Would you pay for a type rating?
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Would you pay for a type rating?
I've noticed an ever-present (and ever-growing) concern over the cost of type rating training amongst UK pilots.
Further to BALPA's video message recently regarding highly-indebted, poorly remunerated cadet pilots, I wanted to find out approximately what percentage of pilots would be willing to pay for their type rating. I am, of course, referring to the £25,000 fee charged by some locos, in return for a short-term contract. (Being contracted to an airline whilst on reduced wages, I feel, is not the same as this, as the airline takes a greater responsibility for the pilot's career. (Neither is paying cost-price for the type rating!) So we'll class that as not paying for the benefit of this debate).
My main reason for asking is simple; whilst people continue to pay locos hugely over the odds for their type rating, I believe the locos will continue to charge. It is simply another revenue stream for them. If we stop paying, will they stop charging?
So, here's the question: with the industry in it's current state, would you pay in excess of £25,000 for a type rating?
Answers/debate on a postcard please! And please feel free to pick apart my question, I'd like to hear it all...
Further to BALPA's video message recently regarding highly-indebted, poorly remunerated cadet pilots, I wanted to find out approximately what percentage of pilots would be willing to pay for their type rating. I am, of course, referring to the £25,000 fee charged by some locos, in return for a short-term contract. (Being contracted to an airline whilst on reduced wages, I feel, is not the same as this, as the airline takes a greater responsibility for the pilot's career. (Neither is paying cost-price for the type rating!) So we'll class that as not paying for the benefit of this debate).
My main reason for asking is simple; whilst people continue to pay locos hugely over the odds for their type rating, I believe the locos will continue to charge. It is simply another revenue stream for them. If we stop paying, will they stop charging?
So, here's the question: with the industry in it's current state, would you pay in excess of £25,000 for a type rating?
Answers/debate on a postcard please! And please feel free to pick apart my question, I'd like to hear it all...
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Not every airline does this. One recent recruitment drive, took on a large number of pilots without type ratings. The ratings were provided free of charge, subject to a sum of less than 10k being repaid in the event the pilot left employment in 18 months. This sum was on a monthly sliding scale. This applied to both non-rated experienced pilots and cadets.
If you read these forums 10+ years ago, you would have seen howls of outrage at any form of "bonding." Together with endless threads along the lines of, "so what can they do about my bond if I jump ship?" Well the answer was simple. They charged you the money up front and if you jumped ship, they simply employed somebody else on the same low-risk /no risk terms.
It never fails to surprise me how few people have researched the evolution of the industry, in order to both better understand the realities of what they face today, and how it is likely to further pan out tommorow.
Even through the current economic gloom, you can still peek behind the hoardings to see the investment that is taking place in certain corners of the training industry, and get a good idea what is likely to be revealed in the near future. One thing is sure, the reasons might change, but the "howls" will be as loud as ever!
If you read these forums 10+ years ago, you would have seen howls of outrage at any form of "bonding." Together with endless threads along the lines of, "so what can they do about my bond if I jump ship?" Well the answer was simple. They charged you the money up front and if you jumped ship, they simply employed somebody else on the same low-risk /no risk terms.
It never fails to surprise me how few people have researched the evolution of the industry, in order to both better understand the realities of what they face today, and how it is likely to further pan out tommorow.
Even through the current economic gloom, you can still peek behind the hoardings to see the investment that is taking place in certain corners of the training industry, and get a good idea what is likely to be revealed in the near future. One thing is sure, the reasons might change, but the "howls" will be as loud as ever!
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Right now its really not a question of "would you pay for a rating", it's more like "name a single operator that's hiring who DOESN'T make you pay for rating"
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Well, I can name two! British airways and Monarch. I don't believe the major Middle eastern carriers charge you either. I am sure there are plenty more.
In the two UK examples given, they do not charge experienced pilots requiring a type rating, nor do they charge cadets who obviously require a type rating. Of course both are major TRTO's in their own right, and both have reputations for a strong employment ethic. This philosophy extends across the scope of their business. For example, both have a long history of apprenticeship programmes in their respective engineering divisions and both have recognised achievement awards for their excellence in training.
