Pilot training or University (2011)

[JohnRayner]

A good degree from a good university is demonstration that you can perform to a certain level intellectually and organizationally. The degree choice you made might also say something about the person you were when you were 18.

I agree with those who say that degrees shouldn't be viewed as some sort of "back-up". They're really not. Unless they're vocational and the structure exists to bring you up to speed if you've been out of the loop of the given profession for a long time.

Also, a simple truth of Uni education in GB plc circa early 21st century is that unless you do a good degree at a demonstrably good uni, and get a good award, then all you have is something that everyone else has, in line with current govt educational policy.


WWW said something along the lines of "different strokes for different folks" and in this he's right. Higher education isn't for everyone. I went to Uni and did Medicine, my younger brother scraped past his GCSEs, but has gone on to start his own tree surgery business. He spends all day getting paid to hang out in trees with big pieces of kit which he loves, while I get to go work in hospital on shifts, up until recently only seeing my missus every 2-3 weeks for any length of time, which I simply don't enjoy! The point is, he's doing very well, thank you, off the back of bugger all by way of a school education.

I think a big problem in GB has always been that people are expected to make big decisions about what to do with the rest of their lives at way too early an age. There should be a bit of slack to get out, do some stuff, and find out what you like.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I wouldn't think of a degree as a back up plan. But, chosen wisely, it can be a huge bonus within a pilots career. I won't bore people with the details, but if I were to look back at my career and cross off all the opportunities that I was able to take advantage of because of my degree there would be a lot missing. And incidentally, I'm not talking about having the piece of paper, but rather the knowledge and skills gained.

And I only got a 3rd - too busy arsing around in bulldogs!

A good solid technical education will never be wasted time in a technology dominated industry like aviation. You just need a career planning horizon that extends a bit further than 'get atpl - get rhs'.

[MUFC_fan]

If say, you got 4 decent (A-A*) grades at a Grammar/Private school or something along those lines, it would not be wise to go to University would it? Unless of course it WAS a private school and then you could afford both!

What I am trying to say is, people come out of University with large debts - adding £40k+ to it isn't exactly going to help is it?

[Re-Heat]

I think a big problem in GB has always been that people are expected to make big decisions about what to do with the rest of their lives at way too early an age.

This is a valid point, and certainly of issue in the public policy spectrum; however, one cannot use this argument when working through the system as it stands today.

I would love to be an idealist, but given an awareness of the structure at present, you would be foolish to ignore it!

The debt issue is only partially of relevance - if you have only SLC debts, your position in gaining finance for training is better, as those debts are paid only from earnings. However, if - as many people do - you run up further debts, your position is destroyed with regards to obtaining financing. On the other hand, a school leaver does not have the same strength to gain any debt financing for training simply by reference to their education and age, which the bank will also take into account.

There is no simple answer, hence why I would suggest that each person had different needs, preferences and best possible routes.

[MajesticMav]

Good posts above^^
To add my two penny's worth. I started training for my fATPL almost straight out of sixth form with a-levels in Maths, Physics and Chem (no matter how much I hate it). Anyway I started in early Q2 2008 and finished my PPL and ATPL ground school with exams by mid December. All this time I believed I had what it takes to become a pilot and for the most part I did. I went about through my ATPL's with ease gaining an 90% avg thanks to my Maths and Physics A-levels.

But heres where it started to go a little funny. The global recession kicking in and a low prospect of finding a job even with family in aviation. Now I'm not saying its impossible. In the mean time I had applied to a well known Cadet program and had got through my first stage. With a sense of belief I went on to the second stage but unfortunately didn't make it. Now my initial dissapointment was short lived as I realized that I was better than 95% of the other applicants in terms of psychometric tests and that was the first time I went through that type of computer based one. Anyhow it was time to put the thinking cap on and figure out my next step, go and finish my hour building CPL and IR and keep applying on a hope or somehow get funding to get my own type rating after that (I'm sure everyones thought of it at some stage). I chose neither since it didn't seem right to get my licence in such a hurry and pay for my Type Rating that I feel a company ought to pay for. Instead I chose to go to University.

