The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread
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The modular route might be cheaper, and a good option for those that can afford the time. But not necessarily for those that are on the cusp of potentially being too old for employment. i.e. Late 30's and early 40's.
Yes we all know it happens in the aviation industry, where age discrimination can be easily dressed up as some other reason not to employ someone, hours, experience, etc. I admit I have a vested interest here in that I am one of those older pilots trying to get a foot in the door, seeing all those young guns around me lining up interviews while I am left on the employment shelf. It's clear the only difference is age in many cases, and it is very frustrating. I've heard learning ability often quoted as a reason but there are many mature students completing degrees and other qualifications all the time. Each individuals ability to learn is differerent, and airlines should recognize this. Alas, while there is a glut of young low houred pilots out there, things won't change.
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Sorry maybe I didn't word that too well.
You are not too old to start learning to fly in your 30's and 40's, or too old for employment. Unless, you are being viewed through the eyes of the majority of Airlines.
I can't see what they have to lose by employing older Pilots?
Do you really think the passengers care about the crews age?
Imagine :
"OMG, Why was that 45 year old F/O, allowed to pefrom the emergency landing that brought us all back safely? I wanted someone much younger than that
"
You are not too old to start learning to fly in your 30's and 40's, or too old for employment. Unless, you are being viewed through the eyes of the majority of Airlines.
I can't see what they have to lose by employing older Pilots?
Do you really think the passengers care about the crews age?
Imagine :
"OMG, Why was that 45 year old F/O, allowed to pefrom the emergency landing that brought us all back safely? I wanted someone much younger than that
"
PVCAKES3728,
Tried to PM but couldn't.
Since you're at an important decision point, if you haven't done it by now, you might try a more US-centric av website. Your issue has been discussed by others too. Try this one...generally civilized (I have no association with them):
Changing Careers | Jetcareers
Best of luck to you.
Tried to PM but couldn't.
Since you're at an important decision point, if you haven't done it by now, you might try a more US-centric av website. Your issue has been discussed by others too. Try this one...generally civilized (I have no association with them):
Changing Careers | Jetcareers
Best of luck to you.
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"OMG, Why was that 45 year old F/O, allowed to pefrom the emergency landing that brought us all back safely? I wanted someone much younger than that "
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I can't see what they have to lose by employing older Pilots?
Younger employees are easier to indoctrinate, absorb information faster, are more mobile and are less likely to leave as seniority grows; many BA pilots will have spent their entire working lives there by the time they retire.
If you have the relevant licences and medical I don't see why anyone should be deemed too old for employment as a pilot.
Do you really think the passengers care about the crews age?
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bafanguy
It is, although of course few companies offer the prospect of an entire career with one employer. I am in favour of the suggestion that age should be no barrier and I know from experience that the US is somewhat different to other parts of the world in this regard, however in Europe, for some of the reasons stated, recruitment for that first job tends to favour the young.
It is, although of course few companies offer the prospect of an entire career with one employer. I am in favour of the suggestion that age should be no barrier and I know from experience that the US is somewhat different to other parts of the world in this regard, however in Europe, for some of the reasons stated, recruitment for that first job tends to favour the young.
Reverserbucket,
There's little "logic" to airline hiring mentality. Here in the States, I'd bet money seats WILL be filled and age will not be a barrier.
In fact, the company I worked for has been hiring people in their mid-ish 40s for some time now (even back when 60 was mandatory retirement age). There was a time here when 28 was too old. Back around the early 90s I worked with a new FO retired from the USAF. He was told he was too old at 31 but...magically, at 41 he no longer was !!
Seats WILL be filled !!!
There's little "logic" to airline hiring mentality. Here in the States, I'd bet money seats WILL be filled and age will not be a barrier.
In fact, the company I worked for has been hiring people in their mid-ish 40s for some time now (even back when 60 was mandatory retirement age). There was a time here when 28 was too old. Back around the early 90s I worked with a new FO retired from the USAF. He was told he was too old at 31 but...magically, at 41 he no longer was !!
Seats WILL be filled !!!
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bafanguy
I agree - I know guys in their late 40's and early 50's with no jet or T/P experience being hired by the regionals - they are marketable right now because they have 1500hrs either as CFI's or by other means. Europe is quite different though with no minimum hours requirement and an endless supply of young (non-sponsored or tagged) flight school graduates who are prepared to self-fund type rating courses (and line experience) at higher than market cost in order to secure a job. This in addition to those fortunate enough to find work where they are only bonded for training costs and where the employer selects those that present the lowest training risk for the reasons described earlier.
The other issue is scale - the US has an enormous aviation industry by comparison to Europe and whereas I have no doubt either that seats will be filled out of necessity, that level of demand will never be reached in Europe.
I agree - I know guys in their late 40's and early 50's with no jet or T/P experience being hired by the regionals - they are marketable right now because they have 1500hrs either as CFI's or by other means. Europe is quite different though with no minimum hours requirement and an endless supply of young (non-sponsored or tagged) flight school graduates who are prepared to self-fund type rating courses (and line experience) at higher than market cost in order to secure a job. This in addition to those fortunate enough to find work where they are only bonded for training costs and where the employer selects those that present the lowest training risk for the reasons described earlier.
