FTE or OAA
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FTE or OAA
I know that there are already a lot of threads about these schools . But I wanna know what the advantages and dis-advantages of each school are ?
The quality comparing to each other ?
The employment rates of FTE ? Which airlines etc How long is the average waiting time for a job ?
The quality comparing to each other ?
The employment rates of FTE ? Which airlines etc How long is the average waiting time for a job ?
Last edited by isos1; 6th Oct 2012 at 09:54.
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Both Schools evidently provide quality training to there students however;
They're both experts in Marketing - Many people get drawn into there fancy pieces of paper and promotional videos.
They'll both charge you around 85k for the privilege, and offer you ABSOLUTELY ZERO BETTER Job prospects at the end as any other FTO around, apart from a Cadet-ship.
I'd say the only advantage with FTE is that all training is completed in one place; Jerez, Spain.
I'd say the only advantage with CAE/OAA is that there a very reputable TRTO aswell.
Employment Rates? - Both Flight school's graduates will be in the same boat as any other student graduating from any other FTO.
Average waiting time depends on many factors - Current Climate, at the moment, extremely long. When you graduate this maybe different but no one can say until then I'm afraid.
Secondly, luck.
I'd strongly recommend you to do your research before committing to any FTO. I was in the same position as you once, CTC, OAA, FTE all won me over with there glossy paper, I didn't really no any-other FTO's existed until I spent a good few months researching and I found there are hundreds of other FTO's out there offering quality and affordable 0-fATPL training in the structure of both Modular & Integrated.
They're both experts in Marketing - Many people get drawn into there fancy pieces of paper and promotional videos.
They'll both charge you around 85k for the privilege, and offer you ABSOLUTELY ZERO BETTER Job prospects at the end as any other FTO around, apart from a Cadet-ship.
I'd say the only advantage with FTE is that all training is completed in one place; Jerez, Spain.
I'd say the only advantage with CAE/OAA is that there a very reputable TRTO aswell.
Employment Rates? - Both Flight school's graduates will be in the same boat as any other student graduating from any other FTO.
Average waiting time depends on many factors - Current Climate, at the moment, extremely long. When you graduate this maybe different but no one can say until then I'm afraid.
Secondly, luck.
I'd strongly recommend you to do your research before committing to any FTO. I was in the same position as you once, CTC, OAA, FTE all won me over with there glossy paper, I didn't really no any-other FTO's existed until I spent a good few months researching and I found there are hundreds of other FTO's out there offering quality and affordable 0-fATPL training in the structure of both Modular & Integrated.
Last edited by jamesleaman; 6th Oct 2012 at 14:51.
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Perhaps the emphasis in your post should have been placed as follows?
The cadetship is rather the point.
I appreciate from your previous postings that an airline cadetship isn't something you are interested in, but for many people it is. Most of these programmes are tied into specific schools. For example the British airways FPP programme is tied to these 3 integrated schools only!. Most of the other airline cadet programmes are tied to one or other of the same "big 3."
First tier Airline employment at this level of relative experience is usually through one of these cadet programmes. The idea that such airlines are tripping over themselves to employ new CPL/IR holders (other than through their cadet schemes) is simply erroneous. We source cadets through these recognised programmes, as do most of the other airlines with similar programmes. We also source experienced pilots with relevant experience (quality airline background and significant levels of both total and turbine experience.) We also select military pilots changing careers.
The cadet programmes are a fast track career path. The career path through the "experience" route is long, littered with bodies, and frought with its own difficulties and crowds. For the lucky few, the timescale through to the experience levels required (in our case) represents around £300,000+, of earnings that the succesful cadet would have amassed over the same period. The timescale I have used is 60 months.
There are many schools offering training courses for a licence, and they have many customers. They are undoubtably "more affordable" in most cases. However just as with the "big 3" they are all businesses. In business to make a profit and grow. I have said it many times before, but if your goal is simply the cheapest acquisition of a CPL/IR then shop around. The choice is vast.
If your goal is a shot at a fast track airline career, through a cadet programme, then the choice is very limited. It is also in many cases more expensive.
In the last 18 months we have recruited around 35 cadets with about as many likely to be taken on in the next 6 months. The existing recruits are all on full time employment contracts. After Mr Osborne has had his cut, they should all take home around £200,000 over the next 60 months. Spending around 40% (including tax breaks) of that take home pay on their training cost commitments, they can (if they elect to do so) amortize the entire debt in that same 60 months. At the end of that 5 year period they also have around 4000 hours of jet experience and the basic requisites for command consideration.