In the two UK examples given, they do not charge experienced pilots requiring a type rating, nor do they charge cadets who obviously require a type rating. Of course both are major TRTO's in their own right, and both have reputations for a strong employment ethic. This philosophy extends across the scope of their business. For example, both have a long history of apprenticeship programmes in their respective engineering divisions and both have recognised achievement awards for their excellence in training.
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No I wouldn't, unless under a bond with good T&C.
I spoke to "a" company during this year and they stated they bond you for 3 years, to cover costs for the TR and take people with 200hrs, straight after flying college - SO they ARE out there, it's a case of not relying upon the internet and getting out there and meeting these companies, or being at the right place at the right time.
I spoke to "a" company during this year and they stated they bond you for 3 years, to cover costs for the TR and take people with 200hrs, straight after flying college - SO they ARE out there, it's a case of not relying upon the internet and getting out there and meeting these companies, or being at the right place at the right time.
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Monarch
they do not charge experienced pilots requiring a type rating, nor do they charge cadets who obviously require a type rating.
Normally the minimum qualifications and experience that we require from pilot applicants are:
•A UK EASA ATPL (or Frozen ATPL) with UK EASA Class 1 medical certificate
•At least 2000 hours total time in fixed wing aircraft, including 500 hours completed on a heavy turbo prop or jet in excess of 15 tonnes
•MCC qualified
•The permanent right to live and work in the UK
Occasionally we may recruit pilots with lower total experience, but who possess a type rating for the Airbus A320.
•A UK EASA ATPL (or Frozen ATPL) with UK EASA Class 1 medical certificate
•At least 2000 hours total time in fixed wing aircraft, including 500 hours completed on a heavy turbo prop or jet in excess of 15 tonnes
•MCC qualified
•The permanent right to live and work in the UK
Occasionally we may recruit pilots with lower total experience, but who possess a type rating for the Airbus A320.
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Bealzebub in the context of this forum being for 200 hour wannabes, it's not really true to say that BA or Monarch are on the radar is it ... correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really follow cadet schemes these days but it's either pre selected and trained from zero as a cadet, or already got a few thousand hours experience?
When's the last time either of those companies took a non typed 200 hour hero, who wasn't paying through the nose via CTC or something similar?
When's the last time either of those companies took a non typed 200 hour hero, who wasn't paying through the nose via CTC or something similar?
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Bealzebub in the context of this forum being for 200 hour wannabes, it's not really true to say that BA or Monarch are on the radar is it ... correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really follow cadet schemes these days but it's either pre selected and trained from zero as a cadet, or already got a few thousand hours experience?
When's the last time either of those companies took a non typed 200 hour hero, who wasn't paying through the nose via CTC or something similar?
When's the last time either of those companies took a non typed 200 hour hero, who wasn't paying through the nose via CTC or something similar?
This forum is for 200 hour wannabes. The only 200 hour pilots these type of airlines are likely to ever give consideration to are through their "cadet" programmes. Beyond that, wannabes are likely to have a great deal more than 200 hours! Outside of these programmes, most wannabes are likely to be looking at the stepping stone jobs such as flight instruction, general aviation, etc.
The requirements for a CPL were reduced from 700 hours to 200 hours with the introduction of JAR, in order to align the "aerial work" nature of the licence with that existing in the USA and most of the rest of the world. It was not to grant a 70% reduction in the basic airline qualification that satisfied a non-existent requirement.
Nothing new in this, it has always been the case. For consideration in a first tier airline the routes have always been: Cadet; career improver; military leaver. These two airlines, and many others, have always recruited from these sources.
When's the last time either of those companies took a non typed 200 hour hero, who wasn't paying through the nose via CTC or something similar?
Paying for a type rating is highly speculative unless it is part of an overall employment package. A type rating that doesn't fit in with a relevant history will simply raise a "red flag" with most reputable employers. For example somebody with a type rating acquired through a reputable source, who has then worked with an equally reputable carrier for perhaps one season as a cadet before that employment ended, is likely to viewed as a very different animal from somebody with 200 hours and a CPL/IR who then went and paid for a type rating and experience with some dodgy company specializing in those things. There simply isn't any need to give consideration to the latter.
There are many reputable airlines (in other airlines eyes,) who may charge up-front fees for type ratings to both cadets and more experienced pilots. However a few don't, and within the context of the question on this thread the answer was perfectly valid. I have been saying this for many years on these forums now.