The other issue is scale - the US has an enormous aviation industry by comparison to Europe and whereas I have no doubt either that seats will be filled out of necessity, that level of demand will never be reached in Europe.
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I just don't get it.
All these people with good jobs that have dreamed of flying since they were 6 months old etc. etc.
Are you all qualified PPL's with an IR or at least IMC?
If not why not? If you dreamed of flying all your life then why are you only interested in throwing £100k+ at some airline scheme?
I wanted to fly since I was quite young, I was at the flying club when I was about 12 pestering them for info on learning to fly. I spent every spare bit of cash getting my PPL and then extra licences and flying all over.
How can you have always dreamed of flying, have a good job yet never had a PPL?
For those of you who do or even those who are thinking of training, get a PPL. Do your ATPL whilst enjoying flying as many different types as possible and get your IR. All these will be as much use flying for fun as they will commercially so not money wasted get a share in something and do that flying you always dreamed of. You may only have 1 or 2 passengers instead of loads of fare paying ones but who cares?.
If you still want to fly for a living after that then add a CPL (cheap if you already hold an IR) and an MCC then your ready to start sending out CV's. I tell you now you will make more contacts during your PPL flying than you ever will at some pilot training seminar. If you don't get a job who cares? All you have wasted is the CPL and MCC fee which is under £10k. You still have your current job and the ability to fly all over the world IFR in a shared aircraft which is what you have wanted to do all your life.
Of course, if its some kind of uniform fetish you have rather than a desire to actually fly you can always but some bars on ebay.
All these people with good jobs that have dreamed of flying since they were 6 months old etc. etc.
Are you all qualified PPL's with an IR or at least IMC?
If not why not? If you dreamed of flying all your life then why are you only interested in throwing £100k+ at some airline scheme?
I wanted to fly since I was quite young, I was at the flying club when I was about 12 pestering them for info on learning to fly. I spent every spare bit of cash getting my PPL and then extra licences and flying all over.
How can you have always dreamed of flying, have a good job yet never had a PPL?
For those of you who do or even those who are thinking of training, get a PPL. Do your ATPL whilst enjoying flying as many different types as possible and get your IR. All these will be as much use flying for fun as they will commercially so not money wasted get a share in something and do that flying you always dreamed of. You may only have 1 or 2 passengers instead of loads of fare paying ones but who cares?.
If you still want to fly for a living after that then add a CPL (cheap if you already hold an IR) and an MCC then your ready to start sending out CV's. I tell you now you will make more contacts during your PPL flying than you ever will at some pilot training seminar. If you don't get a job who cares? All you have wasted is the CPL and MCC fee which is under £10k. You still have your current job and the ability to fly all over the world IFR in a shared aircraft which is what you have wanted to do all your life.
Of course, if its some kind of uniform fetish you have rather than a desire to actually fly you can always but some bars on ebay.
Last edited by Prophead; 4th May 2016 at 15:07.
Prophead - well put.
The sad reality is that, particularly with the MPL, we are getting right hand seats increasingly occupied by automatons with little real flying experience in the real world. Sure, they can operate a medium sized jet and fly it within acceptable limits and to company SOPs. And good luck to them - many will have long, successful careers.
But have they ever been out on their own in the middle of nowhere and had a rough running engine? Ever been lost, I mean temporarily unsure of position, with the weather closing in? Scud running over the sea looking for a break in the clouds? Felt a bit twitchy when their lookout wasn't quite what it should be?
None of the above matters in the cosseted world of airline flying.....well, until that one time when the holes in the cheese line up. If only the travelling public had half a clue.
The sad reality is that, particularly with the MPL, we are getting right hand seats increasingly occupied by automatons with little real flying experience in the real world. Sure, they can operate a medium sized jet and fly it within acceptable limits and to company SOPs. And good luck to them - many will have long, successful careers.
But have they ever been out on their own in the middle of nowhere and had a rough running engine? Ever been lost, I mean temporarily unsure of position, with the weather closing in? Scud running over the sea looking for a break in the clouds? Felt a bit twitchy when their lookout wasn't quite what it should be?
None of the above matters in the cosseted world of airline flying.....well, until that one time when the holes in the cheese line up. If only the travelling public had half a clue.
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Heading for that big jet in the sky
So I have started on the road to becoming an Airline Pilot. Currently training with the National Flight Centre in Weston Airport, Lucan. Dublin. Ireland
I have a few questions!!
1) I am 31 this June 20th…I am giving myself 3 years to get to the magical ATPL Frozen……Am I mad starting at my age?
2) I am taking the modular route as I am working to fund my training…. some Airline prefer pilots who have gone through the integrated course, however I would class modular pilots as having a slight advantage as the learning is slower so in theory you learn more as it has time to sink in…correct?? If a modular pilot applies to an airline that states integrated only, will the application simply be ignored?
3) In regards to hour building, will it have to be done with a school / club? I have access to a friend’s Cessna 150 and I plan to travel around Europe once my PPL is completed. However, if flying a friend’s aircraft how can my hours be verified or can they?