Obviously this is a spectrum, and I am highlighting the relatively pretty end of that spectrum. There are far worse deals, to be found without travelling too far down that spectrum. Just as importantly, there are never any guarantees of anything. All of us are never more than one pay cheque away from potential unemployment, and great caution should be given to the realities of this industry.
I have been watching these forums for 13 years or so, and have been flying with cadets for longer than that. In all likelyhood there are people reading these forums with not an hour to their names, who will be flying airliners 18-24 months from now. There will also be a lot of people who currently hold a CPL/IR now, who in 24 months from now will still be on these forums bemoaning the realities that they simply chose to ignore, discusssing their lapsed ratings, dearth of opportunity, Indonesian type ratings, the eternal unfairness of it all, etc.etc.
Yes, with thousands and thousands of young hopefuls believing they can then jump straight into the right seat of an A320 or 737. As a percentage very, very, few will. With the established cadet programmes, very few won't.
Based on the realities of the marketplace for young low houred wannabes, my advice is if you have the ability, financial resources, and can stomach the risk, work towards a cadetship with one of the recognised and established programmes. If you cannot, then the choices are many and varied, but the opportunities are almost always going to be few and far between, and competitively fought over by thousands and thousands of hopefulls just like yourself. If you think otherwise, just read these forums, and read last years contributions, and the years before, and the years before that, and the years before that. Read contributions from the last decade, and the decade before that, and......
They'll both charge you around 85k for the privilege, and offer you ABSOLUTELY ZERO BETTER Job prospects at the end as any other FTO around, apart from a Cadet-ship.
I appreciate from your previous postings that an airline cadetship isn't something you are interested in, but for many people it is. Most of these programmes are tied into specific schools. For example the British airways FPP programme is tied to these 3 integrated schools only!. Most of the other airline cadet programmes are tied to one or other of the same "big 3."
First tier Airline employment at this level of relative experience is usually through one of these cadet programmes. The idea that such airlines are tripping over themselves to employ new CPL/IR holders (other than through their cadet schemes) is simply erroneous. We source cadets through these recognised programmes, as do most of the other airlines with similar programmes. We also source experienced pilots with relevant experience (quality airline background and significant levels of both total and turbine experience.) We also select military pilots changing careers.
The cadet programmes are a fast track career path. The career path through the "experience" route is long, littered with bodies, and frought with its own difficulties and crowds. For the lucky few, the timescale through to the experience levels required (in our case) represents around £300,000+, of earnings that the succesful cadet would have amassed over the same period. The timescale I have used is 60 months.
There are many schools offering training courses for a licence, and they have many customers. They are undoubtably "more affordable" in most cases. However just as with the "big 3" they are all businesses. In business to make a profit and grow. I have said it many times before, but if your goal is simply the cheapest acquisition of a CPL/IR then shop around. The choice is vast.
If your goal is a shot at a fast track airline career, through a cadet programme, then the choice is very limited. It is also in many cases more expensive.
In the last 18 months we have recruited around 35 cadets with about as many likely to be taken on in the next 6 months. The existing recruits are all on full time employment contracts. After Mr Osborne has had his cut, they should all take home around £200,000 over the next 60 months. Spending around 40% (including tax breaks) of that take home pay on their training cost commitments, they can (if they elect to do so) amortize the entire debt in that same 60 months. At the end of that 5 year period they also have around 4000 hours of jet experience and the basic requisites for command consideration.
Obviously this is a spectrum, and I am highlighting the relatively pretty end of that spectrum. There are far worse deals, to be found without travelling too far down that spectrum. Just as importantly, there are never any guarantees of anything. All of us are never more than one pay cheque away from potential unemployment, and great caution should be given to the realities of this industry.
I have been watching these forums for 13 years or so, and have been flying with cadets for longer than that. In all likelyhood there are people reading these forums with not an hour to their names, who will be flying airliners 18-24 months from now. There will also be a lot of people who currently hold a CPL/IR now, who in 24 months from now will still be on these forums bemoaning the realities that they simply chose to ignore, discusssing their lapsed ratings, dearth of opportunity, Indonesian type ratings, the eternal unfairness of it all, etc.etc.
I spent a good few months researching and I found there are hundreds of other FTO's out there offering quality and affordable 0-fATPL training in the structure of both Modular & Integrated.
Based on the realities of the marketplace for young low houred wannabes, my advice is if you have the ability, financial resources, and can stomach the risk, work towards a cadetship with one of the recognised and established programmes. If you cannot, then the choices are many and varied, but the opportunities are almost always going to be few and far between, and competitively fought over by thousands and thousands of hopefulls just like yourself. If you think otherwise, just read these forums, and read last years contributions, and the years before, and the years before that, and the years before that. Read contributions from the last decade, and the decade before that, and......
