CABAIR - General discussion for those involved.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Texas and UK
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Wow man, that's seriously cold. The poor guy is lashing out because he has nowhere to go. You sounds like the kind of chap who would walk up to a guy that lost his legs in Afghanistan dancing around him telling him he shouldn't really be surprised because there's folk that get blown up there every day.
You have that very wrong, my attitude would be total sympathy and support if the guy had lost his legs because no one had told him the area was bobby trapped. However if there were signs up saying beware you might get blown up if you walk over there, and the man was annoyed that a load of other people had not walked through the minefield with him to protect his legs then I would show little sympathy.
Even less sympathy if he then attacked the group who put the sign up, claiming it had stopped others getting their legs blown off and as a result he had been more liable to injury.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
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Well said GoldenEaglePilot. Rule 1. NEVER PAY THE FULL AMOUNT UPFRONT.
Id be gutted if i lost that much money, but maybe a little more research might have saved him some heartache. Id prefer to keep hold of my money and know where it was going, no need to pay £68k straight away. He had no "get out" clause. what if something happened to him after day one in the school and he couldn't fly anymore... would he get all his money back!? NO...
Id be gutted if i lost that much money, but maybe a little more research might have saved him some heartache. Id prefer to keep hold of my money and know where it was going, no need to pay £68k straight away. He had no "get out" clause. what if something happened to him after day one in the school and he couldn't fly anymore... would he get all his money back!? NO...
Well said GoldenEaglePilot. Rule 1. NEVER PAY THE FULL AMOUNT UPFRONT.
Id be gutted if i lost that much money, but maybe a little more research might have saved him some heartache. Id prefer to keep hold of my money and know where it was going, no need to pay £68k straight away. He had no "get out" clause. what if something happened to him after day one in the school and he couldn't fly anymore... would he get all his money back!? NO...
Id be gutted if i lost that much money, but maybe a little more research might have saved him some heartache. Id prefer to keep hold of my money and know where it was going, no need to pay £68k straight away. He had no "get out" clause. what if something happened to him after day one in the school and he couldn't fly anymore... would he get all his money back!? NO...
Join Date: Jun 2006
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G-STRX Writes
What Cabair actually wrote in that email was that they would like to ADVERTISE on Pprune, but couldn't until the moderators killed the thread. Why G-STRX can't see how offensive this would be to any self-respecting moderator with half an ounce of journalistic integrity is lost on me.
Besides being tasteless, this offer of a quid pro quo could be seen as an attempt to bribe Pprune, which would be a violation of anti-corruption legislation. This is probably least of the management's offences though.
This website (PPRUNE) knew about the predicament of Cabair, its staff, and most importantly its students. Cabair's CEO at the time emailed the Moderator to ask to stop the negative threads as it was damaging the brand and putting current students future in jeopardy..........PPRUNE decided to publish this email.......classy move.
Besides being tasteless, this offer of a quid pro quo could be seen as an attempt to bribe Pprune, which would be a violation of anti-corruption legislation. This is probably least of the management's offences though.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 32°55'22"S 151°46'56"E
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The Cabair situation has been developing for the last 18-24 months. A little bit of research online would have shown that.
That being said, there are still many people who don't really use the internet for background knowledge. I've met many people around flying clubs and schools who have never heard of pprune, and are working through the ATPL's based on knowledge gleaned from flying clubs, schools and a friends.
That being said, there are still many people who don't really use the internet for background knowledge. I've met many people around flying clubs and schools who have never heard of pprune, and are working through the ATPL's based on knowledge gleaned from flying clubs, schools and a friends.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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I am sorry but this has to be a wind-up. Don't come running to blame someone else because you were stupid enough to pay that sort of money upfront to a flying school of all places!! If you had bothered to do any research you could have easily found out that the Cabair Group was in serious trouble. NEVER NEVER pay a large upfront sum to ANY flying school unless you do so on a credit card which will offer you protection against bankruptcy of a service provider. To then put in another lump sum to try and keep Cabair going is just totally bizarre. You can blame anyone you like, the fact of the matter is though that plenty of people were capable of doing their research and as a result didn't go to Cabair.
