Training and Knowledge
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Training and Knowledge
As an experienced MCC instructor of quite a few years and a Captain with two major airlines and an IRE/TRE on medium and large jets, I would like to pass on my thoughts about the standard of trainees coming out of UK flight schools with 250 hours. Most of you think that you are ready to operate in the RHS of something like a B737 or A320. From what I have observed you are miles away from it.
The lack of technical knowledge in safety critical areas is quite honestly shocking. I am not talking about how an RMI works or how to be a met man, but everyday procedures. Most of you know nothing of regulated take off weights (or mass in newspeak), what you would do if you had an engine failure after V1. You do not know the stopping distance on a foggy runway regarding red and white lights or airport markings. You have not developed any flight management skills and most of you don’t have a clue how to fly a SID or a STAR. You have no clue as to ICAO operations and PANS-OPS and a lot of you do not know even what ICAO is. The list goes on and on.
It is not the fault of the students in most cases. The training you receive now is all based on Rote learning and is totally cost driven. The failing falls at the door of the Authority for allowing the system to fail. The reason behind that is mainly cost driven and the lack of properly trained staff.
I have noticed that students from the third world are much more motivated (I suppose that stems from being close to poverty). If you want Europeans in the flight deck in the future then things had better change and fast.
I am hoping that the MPL will rectify a lot of the problems. The only problem there is that the European carriers are not really interested in sponsoring any large number of pilots. MPL is being taken up big time in the Far-East and that is where our future pilots will probably come from.
Quite honestly I now get quite scared sitting in the back as a passenger if anything should go wrong.
The lack of technical knowledge in safety critical areas is quite honestly shocking. I am not talking about how an RMI works or how to be a met man, but everyday procedures. Most of you know nothing of regulated take off weights (or mass in newspeak), what you would do if you had an engine failure after V1. You do not know the stopping distance on a foggy runway regarding red and white lights or airport markings. You have not developed any flight management skills and most of you don’t have a clue how to fly a SID or a STAR. You have no clue as to ICAO operations and PANS-OPS and a lot of you do not know even what ICAO is. The list goes on and on.
It is not the fault of the students in most cases. The training you receive now is all based on Rote learning and is totally cost driven. The failing falls at the door of the Authority for allowing the system to fail. The reason behind that is mainly cost driven and the lack of properly trained staff.
I have noticed that students from the third world are much more motivated (I suppose that stems from being close to poverty). If you want Europeans in the flight deck in the future then things had better change and fast.
I am hoping that the MPL will rectify a lot of the problems. The only problem there is that the European carriers are not really interested in sponsoring any large number of pilots. MPL is being taken up big time in the Far-East and that is where our future pilots will probably come from.
Quite honestly I now get quite scared sitting in the back as a passenger if anything should go wrong.
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What an odd post. Anything particular brought that on?
I'm sure everyone who's fresh out of the wrapper will have a lot to learn, but equally probably wouldn't have got their licences if they didn't meet certain standards.
Everyone was a low-houred newbie once...
I'm sure everyone who's fresh out of the wrapper will have a lot to learn, but equally probably wouldn't have got their licences if they didn't meet certain standards.
Everyone was a low-houred newbie once...
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[QUOTE][Quite honestly I now get quite scared sitting in the back as a passenger if anything should go wrong/QUOTE]
Well I do the same as TD but most of the students that come through my hands are very competent, but just inexperienced, which is what I would expect. Reading the last few posts on AF477 the problem seems to be the captain, combined with incomplete/incorrect training of all the pilots.
Well I do the same as TD but most of the students that come through my hands are very competent, but just inexperienced, which is what I would expect. Reading the last few posts on AF477 the problem seems to be the captain, combined with incomplete/incorrect training of all the pilots.
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250 hours.........ready to operate in the RHS of something like a B737 or A320.
I've seen this on ATRs and Beechs 1900 but on A320s/737s ?
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Be careful with generalisations
I think if you follow the thread on AF447, you will realise why I am concerned and why it would be advantageous to discuss the root cause.
I'm just a lowly PPL but I have been in touch with quite a number of instructors while I was a student pilot and I can tell you that some of them were pretty bad at communicating effectively with the student-pilot both in ground school and while doing air work. Technical proficiency is simply not enough: as an instructor you also have to get the message across (I am a technical trainer by profession). This observation however does not lead me to state that all flight instructors are bad communicators.