4) I will be looking at applying to Aer Lingus or Ryanair… (Ryanair preferred as I prefer the Boeing yoke to the Airbus side stick) the type rating in Ireland is approx. €30,000 Euros which the airline gladly accepts then you live on bread and water for 6 months until you get the 3rd stripe and they start paying you! My question is I have been told Ryanair have started bonding scheme where the new pilot will sign up for X amount of years and they take the 30k from you wages?
Thanks for your time, any other hints / tips would be greatly appreciated
I have a few questions!!
1) I am 31 this June 20th…I am giving myself 3 years to get to the magical ATPL Frozen……Am I mad starting at my age?
2) I am taking the modular route as I am working to fund my training…. some Airline prefer pilots who have gone through the integrated course, however I would class modular pilots as having a slight advantage as the learning is slower so in theory you learn more as it has time to sink in…correct?? If a modular pilot applies to an airline that states integrated only, will the application simply be ignored?
3) In regards to hour building, will it have to be done with a school / club? I have access to a friend’s Cessna 150 and I plan to travel around Europe once my PPL is completed. However, if flying a friend’s aircraft how can my hours be verified or can they?
4) I will be looking at applying to Aer Lingus or Ryanair… (Ryanair preferred as I prefer the Boeing yoke to the Airbus side stick) the type rating in Ireland is approx. €30,000 Euros which the airline gladly accepts then you live on bread and water for 6 months until you get the 3rd stripe and they start paying you! My question is I have been told Ryanair have started bonding scheme where the new pilot will sign up for X amount of years and they take the 30k from you wages?
Thanks for your time, any other hints / tips would be greatly appreciated
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How old is too old after qualifying with CPL/IR/MCC(frozen ATPL) is too old to start?
In particular to the UK how old too old to have a realistic chance of making it as an airline pilot?.With anti-age discrimination laws now in place is there no such thing as "too old" or do the airlines find ways around it?
Cheers.
Cheers.
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My personal 2 cts.
1. No you're not too old. Some airlines clearly prefer younger candidates, others don't care. In the corporate flying world they actually prefer older chaps.
2. Nobody cares about the theory. You will not be better or worse educated as a modular. The theory is too easy to be considered impressive so everybody gets 90+% average these days (especially with the QB)
2. Yes, your application will be binned instantly when you apply to an integrated only position. And quite a few airlines have CTC/FTE/ etc as preferred integrated suppliers. There are, it seems to me, less chances as a modular student to get into the big jets, but it is not impossible at all.
3. Nobody cares about your hour building. Just make sure for yourself, that you don't waste the hours flying circles around your hometown but actually learn something. Nobody checks your logbook for signatures. The CAA can check it if they want to by auditing your friend's airplane log if they desire.
4. Don't know. This bonding story was floating around when I started my training 5 years ago. Might be happening, might not? That said, aer lingus is by FAR the better employer (really, world of difference) so who gives a crap that they fly airbus? You're on auto pilot anyway so you might as well be comfortable.
As a modular student myself, I would like to add the following. I am currently only flying SEP airplanes around as a part time job in the weekend, trying to scrounge up a few hours here and there to hopefully move on eventually. I have friends that got a bonded TR on a big jet, others that paid their own, and others that paid for TR and line and are now actually employed somewhere else. A few are still instructing, and a single one never got a job and moved on with his life after a lot of heartache. What I want to say is that nobody knows what will happen in your career, and nobody in aviation is going to give a crap and go out of their way to hire you. In the end, it all depends on your perseverance and unfortunately quite a bit of luck/timing.
1. No you're not too old. Some airlines clearly prefer younger candidates, others don't care. In the corporate flying world they actually prefer older chaps.
2. Nobody cares about the theory. You will not be better or worse educated as a modular. The theory is too easy to be considered impressive so everybody gets 90+% average these days (especially with the QB)
2. Yes, your application will be binned instantly when you apply to an integrated only position. And quite a few airlines have CTC/FTE/ etc as preferred integrated suppliers. There are, it seems to me, less chances as a modular student to get into the big jets, but it is not impossible at all.
3. Nobody cares about your hour building. Just make sure for yourself, that you don't waste the hours flying circles around your hometown but actually learn something. Nobody checks your logbook for signatures. The CAA can check it if they want to by auditing your friend's airplane log if they desire.
4. Don't know. This bonding story was floating around when I started my training 5 years ago. Might be happening, might not? That said, aer lingus is by FAR the better employer (really, world of difference) so who gives a crap that they fly airbus? You're on auto pilot anyway so you might as well be comfortable.
As a modular student myself, I would like to add the following. I am currently only flying SEP airplanes around as a part time job in the weekend, trying to scrounge up a few hours here and there to hopefully move on eventually. I have friends that got a bonded TR on a big jet, others that paid their own, and others that paid for TR and line and are now actually employed somewhere else. A few are still instructing, and a single one never got a job and moved on with his life after a lot of heartache. What I want to say is that nobody knows what will happen in your career, and nobody in aviation is going to give a crap and go out of their way to hire you. In the end, it all depends on your perseverance and unfortunately quite a bit of luck/timing.