Once again, there are opportunities for 200 hour pilots to have their type ratings paid for by both of these companies and others. I would counter that "paying through the nose" needs to put into context when it results in employment that allows the amortization of training costs in around 5 years, a free type rating and a good career to boot. Obviously that is the top end of the training tree, and far from most peoples experience.
If you are a 200 hour wannabe and any airline is seriously considering employing you by "virtue" of paying for your own type rating, then frankly I would jump at the offer. Given that no reputable first tier airline has ever (outside of recognised apprenticeship programmes) had such a requirement, it would be simply be too good an offer to refuse. Therin might lie the problem!
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Yep fair enough I think we are in agreement to be honest, the way the industry has gone now I think you need to really split the buy-a-rating argument in two. At the risk of stating the obvious if you get a job offer from a really top tier outfit like BA or Monarch then bite their hand off. And I do have to agree that if a decent job offer with a good employer was already secured, contingent on acquisition of a type rating at own expense, I think in today's world you'd be mad not to go for it.
However the speculative buy-a-type-rating thing without a job offer - let alone the dreaded "500 hours line training" load of sh!t - no way Jose
However the speculative buy-a-type-rating thing without a job offer - let alone the dreaded "500 hours line training" load of sh!t - no way Jose
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I woundnt want to pay but to be honest, there really isnt much of an option, the surplus of pilots and other issues already pointed out here sum up the situation. As bad as it sounds I guess... But I would agree that the best way is to wait until you secured a job then do the type rating. I think that with those contracts in hand many pilots get their loan for the type rating, makes things easier with the bank, especially if your trying to get it unsecured...!?
Perhaps there should be a change in the way that you become a pilot? For example to bind you to a contract, both parties?
Let me expand, say you have just a PPL, Night Rating maybe ME (something quite basic, so your hours would be maybe around 100 or 150) and ATPL theory (it would have a 1 general resit test once every 36 month just to make sure your knowledge didnt go if you didnt move on to CPL/IR). However you cant advance further, you will be limited, the only option would be to go to airline interviews and if you are successful you will sign a contract with an airline, only then you can advance further in training to get a CPL/IR/MCC/TYPE, perhaps the training would be sponsored, but the main idea it would tie you to an airline, hence wouldnt be so many guys in dept and so many unemployed pilots. The contract would last 5 - 10 years or till a minimum of until your fATPL would be unfrozen, before that the airline would have to refund you anything you spent on training!?
This is just an idea on the spot...
Obviously more changes are needed in the industry... But the situation now is unacceptable...
Perhaps there should be a change in the way that you become a pilot? For example to bind you to a contract, both parties?
Let me expand, say you have just a PPL, Night Rating maybe ME (something quite basic, so your hours would be maybe around 100 or 150) and ATPL theory (it would have a 1 general resit test once every 36 month just to make sure your knowledge didnt go if you didnt move on to CPL/IR). However you cant advance further, you will be limited, the only option would be to go to airline interviews and if you are successful you will sign a contract with an airline, only then you can advance further in training to get a CPL/IR/MCC/TYPE, perhaps the training would be sponsored, but the main idea it would tie you to an airline, hence wouldnt be so many guys in dept and so many unemployed pilots. The contract would last 5 - 10 years or till a minimum of until your fATPL would be unfrozen, before that the airline would have to refund you anything you spent on training!?
This is just an idea on the spot...
Obviously more changes are needed in the industry... But the situation now is unacceptable...
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Yes, DHL did do that, last time I believe was Oct 2011 where I was fortunate enough to have my shiny CV selected for interview.
They had apparently had over 4000 applicants for the bonded scheme (never advertised) and ended up picking four, which im told, struggled with the 757 to the point where DHL said "no more cadet pilots".
If you put yourself in the position of a cash-strapped airline why would you invest in people when they are climbing hand over foot to come and invest in you? The power shift in the last few years had made airlines realised just how badly some people want to become pilots, and where there's demand theres exploitation. Always has been always will be.
I've recently decided to pay for a type rating on the 737 with 500hrs line training subject to asking a few questions and being convinced that there are jobs (albeit poor conditions) out there. We can moan about the ethics of it all we want but at the end of the day somebody is going to get that job and 99 others aren't. Im sick and tired of being part of the latter.