Why? Well, I know I'm going to be a pilot and I know I have the ability to do it but when I have time to spare due to the recession I should get something that will help me gain an advantage later on in my career. So in short its about the choices you make and the how well you manage your time. I believe that by 2012 the airlines in UK will get better (Olympics and all). So my best gamble was to wait for a time around then. I have some friends who waltzed into jobs straight out of A-levels but that was a different time. And a degree for me seems like a logical and safe choice that would not leave me twirling my thumbs.

[MUFC_fan]

I really hope it works for you MM yet for some people money is a major issue and getting half way through the training and then going to University is financial suicide.

As I said, I hope all goes well for you.

[lander66]

Count yourself EXTREMELY lucky MajesticMav, as you are one of the few who can afford an fATPL straight out of Sixth Form and also afford to go to uni as well, right after that.

I don't begrudge you the opportunity as we would all take it if we could(although probably in the opposite order to remain current with your flying).

I suspect also that you will not be one needing to struggle to find decent work in order to stay current in the long hunt for jobs. Could be 2012 could be 2015, who knows...

Good luck!

[Bjarnum]

Hi,

This question is aimed at employed pilots:

Quick Background: I am a EU Citizen, have a FAA PPL, a Bachelors Degree in Political Science. I will be doing modular training in the future as I have access to Single engine plane at $60/hr wet and Multi at $120/hr wet and current US Navy fast jet flight instructor at $15 an hour (USDs). I have been through NetJets and Cathay Cadet programme, didnt make NetJets and said no to Cathay. I have 20,000 euro from guaranteed state loans towards flight training and the rest of the training costs I can cover from my own funds.

I now have a decision to make and would like to know what you think about my OPTIONS:

OPTION 1: Go to university for a year and obtain a MSc in Space Studies in Strasbourg France (have obtained a scholarship from European Space Agency I just have to cover living expenses in Strasbourg (around 10000euro for a year). After 12 months with my MSc, then do my ATPL and CPL/IR/ME/MCC (Takes two years in total).

OPTION 2. Do not obtain a Masters and begin my ATPL and CPL/IR/ME right now as the market seems to be picking up. (Takes one year).

In other words, will a Masters degree be helpful in applying for a piloting position once I have my newly minted licenses? And will being a year older (30) start prejudicing my chances or will the Master Degree out weigh the added year to my age.

What would you do based on this information? Reply by voting for OPTION "1" or "2", and motivate your answer if you feel you have the time. Please note I would like to hear from qualified pilots who have been in the business for a while.

Thanks. (For those that contributed, I will eventually let everyone know what I chose to do).

[Poeli]

I had to ask myself the same question last month. I went for the master. If you can get a scholarship like that in France I wouldn't hesitate and take it! It's a once in a lifetime chance, and you still have time to take lessons for the other licences imo.

[cavortingcheetah]

OPTION 1.

Without a second of hesitation.

Bias.
I am an old pilot so I can only look back with experience and not forward in hope. (Well, not as far as a flying career is concerned anyway.) But then I probably sound like a father figure which is not necessarily the best medium for advice.

Reasons.
You are obviously a very academic smart cookie and hard working too of course. So it can be assumed you will achieve your MSc within one year.
I think that there can be no doubt that a year spent on an MSc will far outweigh any differential in the synaptic age curve between 29 and 31.
It is also my opinion that a Master's degree in a serious subject, not basket weaving for example, would be of enormous advantage if the aviation business gets tough in the future. It confers almost unlimited street cred.
Besides that, I have a feeling that other opportunities with more limitless horizons might lie at the end of such a degree.
Good luck.

[Halfwayback]

University or Not? (2011)

A new thread to answer a recurrent question

[usualguy]

320, 2000h, US ATP, flight instructor, JAA CPL...
no flying job since 2.5 years.
speak 3 languages.

now too old. over 40 yo.airlines want pay to fly pilots, and young.

still want make a CPL?