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The point is that isos1 asked for the comparison between OAA and FTE. He hasn't mentioned Cadetships, and rightly so as OAA or FTE don't offer them. If he wanted a Cadetship he'd be looking at CTC or BA FPP (if and when they re-open it), or directly ask about it.
I don't think I'd be far wrong in saying that isos1's post was more from a 'self sponsored integrated' point of view, and if you look at the FTO's from that point of view, I'm sure you'd agree with what I said above, as you were very present in my topic about not enrolling on the CTC's Cadet scheme.
Regards
I don't think I'd be far wrong in saying that isos1's post was more from a 'self sponsored integrated' point of view, and if you look at the FTO's from that point of view, I'm sure you'd agree with what I said above, as you were very present in my topic about not enrolling on the CTC's Cadet scheme.
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I don't think I'd be far wrong in saying that isos1's post was more from a 'self sponsored integrated' point of view, and if you look at the FTO's from that point of view, I'm sure you'd agree with what I said above, as you were very present in my topic about not enrolling on the CTC's Cadet scheme.
All of the big 3 (including the 2 mentioned,) have affiliations with various partner airlines, and do from time to time provide the ab-initio training for those airlines cadet schemes. Almost everybody embarking on a course of training at these schools would hope to take advantage of any opportunities that may be provided by virtue of these affiliations. They do happen. OAA and FTE have provided integrated course pilots into other airlines cadet schemes from time to time, so your supposition isn't correct. Cadetships are offered by the airlines in conjunction with the partner schools. Airlines such as British airways use all 3. Monarch have taken cadets from all 3. Flybe have used all 3 (and more besides). Similarly other airlines have done likewise to either a greater or lesser degree.
The poster hasn't stated what they want from the investment, but it is reasonable to assume they are looking for the best possible return on that investment. If it is simply a CPL/IR and the chance to join an ocean of would be hopefulls, then I might agree with you. However I suspect that isn't the case at all.
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There is no easy answer or path
Cadetships - only 200 hrs and in the pointy end of an airbus/boeing. Quite incredible when you think about it. But take the CTC/Easy/Flexicrew deal - you earn stuff all in your first 8 month contract and how many aren't getting renewed for their 2nd 8 month contract to make way for the latest batch of cadets off the production line? Quite a few.
But 500 hrs ish on the airbus in that time is not to be sniffed at and I imagine there is a very good chance that a lot or most will be given their 2nd 8 month contract next spring/summer?
Modular - I think in the main, modular for the time being unfortunately is out on its feet if the airlines is your goal. There isn't much recruitment at the moment and when an airline recruits they tend to be via cadetships of some description. If you were to draw up a list of airlines that recruit freshly minted cpl/ir modular students, it would be a very short one.
That will change given time to a degree, but as we are in the worst recession since the 30s or something, its hardly surprising.
Any sort of job for a fresh modular student are few and far between, but a first job with an airline, they are extremely few and far between.
Straight into an airbus with a cadetship is pretty special, but earning very little in the first 8 months with a good chance of not getting a renewal over the winter months is obviously not great. But the clue is in the title. It wouldn't be called 'Flex' otherwise, would it!
So there is no easy answer and neither path is easy. Hardly surprising given the state of the economy. 'You pays your money, you takes your choice' I believe is the saying. Perhaps a wise man would keep their money in their pocket for the time being!?
But 500 hrs ish on the airbus in that time is not to be sniffed at and I imagine there is a very good chance that a lot or most will be given their 2nd 8 month contract next spring/summer?
Modular - I think in the main, modular for the time being unfortunately is out on its feet if the airlines is your goal. There isn't much recruitment at the moment and when an airline recruits they tend to be via cadetships of some description. If you were to draw up a list of airlines that recruit freshly minted cpl/ir modular students, it would be a very short one.
That will change given time to a degree, but as we are in the worst recession since the 30s or something, its hardly surprising.
Any sort of job for a fresh modular student are few and far between, but a first job with an airline, they are extremely few and far between.
Straight into an airbus with a cadetship is pretty special, but earning very little in the first 8 months with a good chance of not getting a renewal over the winter months is obviously not great. But the clue is in the title. It wouldn't be called 'Flex' otherwise, would it!
So there is no easy answer and neither path is easy. Hardly surprising given the state of the economy. 'You pays your money, you takes your choice' I believe is the saying. Perhaps a wise man would keep their money in their pocket for the time being!?