If you had bothered to do any research you could have easily found out that the Cabair Group was in serious trouble. NEVER NEVER pay a large upfront sum to ANY flying school unless you do so on a credit card which will offer you protection against bankruptcy of a service provider. To then put in another lump sum to try and keep Cabair going is just totally bizarre. You can blame anyone you like, the fact of the matter is though that plenty of people were capable of doing their research and as a result didn't go to Cabair.
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Well.. Congratulations to G STRX on one point..
..it takes balls of iron to publicly announce how grossly stupid, naive and braindead you've been.
I can't feel sorrow for this guy..just despair. He has only himself to blame..no-one else.. not Cabair..not Pprune... no-one. Period.
I can't feel sorrow for this guy..just despair. He has only himself to blame..no-one else.. not Cabair..not Pprune... no-one. Period.
That being said, there are still many people who don't really use the internet for background knowledge.
One afternoon last Autumn at LHR T5 I met one not so young but very keen idealistic wanabee who was about to attend one of the pilot fairs that was doing the rounds at the time. The guy was very clued up about the airlines, knew what he needed to do in the way of exams, flying and the like.....in fact it transpired he'd already booked himself a course of some sort at Cabair...
.... No, he hadn't heard the stories about Cabair that were circulating, and he had never heard of Pprune 
Needless to say a bit of advice about money and then useful websites was offered, so I really hope he isn't G-STRX.Sad to say it's innocents to the slaughter, intent of "living the dream", thinking that all in aviation are knights in shining armour and totally unable to believe that some people prey on that naivity.
I know Pprune is scorned by some "proper" pilots but this section alone is worth it's weight in gold, if only because it allows us old f**ts, long out of training, to keep our ears to the ground and have something useful to say when asked for our advice about becoming a pilot....
Join Date: Apr 2009
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lap 1104 - Please bear in mind the following general rules regarding flight training:-
- assessment days are an old marketing ploy to try and get your business. By making a course "appear" difficult to get into a course provider can then price it accordingly. They can also keep out the wasters that although would provide some much needed cash would more than likely cause trouble and bring down the tone of the school.
- you are the customer and they need YOU, not the other way around.
- the GAPAN assessments are the only truly independent ones that I am aware of. Bear in mind that most other assessments are either marketing ploys or else they are run by outfits such as CTC who have a particular "mould" that they are looking to produce.
- never pay up front to avail of discounts etc. Put it onto your credit card.
- assessment days are an old marketing ploy to try and get your business. By making a course "appear" difficult to get into a course provider can then price it accordingly. They can also keep out the wasters that although would provide some much needed cash would more than likely cause trouble and bring down the tone of the school.
- you are the customer and they need YOU, not the other way around.
- the GAPAN assessments are the only truly independent ones that I am aware of. Bear in mind that most other assessments are either marketing ploys or else they are run by outfits such as CTC who have a particular "mould" that they are looking to produce.
- never pay up front to avail of discounts etc. Put it onto your credit card.
Join Date: May 2001
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the way I read the post is its just a moan that the OP got stitched over by CABAIR and not some other poor sod who hadn't payed their money yet.
Very understandable to be honest.
As for the rest you can't expect people outside to allow innocent gullable wannbies to piss there familys capital up the wall.
Personally I am glad PPrune towers posted that email. It showed everyone what people were dealing with.
The fact that 20 of you have lost life changing amounts of money is very sad and to be honest I don't think anyone is any way pleased that you have. What we are pleased about is that potentially another 100 students haven't been pulled in to loose money as well.
The more experenced pilots will have other views about the reduction of training capacity. I recon its about 150 a year been taken out the system. Another 2-300 places removed and there might be a change to current recruting proccesses
Very understandable to be honest.
