truckflyer

It's not so much of being told how to do your job, rather the conditions you are made to work under by management, pay conditions, hours, rostering, commuting etc. Generally TC's that are not fit for purpose.

Like myself, I am currently very happy with the company I work for, but I can not survive alone on the money I am being paid for this job as an FO. I know if I stick it out, I will get where I want to be eventually, so we will see, if I am willing to sacrifice living and lifestyle, for the sake of a job that clearly underpays me.
I am lucky, because I still have options, and that is the best tips to all, keep options.

class2ldn

Actually I know some who have but I guess different things suit different people.
I'd only do it modular as I could work it around my current job.
My issue is a) My age and b) My high school grades. No gcses but equivalents to 4 but that's it. Did email ctc to get an idea on what I'd actually need for them or whether they would count towards it but they couldn't be bothered to reply.
It's time like this I wish I'd actually taken the time to put the work in at school and obviously time isn't really on my side. Can't do a full time course to get the gcses obviously so may look at some evening courses while I sort out my ppl.
It's funny because all the things I hated at school like science and maths I quite enjoy now just don't have the qualifications to back it up.
As for the money I normally earn around 2600 after tax with no overtime but we only do a 35 hour week. No sundays either.
If we work about 5 days overtime then we can get about 3500-4k. We get a £50 bonus for each rest day we work.
It is a good secure job but the railways are not what they used to be i guess in the same way the airlines have changed.

truckflyer

Yes you will be lucky to earning much more then £2500 a month for the first 10 years. No overtime pay, no extra pay to work in nights or holidays, no summer holidays, no holidays at all except when you are in low peak season.

Your high school grades are not very important, the maths is not very complicated, it's not really difficult the theory part, just time consuming.

Overtime does not exist, take you pay, and you will work as much as they need you for this month. 150 - 250 hours a month.

class2ldn

For me it's not really about the money.
Me and my partner live just outside of gatwick in crawley. We both do shift work and she does stopover work in her job anyway.
You say the math isn't important or the grades but I don't know many airlines willing to take people on without at least 5 a-c grades. Ctc won't. Not much point me doing all the stuff and then every airline turning around saying sorry you don't meet the minimum requirements.
For me I'd be happy on about 45k. Yes Id like to earn more but I'm not really a big spender.
We've just bought a house and the mortgage is about 1100 a month.
That's our biggest outlay and in 2 years that will drop when we remortgage.
I'd be quite happy at one of the smaller airlines but I couldn't afford to give up this job so my only option is modular.

Happy Wanderer

Reality check needed there class2ldn - "For me I'd be happy on about 45k" - which 'smaller airline' do you think pays anywhere near that?? Assuming you got an airline job, you'd typically be starting on around £23k as an FO - maybe more, but possibly even less. You could do what I did and instruct, but unless you're lucky enough to get a job at a commercial ATO, it'll be a case of earning enough to put meat on the table once a week, seriously. I'm not trying to put you off, but you may need to realign your expectations just a little. Anyone entering the profession to earn good money is quite frankly barking up the wrong tree.

HW

truckflyer

class2ldn - I never seen any airline ask me for my math skills, yes you sometimes get tested for selection for BA etc., but this is rather the exception then the rule.

Of course you need to have a basic grasp of BASIC maths, but you certainly do not need to be a maths or science genius to pass ATPL's or become a pilot.

Another thing, nothing is certain that you get a job in your region of choice, your own country even, suddenly you need to start consider commuting, yes there are MANY jobs out there, for guys with some experience, but coming new into the business, well beggars cant be choosers!

I know guys getting their first job, 1500 Euros a month (£1150), increasing to 2500 Euros a month after around 2 years. Btw of this you have to pay UK tax if you still living / resident of the UK.

CTC is of course an option, not cheap, and you can never be sure what will happen by the time you finish your training, with £150.000 training debts, and no job offers except as I mentioned above. On top of the training with CTC, you will have to pay for your TR, as this is not normally included.

If you have this cash £150.000 stashed away somewhere, then I would say no problem, go for it, yet after this getting a job is still a lottery. I would say odds are around 30% of getting a job within 5 years after concluding training.

Modular will be slightly cheaper, I am not sure of exact figures, but I would guess if you start from Zero hours, incl. TR, you would probably need around £90.000 going Modular.