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I'm looking for the self sponsored integrated point of view. Offcourse I like to start at a big airline like BA etc
And yes I know that is going to be hard in these times .
I also heard rumours that BA is not going to start the FPP again for the rest couple of years ,and if they need new pilots in the future that they are going for the self sponsered . (but that are just rumours)
I just like to know if if students from FTE and OAA find jobs in an reasonable time after graduation.
and if airlines like ryanair etc prefer one school above the other ?
And yes I know that is going to be hard in these times .
I also heard rumours that BA is not going to start the FPP again for the rest couple of years ,and if they need new pilots in the future that they are going for the self sponsered . (but that are just rumours)
I just like to know if if students from FTE and OAA find jobs in an reasonable time after graduation.
and if airlines like ryanair etc prefer one school above the other ?
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Isos1, if you're hell bent on going integrated, your strategy must be to get onto a cadetship with an airline. These cadetships select candidates before they start training, so would be of no benefit to you if you were a self sponsored student who happened to be at the same school as the cadets.
From what I've been told there were instances in the past where the airlines in question required more cadets at short notice, and then picked up the phone to the relevant flying schools and asked for recommendations for self sponsored students. Then the lucky few self-sponsored students, in the top % of their course finishing their training at the right time would have been put forward.
Can you really see that happening in the near future given the current economic situation?! As you say yourself, the BA FPP has not yet been rerun this year as expected, which suggests that the airlines are not suffering a pilot shortage at the moment - quite the opposite in fact. In light of the above a self-sponsored integrated course seems like a risky strategy at the moment.
Pretty much the only other game in town is Ryanair, who are just as likely to take you from a modular background. The £30k saving you make going modular will come in handy for paying for that type rating
...
From what I've been told there were instances in the past where the airlines in question required more cadets at short notice, and then picked up the phone to the relevant flying schools and asked for recommendations for self sponsored students. Then the lucky few self-sponsored students, in the top % of their course finishing their training at the right time would have been put forward.
Can you really see that happening in the near future given the current economic situation?! As you say yourself, the BA FPP has not yet been rerun this year as expected, which suggests that the airlines are not suffering a pilot shortage at the moment - quite the opposite in fact. In light of the above a self-sponsored integrated course seems like a risky strategy at the moment.
Pretty much the only other game in town is Ryanair, who are just as likely to take you from a modular background. The £30k saving you make going modular will come in handy for paying for that type rating
...
Last edited by taxistaxing; 7th Oct 2012 at 10:16.
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If BA does not reopen the FPP again in the near future and they need more cadet pilots, they must be taken from the CTC Wings scheme (there's a contract between both companies).
By the way it is interesting that BA are going to speak in the next CTC open day... they might not announce anything relevant but we will see...
By the way it is interesting that BA are going to speak in the next CTC open day... they might not announce anything relevant but we will see...
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If you look at oxfords latest stats you will see 142 people they say they got a job for of which 93 went to Ryanair. So approx 2/3 of people are now 130k in debt. 49 people got other jobs of which probably they either knew someone or other means. It's clear from those stats your paying an extra 30-40k for the same opportunities bar a select few. I would advise you to have a look at modular options and how best to finish the course with the least debt. That way you can make sustainable decisions going
Forward rather than meeting
Horrendous repayments for the next ten years.
Forward rather than meeting
Horrendous repayments for the next ten years.
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I'll be gentle for once. Use the search function. This has been done to death already.
I do have one question though. What do you intend to do when you finish the course?
I do have one question though. What do you intend to do when you finish the course?
Last edited by PURPLE PITOT; 8th Oct 2012 at 18:51.
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But still the employment statistics don't seem to bad from Oxford . Even in these times most of the students are finding a job , does anyone know how the rates of FTE are ?
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Of those statistics, how many were tagged students and how many went to RYR? See if you can get hold of stats for self sponsored untagged students, who didn't end up at RYR. Lies, damn lies and statistics!
I have been to an open day at Oxford and was told there is a pilot shortage, and to "avoid the negativity on PPrune" !!!
I have been to an open day at Oxford and was told there is a pilot shortage, and to "avoid the negativity on PPrune" !!!
Last edited by taxistaxing; 8th Oct 2012 at 20:16.
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The question he asks rather begs another question, namely how does he know he wants to be a pilot with no flying experience? Or would you suggest he signs up for a zero to hero course with no prior flying experience at all?!
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He wants to enter the industry from which i earn my living. The method he uses will effect my future terms and conditions.
It is most certainly in my interest why he wants to be a pilot.
It is most certainly in my interest why he wants to be a pilot.