As for the rest you can't expect people outside to allow innocent gullable wannbies to piss there familys capital up the wall.
Personally I am glad PPrune towers posted that email. It showed everyone what people were dealing with.
The fact that 20 of you have lost life changing amounts of money is very sad and to be honest I don't think anyone is any way pleased that you have. What we are pleased about is that potentially another 100 students haven't been pulled in to loose money as well.
The more experenced pilots will have other views about the reduction of training capacity. I recon its about 150 a year been taken out the system. Another 2-300 places removed and there might be a change to current recruting proccesses
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Class Action?
Has anyone considered getting together and launching a Class Action against the CAA regarding Cabair? Better do it before the 1st of April (EASA Doomsday tho') You could just win. Time to get the legal vultures in on this one. My opinion is that the CAA has a severe dereliction of care, maybe not the first time, but definitely the second. Just my humble opinion mind!
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Class action - cracking idea... unfortunately the CAA have not technically done anything wrong. The only reference that I can find to becoming an approved CPL/IR FTO (in a financial sense) is:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1175Issue1.pdf , section 17.
What do they do with that data? The Lord only knows - from the recent past history it seems irrelevant, other than for apologists at the aquarium to deliver platitudes and say 'all was done in order'. As in:
FLYER Airportal - General Aviation News
I, for one do not want them to start policing the financial acumen of directors and company finances. Stick to doing a damned good job of world beating safety regulation. However, it intrigues me that the statutory requirement to provide a [limited] safety net to passengers (ATOL) seems to be fairly well run, yet they cannot (will not?) provide a minimal safety net for trainees who can only train at the organisations to whom they have given the nod.
This is stuff for corporate law to be amended and the FSA to actually do their job and examine the finances of FTOs who are, to all intents and purposes, behaving as banks.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1175Issue1.pdf , section 17.
What do they do with that data? The Lord only knows - from the recent past history it seems irrelevant, other than for apologists at the aquarium to deliver platitudes and say 'all was done in order'. As in:
FLYER Airportal - General Aviation News
I, for one do not want them to start policing the financial acumen of directors and company finances. Stick to doing a damned good job of world beating safety regulation. However, it intrigues me that the statutory requirement to provide a [limited] safety net to passengers (ATOL) seems to be fairly well run, yet they cannot (will not?) provide a minimal safety net for trainees who can only train at the organisations to whom they have given the nod.
This is stuff for corporate law to be amended and the FSA to actually do their job and examine the finances of FTOs who are, to all intents and purposes, behaving as banks.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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There is a very easy solution to all of this. First get the schools to register a bond with the CAA. This cuts out the muppets for a start. And secondly have the CAA operate an escrow account whereby the trainee lodges money with them and in turn cash is drawn down as lessons are flown or costs incurred. Given the technological age we live in it would be very easy for all the parties involved to access account details and find out balances and undertake all of the required checks and balances.
The CAA can get interest on the money held to offset their administration costs and if necessary charge a small transation fee to make up any difference.
Of course we know they won't do anything about this issue as they have argued for years that its not in their remit. Until someone affected challenges them in court then nothing will happen.
The CAA can get interest on the money held to offset their administration costs and if necessary charge a small transation fee to make up any difference.
Of course we know they won't do anything about this issue as they have argued for years that its not in their remit. Until someone affected challenges them in court then nothing will happen.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Texas and UK
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Using a commercial Escrow service would work. The compny providing the training would be able to make arrangements with their bank for facilities based on the safe knowledge that the fee's would be secure in Escrow.
The student would be protected against the demise of a company (such as Cabair) payments to the supplier could be triggered by key performance achievements (Exams taken, hours flown, ratings issued etc). The money would be held securely by an independent third party company protecting both supplier and student.
So the obvious question, cost? For such an arrangement normally 3 - 10% of the total value. Yes, it would add a cost to the course, but in my mind that cost should be regarded as insurance by the student against loosing all the money paid up front.
