Quick rant....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sussex
Age: 42
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick rant....
Just thought I'd throw this out there.
After having recently having completed my PPL in Florida I noticed a very 'night & day' difference between the USA and the UK in regards to aviation and the general attitude towards the industry.
I have to say I am saddened and disappointed that there is so much negativity in the UK aviation industry, and by this I mean generally the wannabe's amongst us. My comments here do not apply to all of you, and so if you are like me and are positive and will work hard from the bottom up to succeed I am not directing my comments at you. It frustrates me that there is so much negativity and that so many of you are prepared to slag people and organisations off, belittle companies and it would seem go out of your way to put off any other newbies who just want to pursue their dream and become a professional pilot.
As a 29 year old who has been pretty successful I think I have a pretty good leg to stand on when I say that nothing comes for free in this world, and that it takes hard work to make your mark, become successful in whatever career you choose, and usually takes years of commitment, dedication, and resilience to slowly claw your way up the ladder. This is not usually any different for any industry, and I can assure you I know first hand the meaning of hard work and putting in the time to climb that ladder. It took me 8 years of hard work at my company to finally find that job that I considered to be a successful persons job. Not that I didn't feel important and successful before but my current job role finally made me feel like I have become something.
Why should aviation be any different? If anything it should be harder as it is such a specialist industry and even just having a PPL makes me feel special and privileged. After all, how many people out there have a pilots license? In a company of over 400 people I only know one other who is a qualified pilot, and that makes me feel damn good. Aviation is a niche thing, something that deserves time, hard work, and respect and if it means working your ass off to land that first job flying a turbo prop and earning £20k a year then so be it. That's life, and you can't expect to jump into a Jumbo and take home £60k a year. I started at my company on £7k per year, and 12 years later I have a basic of £35k with the potential for another £10k or so on top as bonus. Am I bitter that other companies like mine pay their sales guys £55k per year basic? NO. I am where I am, and in anything I do with my life I realise that I will need to work hard, work smart, be proactive, be creative, look for opportunities and take them, or if they're not there then maybe I need to find a way to create opportunities. Sir Alan Sugar didn't get to where he is through being bitter and twisted and thinking that the world owed him something. He grafted, he tried new things and worked hard. His dedication and resilience paid off and now he can look back and be satisfied that his success was his doing.
Come on people. The bitterness and negativity needs to stop. The companies in this industry, Easy Jet, CTC, OAA etc etc are businesses and they are successful because they work hard, find opportunities and exploit them. It's called business and it's the name of game. Stop being bitter and trying to rebel and sleight these organisations, and instead accept that you have chosen to be a part of this industry and that if you want to get that dream job and fly A380's around the world then you need to play by this industries rules. I agree that some things are a pain, and put newbies at a disadvantage, but I can assure you that the ones who succeed wont be the ones who sit on here slagging everyone and everything off. They will be the one's who work hard, get their head down, get on with it, and play their cards right. Life is tough, and landing the dream job is tough, but moaning about it wont get you anywhere.
Just a thought
After having recently having completed my PPL in Florida I noticed a very 'night & day' difference between the USA and the UK in regards to aviation and the general attitude towards the industry.
I have to say I am saddened and disappointed that there is so much negativity in the UK aviation industry, and by this I mean generally the wannabe's amongst us. My comments here do not apply to all of you, and so if you are like me and are positive and will work hard from the bottom up to succeed I am not directing my comments at you. It frustrates me that there is so much negativity and that so many of you are prepared to slag people and organisations off, belittle companies and it would seem go out of your way to put off any other newbies who just want to pursue their dream and become a professional pilot.
As a 29 year old who has been pretty successful I think I have a pretty good leg to stand on when I say that nothing comes for free in this world, and that it takes hard work to make your mark, become successful in whatever career you choose, and usually takes years of commitment, dedication, and resilience to slowly claw your way up the ladder. This is not usually any different for any industry, and I can assure you I know first hand the meaning of hard work and putting in the time to climb that ladder. It took me 8 years of hard work at my company to finally find that job that I considered to be a successful persons job. Not that I didn't feel important and successful before but my current job role finally made me feel like I have become something.