Tell someone who moans at having to shell out £600 for cabin crew training just how much it costs to be a pilot and watch their jaw hit the floor! It's a joke but a survivable one if you have a backup career you can follow if it all goes wrong or if you need to bide your time.
They had apparently had over 4000 applicants for the bonded scheme (never advertised) and ended up picking four, which im told, struggled with the 757 to the point where DHL said "no more cadet pilots".
If you put yourself in the position of a cash-strapped airline why would you invest in people when they are climbing hand over foot to come and invest in you? The power shift in the last few years had made airlines realised just how badly some people want to become pilots, and where there's demand theres exploitation. Always has been always will be.
I've recently decided to pay for a type rating on the 737 with 500hrs line training subject to asking a few questions and being convinced that there are jobs (albeit poor conditions) out there. We can moan about the ethics of it all we want but at the end of the day somebody is going to get that job and 99 others aren't. Im sick and tired of being part of the latter.
Tell someone who moans at having to shell out £600 for cabin crew training just how much it costs to be a pilot and watch their jaw hit the floor! It's a joke but a survivable one if you have a backup career you can follow if it all goes wrong or if you need to bide your time.
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Isn't the real problem something else - why on earth do type ratings cost so much? They're not going away. Must be a market here for someone to offer a cheaper product, so that candidates can afford to have a couple as part of their pilot training.
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Brilliant points being made all round; it's very true that whilst there is demand, there will be supply. This leads onto @AdamFrisch's point, why do type ratings cost so much? Because cadets are willing to pay that much. Supply/demand.
Another consideration for cadet pilots of 2012/2013 is this: with c.£80,000 in hand (from family, personal savings etc.), would the cadet be best investing only in an integrated course and hoping that by 2015 type ratings aren't £25,000 (e.g. the airline pays, showing preference for the integrated candidate), or... spend the £80,000 on a modular course and type rating combined (e.g. the current RYR/EZY setup).
Which do you think would have best job prospects in 2015? I think I know which I'd prefer!
Another consideration for cadet pilots of 2012/2013 is this: with c.£80,000 in hand (from family, personal savings etc.), would the cadet be best investing only in an integrated course and hoping that by 2015 type ratings aren't £25,000 (e.g. the airline pays, showing preference for the integrated candidate), or... spend the £80,000 on a modular course and type rating combined (e.g. the current RYR/EZY setup).
Which do you think would have best job prospects in 2015? I think I know which I'd prefer!
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Would I pay for a Type Rating for one of the locosts? I might, at least you know you can just tough it out for a few years and then you should be able to pay back the loan and have something to show for it.
Would I pay for a Type Rating without a job offer? Not a chance.
Would I pay for a Type Rating without a job offer? Not a chance.
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Another consideration for cadet pilots of 2012/2013 is this: with c.£80,000 in hand (from family, personal savings etc.), would the cadet be best investing only in an integrated course and hoping that by 2015 type ratings aren't £25,000 (e.g. the airline pays, showing preference for the integrated candidate), or... spend the £80,000 on a modular course and type rating combined (e.g. the current RYR/EZY setup).
The problem with this type of transistion for low houred pilots, is that it is a very steep learning curve. Nobody wants failures. The airlines don't, and the candidates obviously don't. This level of flying experience is generally considered far too low to ensure the curve is achievable and produces a strong level of success. Particularly so, when the airline is paying or subsidising the training cost towards the type rating.
Apart from the airline that charges for interviews, and contracts the application / assesment process as part of a profit centre, the others all draw their low hour experience "cadets" from one route, for these fundamental reasons. It may well be that many candidates from other sources would achieve the necessary gradient to success, but across the general demographic, that is simply too costly and time intensive to make it a realistic proposition for these commercial entities.
Type ratings for more experienced pilots represents a much lower risk, as the experience and background provides for a much easier assessment and profile. In other words a more gradual learning curve can take you to the same point at the expense of more time and consequently more experience. The type rating in itself doesn't bypass the steeper learning curve required of these airlines integrated students.
Which do you think would have best job prospects in 2015? I think I know which I'd prefer!
Isn't the real problem something else - why on earth do type ratings cost so much? They're not going away. Must be a market here for someone to offer a cheaper product, so that candidates can afford to have a couple as part of their pilot training.