I have a master degree in Mechanic, I can still rely on this.Industry will take me back if I need.
Can you do the same at 40? if not, you are in big trouble.

[Lew747]

I chose to get a job straight after sixth form. I DO regret not going to university. I think it's because most of my friends went and told me about how much of a great time it is whilst I was stuck back at home working.

However a lot of them have now all finished their degrees with most going back into mundane jobs that anyone could do whereas I know have 3 years of work experience and have worked my way into a managerial role. It has allowed me to fund my PPL, Hour Building and of course...car! As well as a hefty amount towards my professional flight training. Something I could not have done if I had gone to uni!

Maybe in the future whilst I'm still young I might think of going back as a mature student if the industry still has not picked up or opt for an open university degree. I like to think my current job is a 'means to an end' so guess for the time being I will stick it out. Never know what's coming around the corner!

[Bjarnum]

Just an update, I decided on option One. Currently at University and now applying for an internship with Virgin Galactic.

[HrCookie]

I have now read this thread through, and it has given me food for thought. I myself am 18 years old, will be 19 this summer, and is at the last term of the Gymnasium, it is Danish, (im from Denmark) and equivalent to Hight school i gues. Here I have English at A level, and both Mathematics and Physics at the B trough levels, where I get rigtight good grades.

Here, to February Im going to Gatwick to get my JAA Class 1 Initial Medical and FAA Class 1 Initial Medical, to be sure I can become a pilot.
But when I'm done with school this summer, I am unsure about my approach. I was sure that I, as Lew747 wrote, would work for about 2 years while my friends are at university and then go to the USA, to become a pilot at Phoenix East Aviation due to their Scandinavian program.
So I considered going to university, but decided it was a bad idea, because it's not free, in the sence that I'll have to leave home, pay for an apartment, and may borrow money, which you wrote, can destroy my financial foundation for becoming a pilot.

But still think most of you that it pays of to have a university education, when you want to train as a pilot?

Greetings from a worried Danish soul.

[Jockster]

Do both!!
Kingston and university of Buckinghamshire offer an aviation studies degree that incorporates the EASA ATPL learning objectives. You do some of the course at the university with modules at BCFTC in Bournemouth. You leave university with a degree, Atpl exam passes and a frozen atpl.

[HrCookie]

hello Jockster,

Can you possibly provide a link to the specific education? and is the education for international students, ie students who are not from the United Kingdom?

The ATPL you end out with, it is of the same snadart as one from a regular flight school and will the airlines not prefer one over the other?
I think in relation to optaining hours. At the flight school i am looking at, it is possible to become an instructor afterwards, giving 3 - 500t multi-engine hours, and up to 1,200 hours total.

So the question is surely whether it should be several hours vs. a university degree.

[Bjarnum]

@ HrCookie

Going to University will provide you with valuable insights into life before committing to a career and massive debt. I know Denmark well, University is free and you get a monthly grant of around 400 Euro for a period of up to 6 odd years. You even get this grant when studying abroad. Dont go to University for some 'Airline Management' course, invest in yourself and your intelectual mind and read History, Philosophy or some classical discipline. Focus on picking up another language and experiences. If I had to do it again, and lived in Denmark, and had good marks, I would go to Medical School. Its free, become a medical doctor and then get your licenses thereafter.

My 3 cents.

-

[mad_jock]

Kingston and university of Buckinghamshire offer an aviation studies degree that incorporates the EASA ATPL learning objectives

There is university education and going to some hairdressing school/ nursing college which calls itself a Uni.

Any degree which has ATPL studies as part of the course is not a proper degree and in the grand scale of things is a waste of your time and the stupidly high course fees.

Having a degree as such doesn't give you much benefit as a pilot. Locking yourself into an industry which is a bastard for peaks and lows and very dependent on the economy state is plain daft. Choose your degree with your brain not your heart.

[Groundloop]

Any degree which has ATPL studies as part of the course is not a proper degree

So says the World's expert on University degrees!