPPL was more to determine whether I actually like flying (turns out I do!), and to show future employers (or CTC/OAA/whoever) that I actually have an interest in flying, and I'm not just in it for the money. When I spoke to GAPAN at Heathrow a while ago one of the first things they asked me was whether I had funded any of the flying myself (I have) - obviously this is to gauge how interested I am in flying.

[Bealzebub]

Question though: When you mention the "considerable extra expense" that I may face, are you talking about the type rating, or is there something else that I haven't heard of yet? I've come to terms with the fact that I will probably have to pay for my own type rating, unless by some amazing luck I end up with someone like BA who tend to pay for the type rating (or so I hear?).

Yes! our cadets (and a few others) have their type ratings paid for by the airline. If we offer an employment contract (as we would always hope to) at the end of the placement period, then the type rating is included by way of a diminishing short term bond. The pilot would only need to repay a sliding proportion of those costs if they chose to break the contract within that specified time period. If no contract is offered or the placement is discontinued then we eat the training costs as part of the deal. However other airlines have very different arrangements. Some charge an up front contribution to training costs, which may vary in scope from a contributory sum, to the full cost of that training.

In addition, a pilots licence is a very perishable commodity. There is a need to keep current. There are medicals and ratings that have to be renewed. In placement or employment, many of these costs are simply absorbed into the day to day emoluments of the job. For somebody sitting in a holding pool, or biding their time in another job, they are hard costs that fall squarely on their shoulders. To give you a real example of this, I have seen two people from the same training course who by fate of timing got offered exactly the same placement. One got taken on as soon as they completed their training course. One got taken on from a "holding pool" 12 months later. The first has had their ratings and renewals paid for as part of their placement/employment. The first has 800 hours airline experience. The first has had their medicals paid for. The first has a full time employment contract. The second has had to pay for two medical renewals. The second has had to arrange for their own rating renewals in order to maintain their currency. Similarly, they have had to arrange flying and simulator time to maintain their own proficiency. Whatever help they may also have been afforded by the FTO, they have also had to deal with the repayment schedules on their borrowing without the advantage of that first rung on the career ladder for the last 12 months. The first cadet will now be on a broad brush gross salary of around £45k now, rising by about 30% within the next 4 months. The second cadet will have to wait and see what the lie of the land is in another 6 months time.

This is at the good end of the market. As others will be quick to point out, there are plenty of "opportunities" on far less friendly terms, and with far greater associated risk.

[Buggington]

Can I work for you please? It sounds good already!

I hadn't thought about the costs of keeping current too much to be honest. Fingers crossed, if I was stuck in the holding pool for a while I would be able to get some work to keep myself going - the worrying part is potentially the BBVA loan repayments, which I'm sure you're aware of.

Would you know off the top of your head how many hours are required to keep current, with and without a type rating? (Obviously I'm not going to have a type rating before my job, but just out of interest in case I find myself out of work later on).

Thanks