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Relieve me from a doubt; are there airlines today that do this ?
I believe my company, amongst others, tries to remedy the above short comings as part of its TQ, Recurrent (including manually recovery of aircraft from unusual attitudes and upsets) and Line Training programmes. But having said that, I'm pretty impressed with the quality of the new guys (and girls) - their knowledge (of things useful) after completion of Line Training appears to be pretty good. If they are deficient in any any area it's people skills, but that comes with experience - sometimes rapidly obtained when discover interesting things in their coffee and meals.
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Relieve me from a doubt; are there airlines today thatdo this ?
Unfortunately yes.
I have trained a very large number of MCC students and it is not just a few who have very poor knowledge. I also agree that the standard of instruction is part of the problem. A lot of ground instructors just read from a book and have no understanding of the subject in the real world.
Unfortunately yes.
I have trained a very large number of MCC students and it is not just a few who have very poor knowledge. I also agree that the standard of instruction is part of the problem. A lot of ground instructors just read from a book and have no understanding of the subject in the real world.
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Well, perhaps this is a lack of experience. But it often breeds arrogance.
If only they KNEW how little they knew, then they'd be a few steps ahead.
I once heard it expressed in this way,
"The problem with these fast trackers is that they have never been alone and scared in an aeroplane!"
You learn alot by frightening yourself.
If only they KNEW how little they knew, then they'd be a few steps ahead.
I once heard it expressed in this way,
"The problem with these fast trackers is that they have never been alone and scared in an aeroplane!"
You learn alot by frightening yourself.
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I agree with Tony, but a large part of the problem is that in the 'old days' such inexperience would fly with a grumpy old 'experienced' Captain and pick up the necessary. Today's 'grumpy young Captain' was him/herself a 250 hour tyro not that long ago and so the spiral starts. Miser has it right "The problem with these fast trackers is that they have never been alone and scared in an aeroplane!" and the mil/single-pilot air taxi route (where you can be) is now less common.
It all depends on 'acceptable risk', and I, like Tony, do not find it 'acceptable' to be in the back with such inexperience 'up front', while the accountants, managers and, of course, those paying the airfares, do. With the spread of the 'wonder-jet' that does it all for you anyway, it appears to be an acceptable risk to this group, whereas the 'dying breed' like TD, me and others just don't want to die that way.
Of course by using AF447 as an example, TD opens a far bigger can of worms - no-one on the flight deck there had '250 hours'..............
It all depends on 'acceptable risk', and I, like Tony, do not find it 'acceptable' to be in the back with such inexperience 'up front', while the accountants, managers and, of course, those paying the airfares, do. With the spread of the 'wonder-jet' that does it all for you anyway, it appears to be an acceptable risk to this group, whereas the 'dying breed' like TD, me and others just don't want to die that way.
Of course by using AF447 as an example, TD opens a far bigger can of worms - no-one on the flight deck there had '250 hours'..............
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no-one on the flight deck there had '250 hours'..............
Or I might rename it: The OM-A/B/C syndrome.
"Everything you have to know is in the book and everything you need to trust is the computer".
With such a credo you can put 250h bums in any seat and you definitely breed that "I know it all" arrogance.
They may well know it all ----- until the s#1t hits the fan. Then they revert to the computer, who has quite often already left the building........
I have to second TD: Brave new world.
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it was a bit shocking to read your post about new pilots coming from their training with fresh certificate yet not ready to really operate as a FO's in real life.
I am in a training business for 20 years now (not aviation) and I am observing declining ability of graduates from universities or even any school to take a job right after their completion. I've been involved into training in various part of world from Europe up to South America and this declining trend seems to exist everywhere.
I am an aviation enthusiast and I use examples from aviation a lot in my lectures and writings simply because it is still an area which is very practical and anything learned can be seen quickly in operation once you leave the apron.
Honestly, I expected that flight schools should be able to prepare trainees for the real world to the degree they can really do their job without any big delay.
My first question is:
What is your idea why it is so (was it better before), in other words - what is the root of this situation?
And another question:
What is done by airlines to overcome this? Do they have some additional training?