Why should aviation be any different? If anything it should be harder as it is such a specialist industry and even just having a PPL makes me feel special and privileged. After all, how many people out there have a pilots license? In a company of over 400 people I only know one other who is a qualified pilot, and that makes me feel damn good. Aviation is a niche thing, something that deserves time, hard work, and respect and if it means working your ass off to land that first job flying a turbo prop and earning £20k a year then so be it. That's life, and you can't expect to jump into a Jumbo and take home £60k a year. I started at my company on £7k per year, and 12 years later I have a basic of £35k with the potential for another £10k or so on top as bonus. Am I bitter that other companies like mine pay their sales guys £55k per year basic? NO. I am where I am, and in anything I do with my life I realise that I will need to work hard, work smart, be proactive, be creative, look for opportunities and take them, or if they're not there then maybe I need to find a way to create opportunities. Sir Alan Sugar didn't get to where he is through being bitter and twisted and thinking that the world owed him something. He grafted, he tried new things and worked hard. His dedication and resilience paid off and now he can look back and be satisfied that his success was his doing.
Come on people. The bitterness and negativity needs to stop. The companies in this industry, Easy Jet, CTC, OAA etc etc are businesses and they are successful because they work hard, find opportunities and exploit them. It's called business and it's the name of game. Stop being bitter and trying to rebel and sleight these organisations, and instead accept that you have chosen to be a part of this industry and that if you want to get that dream job and fly A380's around the world then you need to play by this industries rules. I agree that some things are a pain, and put newbies at a disadvantage, but I can assure you that the ones who succeed wont be the ones who sit on here slagging everyone and everything off. They will be the one's who work hard, get their head down, get on with it, and play their cards right. Life is tough, and landing the dream job is tough, but moaning about it wont get you anywhere.
Just a thought
Hear Hear.
I've worked in aviation all my adult life and seen plenty of this, although seldom paid as a pilot. The sense of entitlement you describe seems to exist in young civil pilots and young engineering graduates - in reality both usually get it beaten out of them within the first five years in their respective workplaces. So does overcommunication, which on net is why you hear so much of it.
G
I've worked in aviation all my adult life and seen plenty of this, although seldom paid as a pilot. The sense of entitlement you describe seems to exist in young civil pilots and young engineering graduates - in reality both usually get it beaten out of them within the first five years in their respective workplaces. So does overcommunication, which on net is why you hear so much of it.
G
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EPKK
Age: 39
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jambone,
there is nothing like 'guaranteed' job. Neither for doctors nor for lawyers, pilots, engineers etc.
I'm a law school graduate. I've decided to become a pilot (after 2 years in law firm). I can tell you that my university fellows share the same frustration as newbies in aviation. It's life. Who said that success is an easy thing to reach??
Aviation industry is just like any other. I see no difference between flight school and law school graduates. Not only in Poland, where I come from. My spouse has graduated law in London. She (and her friends from Med School) can tell you sth. about 'guaranteed' succes.
ct8282. Thanks for your post. I've came back to Europe from the US and I felt as depresse as you were. I think this is solely a matter of approach and attitude. I take yours
there is nothing like 'guaranteed' job. Neither for doctors nor for lawyers, pilots, engineers etc.
I'm a law school graduate. I've decided to become a pilot (after 2 years in law firm). I can tell you that my university fellows share the same frustration as newbies in aviation. It's life. Who said that success is an easy thing to reach??
Aviation industry is just like any other. I see no difference between flight school and law school graduates. Not only in Poland, where I come from. My spouse has graduated law in London. She (and her friends from Med School) can tell you sth. about 'guaranteed' succes.
ct8282. Thanks for your post. I've came back to Europe from the US and I felt as depresse as you were. I think this is solely a matter of approach and attitude. I take yours
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sussex
Age: 42
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks peeps. I'm glad you all responded the way you have. I was expecting the normal mob to jump on the thread and kick off about how this industry is sh*t, and how the FTO's are criminals and exploit us poor wannabies.
I wrote the thread as I was doing my normal scanning of the forum and after reading soooo many new and old threads about this so called sh*t industry and how I shouldn't waste my time flying a plane ever again I started thinking back over my life and really challenging myself and my aspirations to be a pilot. Instead of feeling down and put off I realised that in my life so far I have had to work hard and generate my own success. No one handed it to me on a plate, my parents didn't give me any money, I just spoke to the right people, made the right enquiries, took opportunities when they arose and worked hard. Nothing more than that.