A typical jet type rating for a cadet, involves around £10,000 of raw simulator time (assuming the candidates are paired trainees.) Add to that Instructor time, base training, safety pilots, line training, ground courses, expenses etc, and the costs become significant. Many airlines do not charge for these ratings, but apply a bond. Whereby if the candidate leaves within a set timeframe, they agree by contract to repay a proportion of these costs on a sliding scale.
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Friend of mine bought a 320 TR through a man who advertises on this website! (Rhymes with "buy tray glee plenty") 25K for a memory stick covering ground-school component. Variety of disinterested random instructors conducting disorganized middle-of-night simulator sessions. 3 month delay for base training in Eastern Europe. No interviews since completion due to 1 hour on type. POINTLESS EXERCISE.......
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There is a big difference between paying for a type rating, and trying to buy a job, but back to that in a second.
Paying for a rating is not the cause of operators now expecting you to be type rated. Pilots who have got a "free" type rating and left before their commitment is done is the reason. How long did we think operators were going to continue funding our career advancement. We are our own worst enemy!!
Anyway, back to buying a job. If you go to an airline that charges you an extortionate amount of money for a rating with the promise of a job once you are done, you are buying a job, plane(sic) and simple. These are the dregs of operators, and not much better from the pilots. These are the people that are ruining it for the youngsters who go out and instruct or fly humanitarian or charter for 1500 hours before trying to get into an airline. However, this is human nature, "the path of least resistance" and I am hoping EASA will adopt the same principle as the FAA is doing, that you will not be able to fly for an airline without an ATP (unfrozen) This, while you think is bullcr@p and all the other words you can think of to describe it will reform the European airline industry as far as pilots are concerned. No-one that has had to do 4 years of flying humanitarian relief in Africa, or midnight charters out of Scotland in winter to get to 1500 hours is going to part with £25000 for a 737 type, and all the people who want to be AIRLINE PILOTS because its cool, rather than real pilots in an airline, will get weeded out because of the hard slog to get the 1500 hours. It will also make the sleezy operators reduce the ludicrous cost of type ratings and concentrate on running an airline, realizing that training is a necessary part of the industry, not a cash cow.
But until that happens, you are always going to get 250 hour pilots who think they have earned the right to fly a 319.
My best advice to you all, is to look outside of the box, find a flying position that gives you fun and adventure for the first few years, build some time and then go and find the boring seat you are going to fill till your are 65.
There is no rush, that seat will still be there, and who knows, if EASA brings in the 1500 hour rule, you will be a lot closer to your dream than the guy with 250 hours TT and an Airbus rating that He mortgaged his life away for!!
Paying for a rating is not the cause of operators now expecting you to be type rated. Pilots who have got a "free" type rating and left before their commitment is done is the reason. How long did we think operators were going to continue funding our career advancement. We are our own worst enemy!!
Anyway, back to buying a job. If you go to an airline that charges you an extortionate amount of money for a rating with the promise of a job once you are done, you are buying a job, plane(sic) and simple. These are the dregs of operators, and not much better from the pilots. These are the people that are ruining it for the youngsters who go out and instruct or fly humanitarian or charter for 1500 hours before trying to get into an airline. However, this is human nature, "the path of least resistance" and I am hoping EASA will adopt the same principle as the FAA is doing, that you will not be able to fly for an airline without an ATP (unfrozen) This, while you think is bullcr@p and all the other words you can think of to describe it will reform the European airline industry as far as pilots are concerned. No-one that has had to do 4 years of flying humanitarian relief in Africa, or midnight charters out of Scotland in winter to get to 1500 hours is going to part with £25000 for a 737 type, and all the people who want to be AIRLINE PILOTS because its cool, rather than real pilots in an airline, will get weeded out because of the hard slog to get the 1500 hours. It will also make the sleezy operators reduce the ludicrous cost of type ratings and concentrate on running an airline, realizing that training is a necessary part of the industry, not a cash cow.
But until that happens, you are always going to get 250 hour pilots who think they have earned the right to fly a 319.
My best advice to you all, is to look outside of the box, find a flying position that gives you fun and adventure for the first few years, build some time and then go and find the boring seat you are going to fill till your are 65.
There is no rush, that seat will still be there, and who knows, if EASA brings in the 1500 hour rule, you will be a lot closer to your dream than the guy with 250 hours TT and an Airbus rating that He mortgaged his life away for!!