I would be grateful if you can answer this and possibly you can even quote this text in your thread if you think it would be beneficial for PPRuNers to read our discussion. I selected PM because I am not an aviation professional in the first place.
Looking forward to your answers,
Pavol (from Slovakia)
I am in a training business for 20 years now (not aviation) and I am observing declining ability of graduates from universities or even any school to take a job right after their completion. I've been involved into training in various part of world from Europe up to South America and this declining trend seems to exist everywhere.
I am an aviation enthusiast and I use examples from aviation a lot in my lectures and writings simply because it is still an area which is very practical and anything learned can be seen quickly in operation once you leave the apron.
Honestly, I expected that flight schools should be able to prepare trainees for the real world to the degree they can really do their job without any big delay.
My first question is:
What is your idea why it is so (was it better before), in other words - what is the root of this situation?
And another question:
What is done by airlines to overcome this? Do they have some additional training?
I would be grateful if you can answer this and possibly you can even quote this text in your thread if you think it would be beneficial for PPRuNers to read our discussion. I selected PM because I am not an aviation professional in the first place.
Looking forward to your answers,
Pavol (from Slovakia)
I think the root cause of this is all down to the demon money.
I am not just looking back to the good old days when everything was better (LOL).
When I did my initial examinations the questions were written, not muti choice. This means the examiner has to know the subject as well and spends time reading and correcting the answer. To save cost and reduce manpower the Authority got rid of that and went to the American system of multi-choice, where you just learn the answer to the question (rote learning). This has recently been highlighted on the news here as one of the problems our school children are suffering. Also the pay for teachers is very low, so the general standard of teaching has fallen dramaticaly.
Some airlines spend the time and money to train properly but this is in a very high cost enviroment. When someone completes a type rating the trainer has very little time to teach basics.
The flight schools are highly cost driven trying to compete with eachother. If you just look at the cost of ATPL ground schools you will see that there is very little money there. The net result is very poor and low paid instructors with very little experience of the industry, hence they just read aloud from a book and dont understand the subject.
Another problem is that the syllabus is ancient and does not reflect the technology and requirements of todays world.
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...But if you can correctly answer crap questions as these, you'll get your EUOPS/JAR license....! 
Q2495 "For inbound procedures, how many copies of the required forms are to be delivered to the public authority in a state?"
A- 3 GEN dec; 3 cargo manifest; 2 simple stores list
B- 2 GEN dec; 3 cargo manifest; 2 simple stores list
C- 3 GEN dec; 3 cargo manifest; 3 simple stores list
D- 3 GEN dec; 2 cargo manifest; 2 simple stores list
Q2478 "The phases related to an aircraft in emergency or believed
in emergency are:"
A- uncertainty phase, alert phase, distress phase.
B- uncertainty phase, urgency phase,distress phase.
C- uncertainty phase, distress phase, urgency phase.
D- uncertainty phase, alert phase, distress phase and urgency phase.
A- 3 GEN dec; 3 cargo manifest; 2 simple stores list
B- 2 GEN dec; 3 cargo manifest; 2 simple stores list
C- 3 GEN dec; 3 cargo manifest; 3 simple stores list
D- 3 GEN dec; 2 cargo manifest; 2 simple stores list
Q2478 "The phases related to an aircraft in emergency or believed
in emergency are:"
A- uncertainty phase, alert phase, distress phase.
B- uncertainty phase, urgency phase,distress phase.
C- uncertainty phase, distress phase, urgency phase.
D- uncertainty phase, alert phase, distress phase and urgency phase.
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The poor standard of instructors is the first place to start looking at! I see two of our retired pilots, who both regularly demonstrated some of the worst CRM I have ever seen, are now MCC instructors!
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Same here
And into that can't fly a DME arc
Can't trim an aircraft.
Have no foundation in the principles of flight.
And I don't think MPL will change anything because its the same schools with the same instructors which are putting out the current issue.
And into that can't fly a DME arc
Can't trim an aircraft.
Have no foundation in the principles of flight.
And I don't think MPL will change anything because its the same schools with the same instructors which are putting out the current issue.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
Just to make the point - ask the average student how they would find the QNH when landing halfway up a mountain in your country of choice. It's the application of the knowledge that counts.
Just to make the point - ask the average student how they would find the QNH when landing halfway up a mountain in your country of choice. It's the application of the knowledge that counts.