Flying is no different. It's true that there are not enough jobs to go around the many qualified pilots but is this different to any other industry, really? I wonder what the moaners think should happen. Perhaps they think that the airlines should buy more Boeings and Airbuses so that we can all have a job. They seem to forget that the airlines operate a certain number of aircraft to fulfill their passenger demand. Perhaps then the moaners think that more people should fly more often so that the airlines could buy more aircraft and we could all have a job?
At the end of the day, the industry is where it is. Life is tough, and competition for any job in any industry will exist. That's the game and rather than just sending hundreds of CV's and then moaning that no one will interview them, perhaps the 'moaners' should look for ways to differentiate themselves and make their application stand out.
Have a great day peeps.
I wrote the thread as I was doing my normal scanning of the forum and after reading soooo many new and old threads about this so called sh*t industry and how I shouldn't waste my time flying a plane ever again I started thinking back over my life and really challenging myself and my aspirations to be a pilot. Instead of feeling down and put off I realised that in my life so far I have had to work hard and generate my own success. No one handed it to me on a plate, my parents didn't give me any money, I just spoke to the right people, made the right enquiries, took opportunities when they arose and worked hard. Nothing more than that.
Flying is no different. It's true that there are not enough jobs to go around the many qualified pilots but is this different to any other industry, really? I wonder what the moaners think should happen. Perhaps they think that the airlines should buy more Boeings and Airbuses so that we can all have a job. They seem to forget that the airlines operate a certain number of aircraft to fulfill their passenger demand. Perhaps then the moaners think that more people should fly more often so that the airlines could buy more aircraft and we could all have a job?
At the end of the day, the industry is where it is. Life is tough, and competition for any job in any industry will exist. That's the game and rather than just sending hundreds of CV's and then moaning that no one will interview them, perhaps the 'moaners' should look for ways to differentiate themselves and make their application stand out.
Have a great day peeps.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London & Oslo
Age: 54
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Negativity, why?
What's there to be negative against in the industry?
Getting paid 1000 Euro a month for 18 months, after paying £30.000 for your own TR!
People giving promises that they never keep!
Having only been qualified for few months, I have to admit much of the negativity is in fact based on facts. It seems that for some it seems to be a fools game, all THEY WANT is YOUR/OUR money in any way they can get it.
I believe as a PPL you will have very little basis to voice your opinion, as you will not have had any experience in what job search in this sector entitles. I have done business for 20 years, and always been honest, it does not seem that these are ethics aviation work with.
I am not bitter, I am just stating how it really is, unless you have very good contacts (and even then it is not easy), there is very little chance get a sniff of a job at the moment. There are jobs, but most of them go in house, or trough private connections - which I understand, but it does not make it easier.
A privilege to be a pilot! Why? I have had professions which have been similar prestigious, which even less people in the world would know how to do, I did not do it because I wanted to be special and different, but because it was something that I wanted to do for myself, not something I did to show that I was special. And in the US a pilot licence is much less special then in Europe, as I know plenty who at one stage in their life had a PPL in the US.
What is wrong with the industry? Lack of vision is one of them, pilots and FTO's looking to screw pilots for their money with promises of help to get jobs - make sure you read the print twice before you sign anything or do anything, because be sure, you will be the victim!
The industry rules are that the low cost now really want to get rid of the FO as a job, they want it to be paying trainee pilots, that is the long term prospect until one of them makes a hole in the ground!
I think the biggest problem is the attitude the industry has got to pilots, because there are to many pilots, newbies, who don't mind working for a bag of peanuts as long as they get to fly fly fly!
They know this, and they make us all pay for this!
What's there to be negative against in the industry?
Getting paid 1000 Euro a month for 18 months, after paying £30.000 for your own TR!
People giving promises that they never keep!
Having only been qualified for few months, I have to admit much of the negativity is in fact based on facts. It seems that for some it seems to be a fools game, all THEY WANT is YOUR/OUR money in any way they can get it.
I believe as a PPL you will have very little basis to voice your opinion, as you will not have had any experience in what job search in this sector entitles. I have done business for 20 years, and always been honest, it does not seem that these are ethics aviation work with.
I am not bitter, I am just stating how it really is, unless you have very good contacts (and even then it is not easy), there is very little chance get a sniff of a job at the moment. There are jobs, but most of them go in house, or trough private connections - which I understand, but it does not make it easier.