I would recommend doing modular over around 3 -4 years, enjoy flying, and see what happens. Instructing is not a bad option to keep you on top of things, it will not get you a job that easy anymore, but you will probably have loads of fun.

class2ldn

Thanks for that.
In regards to money if I could live on 23k Id be happy to take that.
I'm not from a wealthy background so to me 45k is more then I expected to be earning. All my previous jobs were around 25k anyway. That's why I realise until my mortgage is paid off a bit I couldnt commit to it full time anyway but I'm worried that I may be nearer 40 when Im finally in a position to approach airlines and I'm not sure how they look at people coming in at that age.

Airlinepilot1687

Hi I noticed some people on this thread said they already had a mortgage prior to beginning an integrated course. Do you mind me asking how you went about securing funding on an integrated course when you already hold a mortgage? I am 28 and a PPL holder but considering this route and just looking at my options?

Thanks in advance

Happy Wanderer

I was a (very) late starter and fortunately paid off my mortgage around the time I started out, but having worked for ATOs you do see a range of funding options. The big disadvantage of going down the integrated route is you will of course have to fund the c£100k training costs up front, something you will never do as a modular 'pay-as-you-fly' student. Type-rating costs are generally in addition to what you'll have paid to get a frozen ATPL. As for Integrated funding options, the most popular source is the 'bank of Mum & Dad' (who themselves often end up taking out a 2nd mortgage where the student isn't a homeowner), 2nd mortgages where the student IS a homeowner, inheritances and the like. As an integrated course is full-time, you're unable to work part-time to fund your flight training. The one or two finance house schemes that are available generally don't cover the full cost of an integrated programme. All these are valid reasons why the modular route is the most popular option if funding your training is likely to be a problem.
Hope this helps.

HW

truckflyer

I know many guys who have done modular, who have got jobs now, equally many who don't have jobs now.

So its a bit of a lottery. If funds are not unlimited, I would do it modular, at a "small but busy" flight school, if in early 30's, I would do the FIC and try to do instructing with the flight school.
This way you build experience, enjoy flying without enormous cost, and gain great experience.

I got job before my CPL instructor, however he got my job a few years later, so it worked out in the end, but very random. Depending where you live in the country, there are various options for this route.

But lets not be naive and sugar coat the reality, getting a job either 30 or 40 with little experience is not easy, the odds are against you regardless, so if you happy with that prospect its just to go for it.

scavenger69

Hi everyone.

I was thinking on giving it another shot.
Im 30. I hold a South American ICAO PPL with 500hr SE, class 1 medical, UE passport and whatnot. Im back in Europe now, looking for a good school to help me with the conversion of the PPL and the CPL+IR+ME training and ATPL theory. What would you recommend? I dont have a lot of cash, just enough to fly a few hours, buy a few books and sit for the exams. While this is a very hard industry to get into, I want to give it another shot. What do you think?

RedBullGaveMeWings

I am going to quote what I told you in the other thread: http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post9308050

Train2Plane

Another Train Driver here at the age of 28. Dream has been to always fly commercially for the airlines ever since I could understand my own imagination. I have tried to shake the 'bug' but to no avail and to me, it is a question of regret; what would you regret more....
Having gone for the dream and it not working out or:
Never having gone for the dream and one day you look back and wondered why you never did when you could.
I have an expired PPL together with night, 33 hours PIC and Module 1 of BGS purchased. All of this is just sat on hold waiting to be completed and compete it I will.
I have had many a word with myself in many mirrors and for me, it is now or never. I have no commitments and my job allows me plenty of time to complete the required elements.
So from here on in, I will give it 100% and I will succeed.

sanay121

Hi guys,

Almost same story here. I am a hotelier at the age of 32 and would like to start my training by the age of 33. Would be able to get info or suggestion on some good& economical school based in Canada.

Approximately how much would it cost.

Regards

Sanay

Greenlights

after 30 y/o it is nearly too late.
Nowadays, airlines hire teenagers (18/19y/o) to accept poor conditions, but they can wear rayban and put a pic on Facebook,
the airlines press them like a lemon juice, until dry and sick (burnout, depression etc), finally they hire the next ones for a new contract with lower TCs.
good luck though

gear up job

This is the most silly response i have read so far this yr @ pprune. Greenlights if you got nothing to contribute about just keep quite!

sanay121 and Train2Plane my in-law finished their training @ 35yrs. 4 yrs later last yr got employed to one of the M.E carriers. Nothing is impossible BUT it will need hard work and the RIGHT attitude. All the best to all!