There are more obvious questions like how can the CAA issue a TRTO to a dormant company? If you read CAA Standards document 34, then that should not be possible. Recently it came to light that is exactly what happened with another company (not Cabair). In its own standards document the CAA talk of minimum financial requirements for a company, yet it clearly made a huge mistake by issuing a TRTO to a dormant company.
The student would be protected against the demise of a company (such as Cabair) payments to the supplier could be triggered by key performance achievements (Exams taken, hours flown, ratings issued etc). The money would be held securely by an independent third party company protecting both supplier and student.
So the obvious question, cost? For such an arrangement normally 3 - 10% of the total value. Yes, it would add a cost to the course, but in my mind that cost should be regarded as insurance by the student against loosing all the money paid up front.
There are more obvious questions like how can the CAA issue a TRTO to a dormant company? If you read CAA Standards document 34, then that should not be possible. Recently it came to light that is exactly what happened with another company (not Cabair). In its own standards document the CAA talk of minimum financial requirements for a company, yet it clearly made a huge mistake by issuing a TRTO to a dormant company.
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Genghis - I agree - but seeing as the CAA believe finance is of interest to them when approving the FTOs, I believe they should put this at the top of their 'to do' list.
It isn't good enough to abrogate all responsibility with this approval privilege. They regulate students very strongly and earn a not inconsiderable sum from the training process.
MCDU2 has raised an interesting point, but I don't think the interest earned would cover the cost of administering an escrow scheme. The cost of flight training will have to go up, but I believe peace of mind is an important part of the training process.
Another point he mentions makes me wonder... Why is it there is no standard training curriculum? If this was the case, you could just take up with a different FTO from the point you had reached before. No sending of records from a now defunct organisation who mightn't care less if the records are transferred.
It isn't good enough to abrogate all responsibility with this approval privilege. They regulate students very strongly and earn a not inconsiderable sum from the training process.
MCDU2 has raised an interesting point, but I don't think the interest earned would cover the cost of administering an escrow scheme. The cost of flight training will have to go up, but I believe peace of mind is an important part of the training process.
Another point he mentions makes me wonder... Why is it there is no standard training curriculum? If this was the case, you could just take up with a different FTO from the point you had reached before. No sending of records from a now defunct organisation who mightn't care less if the records are transferred.
Join Date: Oct 2010
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goldeneaglepilot
Quite right. They are trying to appear to do the right thing - everyone becomes accountable, you split the accountability, nobody is accountable.
This is commonplace in public service these days, a legacy of the 'let's make ourselves cute and cuddly', HR driven platitudinous Tony Blair PC brigade nonsense era.
I can feel my blood pressure rising...
yet it clearly made a huge mistake by issuing a TRTO to a dormant company.
This is commonplace in public service these days, a legacy of the 'let's make ourselves cute and cuddly', HR driven platitudinous Tony Blair PC brigade nonsense era.
I can feel my blood pressure rising...
Join Date: May 2001
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Why is it there is no standard training curriculum?
The caa make you have each one different. If you use an already appoved one it will just get thrown back at you.
Its the same with AOC's and it gets to the stupid position that the same bloke writing the part A's and B 's get them knocked back and told to change something which they had been previously been told to put in for another AOC.
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MCDU2
Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.
By the time you get to something like this, pay as you go (preferably by credit card) achieves all of this without any added hassle.
The reality is that these training providers need to be properly capitalised where the shareholders are taking their fair share of the risk, not loading the financial risk onto the students and suppliers.
Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.
I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.
We might not like it but it is necessary.
Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.
By the time you get to something like this, pay as you go (preferably by credit card) achieves all of this without any added hassle.
The reality is that these training providers need to be properly capitalised where the shareholders are taking their fair share of the risk, not loading the financial risk onto the students and suppliers.
Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.
I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.
We might not like it but it is necessary.