A privilege to be a pilot! Why? I have had professions which have been similar prestigious, which even less people in the world would know how to do, I did not do it because I wanted to be special and different, but because it was something that I wanted to do for myself, not something I did to show that I was special. And in the US a pilot licence is much less special then in Europe, as I know plenty who at one stage in their life had a PPL in the US.
What is wrong with the industry? Lack of vision is one of them, pilots and FTO's looking to screw pilots for their money with promises of help to get jobs - make sure you read the print twice before you sign anything or do anything, because be sure, you will be the victim!
The industry rules are that the low cost now really want to get rid of the FO as a job, they want it to be paying trainee pilots, that is the long term prospect until one of them makes a hole in the ground!
I think the biggest problem is the attitude the industry has got to pilots, because there are to many pilots, newbies, who don't mind working for a bag of peanuts as long as they get to fly fly fly!
They know this, and they make us all pay for this!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ct8282,
I come from a poor family and in my first proper job I earned 12.5k. Seven years later, I work somewhere completely different and earn around 40k. Like you I could say I worked hard to get where I am. It doesn't really mean anything though. The people that get support from their parents so they can go to OAA may have an easier start to flying than the rest of us, but it doesn't mean that they would be any less driven than the rest of us to go out and earn the money to pay their own way if they didn't have that advantage.
I can't help but read your post and think that because you've gone out and put the effort in that you now seem to expect some recognition and praise for your efforts. To be honest nobody cares how you pay for your training.
I agree you can be positive and get where you want to get to in life, but the negativity here on Pprune isn't exactly baseless as BoeingDreamer has already indicated.
Professional aviation is probably unlike most other industries in that there isn't a typical ladder to climb. Personally I would love to have a go at flying turboprops for a living. If I could live on the salary being offered I'd certainly consider any flying job. It would seem however that if you're goal is to get into the RHS of a jet, than flying TPs is not the way to go. Airlines do employ cadets with minimum hours and the cash for a type rating, but for direct entry pilots you will likely need to have jet time rather than just experience flying TPs. This much is evident from reading threads here on Pprune.
I come from a poor family and in my first proper job I earned 12.5k. Seven years later, I work somewhere completely different and earn around 40k. Like you I could say I worked hard to get where I am. It doesn't really mean anything though. The people that get support from their parents so they can go to OAA may have an easier start to flying than the rest of us, but it doesn't mean that they would be any less driven than the rest of us to go out and earn the money to pay their own way if they didn't have that advantage.
I can't help but read your post and think that because you've gone out and put the effort in that you now seem to expect some recognition and praise for your efforts. To be honest nobody cares how you pay for your training.
I agree you can be positive and get where you want to get to in life, but the negativity here on Pprune isn't exactly baseless as BoeingDreamer has already indicated.
Professional aviation is probably unlike most other industries in that there isn't a typical ladder to climb. Personally I would love to have a go at flying turboprops for a living. If I could live on the salary being offered I'd certainly consider any flying job. It would seem however that if you're goal is to get into the RHS of a jet, than flying TPs is not the way to go. Airlines do employ cadets with minimum hours and the cash for a type rating, but for direct entry pilots you will likely need to have jet time rather than just experience flying TPs. This much is evident from reading threads here on Pprune.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chester
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doesn't matter what industry you work in there will always be negativity. If there is a forum for wannabe train drivers they too would be sharing the same views posted on PPRuNE. Point being, businesses are struggling and it's even harder for the younger generation to break into any skilled career. It's how the individual deals with the negativity and what they do about it. Personally i believe surrounding yourself by too much negativity i.e PPRuNE can force you into being a pessimist. Having said that, you've got to love the banter on here sometimes!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ct8282, I read your post.
It looks like you are complaining because some wannabes are complaining.
It's funny because the moaning doesn't stop with you, it just goes to a higher degree...
It looks like the english expression: a dog chasing its tail,
I still prefer the french expression: the snake that bites its tail (le serpent qui se mord la queue) to describe this thread.
It looks like you are complaining because some wannabes are complaining.
It's funny because the moaning doesn't stop with you, it just goes to a higher degree...
It looks like the english expression: a dog chasing its tail,
I still prefer the french expression: the snake that bites its tail (le serpent qui se mord la queue) to describe this thread.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think you can go so far as to say doctors are guaranteed a job, but there is a reason that the UK has special categories in the Tiered points based Visa system for doctors and nurses. Not enough Britons are going into medicine and nursing, so they have to make immigration easier to attract foreigners to fill the need. Perhaps the explanation for the shortage is that the terms of endearment in the UK medical system are ****e. Of the many UK medical professionals I have encountered, I'd say the vast majority are in it because it is a calling, not because it is financially lucrative. Pilot wannabes would be well advised to treat aviation the same way or prepare for early burnout and disillusionment.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,144
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
Jambone is correct- it is out of order to exploit the hopes and wishes of people keen to get into aviation (although publishers do it to authors as well), especially when the fees concerned are tax deductible for the company anyway. Some airlines are not even paying pilots until not only have they paid for their type rating, but their OPC and line training as well.
Why is this happening? Because there is always somebody willing to accept it. My stepdaghter recently went through £50,000 worth of training for the insurance industry with no question of paying it back if she leaves or gets pregnant - they simply assume that her replacement will have had similar training elsewhere in the industry.
As a Chief Pilot I have never (and will never) take on pilots who offer to work for free or contribute to their training, as it represents a potential self-esteem problem. I want people with the confidence to state what they are worth and behave accordingly. That's where Captaincy starts from.
Phil
Without prejudice. All models over 18 years of age. No animals were harmed during the production of this product. Any resemblance to actual people, living or dead, or events, past, present or future, is purely coincidental. Some names have been changed to protect the innocent. Batteries not included. If condition persists, consult your physician. Slippery when wet. Parental guidance advised. Always read the label. If rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops, discontinue use. Please remain seated until the web page has come to a complete stop. If ingested, do not induce vomiting. May contain nuts. May be too intense for some viewers. In case of accidental ingestion, seek professional assistance or contact a poison control centre immediately. Products are not authorized for use as critical components in life support devices or systems. objects in rear-view mirror may be behind you. Driver does not carry cash. Other restrictions may apply.
Why is this happening? Because there is always somebody willing to accept it. My stepdaghter recently went through £50,000 worth of training for the insurance industry with no question of paying it back if she leaves or gets pregnant - they simply assume that her replacement will have had similar training elsewhere in the industry.
As a Chief Pilot I have never (and will never) take on pilots who offer to work for free or contribute to their training, as it represents a potential self-esteem problem. I want people with the confidence to state what they are worth and behave accordingly. That's where Captaincy starts from.
Phil
Without prejudice. All models over 18 years of age. No animals were harmed during the production of this product. Any resemblance to actual people, living or dead, or events, past, present or future, is purely coincidental. Some names have been changed to protect the innocent. Batteries not included. If condition persists, consult your physician. Slippery when wet. Parental guidance advised. Always read the label. If rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops, discontinue use. Please remain seated until the web page has come to a complete stop. If ingested, do not induce vomiting. May contain nuts. May be too intense for some viewers. In case of accidental ingestion, seek professional assistance or contact a poison control centre immediately. Products are not authorized for use as critical components in life support devices or systems. objects in rear-view mirror may be behind you. Driver does not carry cash. Other restrictions may apply.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: South
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The amount of irony in this thread amuses me.
People moaning about people moaning about people moaning about people moaning ad infinitum.
Shame, some of us can all be such a happy relaxed bunch over a pint at the bar.
Except Jawbone of course, who may only drink with a meal and an accompanying adult
Happy Friday, 4015
PS: Paco and Jawbone - Good posts.
People moaning about people moaning about people moaning about people moaning ad infinitum.
Shame, some of us can all be such a happy relaxed bunch over a pint at the bar.
Except Jawbone of course, who may only drink with a meal and an accompanying adult
Happy Friday, 4015
PS: Paco and Jawbone - Good posts.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 1,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jambone
however a university degree is the fundamental requirement for various jobs in the UK and that does not seem to equate to the £100,000 investment I mentioned earlier,
Anyway most of the negativity on pprune IS bourne out of experience not idle chit chat or fantasy, take a look at the "Ryanair Exodus Plan" thread on terms and conditions page and you will see that those who threw money at Ryanair are getting their come uppance now. (That is if you believe what the posters are saying because it's too negative).