wheel lock

Hey Train2Plane, it's been a good few years but I was once in your "boat", or at least on your train! I was 30 years old, I had a steady job in the non-flying area of aviation, good pay, good benefits, 6 weeks holidays a year and full medical and dental coverage. I also had a two year old child and another on the way, almost everyone I worked with said I was absolutely crazy to try and become a pilot.
I won't prattle on about the hours, time, money and blood that I invested in training because I'm sure you know what it will entail. I applied to many a company and was rejected at every turn, "you don't have enough hours, get some hours and then come see us", was what I heard over and over! I picked four companies that I wanted to work for, the first one, being my priority, got the brunt of my efforts. I flew to the city where they were based, three times, to see the Chief Pilot. The pit bull at reception would have none of it but I persisted and finally got to see him! After that I emailed him every week for 6 months solid.
Just over one year later, I received a phone call from him, offering me a job. The job was only for three months and then after that I would be made redundant. "Was I still interested", he asked? I immediately said yes! Then proceeded to tell my wife that I was quitting my regular job and was hired as a pilot and in 3 months time I would be let go and I had absolutely no idea how we were going to survive!
Suffice to say that the job went much longer than three months and I was not let go. Many years later I now sit in the left seat of a 777. If I had listened to everyone that said I was nuts and was too scared to take a leap of faith, I would not be where I am today. It was not an easy journey but it was well worth it and I am still as happy today as I was when I got my first job. Aviation has changed a lot over the years but those with a passion to fly will still do it. There will be many who will say you're crazy, it's up to you to decided what you want to do.

Good luck in your endeavors!,

WL

midiman

I was in the same dilemma around 7 years ago. I was going to take the leap to become a Pilot, or get on the property ladder.


Either option was going to cost around £110K.


Buying a house would have given me somewhere to live and potentially see my money go up in value.


On the other hand, obtaining a fATPL for the same amount of money would have only guaranteed a huge amount of debt. Simply because you can’t sell your fATPL if you get into trouble and you can’t afford to be sitting around without a job.


Then there is another dilemma, who is say that you are going to like the job? You can’t chop or change and you would be at the airlines mercy. So you’re are probably going to be put on minimal pay, made to do unsociable hours, and posted to the furthest reaches of the world. You will be a slave to the sky.


For example, I remember being on a flight to Egypt and thinking that our plane has already been delayed by two hours. So what must the crews day be like?
This how is must have panned out.

• They arrived to work on time.
• Prepared the aircraft.
• Sat at the gate waiting for departure.
• Flew outbound for 5hrs.
• Then they told us that they were preparing for a quick turnaround back to Gatwick.

So lets say their day comprised of a 12hr shift in a cramped A320.

I love aircraft and that burning desire to fly will never leave. But you have to stop and say to yourself, is it really worth it?


Since I made the decision to purchase my property it has nearly doubled in value, and I’ve also improved my career prospects. I’m now an IT Consultant, and 6 months away from becoming a qualified Plumber.


It hurts, but at the age of 40 I’ve now got a property that’s nearly paid for, a decent job, a life, and a second career option that comes with unlimited earning potential. All for the same price as a fATPL.


I heard that Airlines used to approach FTOs to pickup PPL Instructors, or even Crop Dusters. That's how my friend managed to get his first job with a low cost carrier, and now he's a 777 Cpt for Qatar.


Paying to fly and the thought of eroding T&Cs make me think that you might be safer on the ground.


NB: To the Train Drivers on here.
I wouldn't even contemplate leaving my job if I was taking home £2700 per month in my standard hours, or have the chance of clearing £3500+ with overtime.


It's a bit like the Tube Drivers, they love to complain about their £55K plus salary.
Try looking at what an A320 Captain gets paid when you get home at your regular time.

PVCAKES3728

Hi everyone.

I will be 50 years old in a few weeks, and I want to go for my Aerospace (Commercial Pilot) degree at Middle Tennessee State University. I want to be a commercial pilot. If I'm too old for commercial pilot, I will be happy to be a corporate pilot.

I was mislead YEARS ago. I was told by someone that I trust with my LIFE...my father...when I was about 12...that you must go into the military to be a pilot. I said, "Ok cool! I can do that!" He said, "You don't want to do that." I asked, "Why?" He said, "Because you'll go in a woman, but you'll come out a man." I was done! As a kid, that's all I needed to hear, and I didn't pursue it...until recently.

In his defense, he's "old school". Most of that generation of men did not and do not believe in women in the military. I forgive him. I just wish I had gone into the Navy anyway. I totally trusted what he said, and did not do my own research...until now. I accept total responsibility for this. My fault.

Now that you have read this novel, is it too late for me? I really do want it...more than anything. If I had my way, I want to fly for either UPS or FedEx for the rest of my career.

midiman

I wouldn't say that you are too old to start learning to fly.


But, you might be too old in standing a chance of gaining employment with an Airline.


I don't know how the Airlines select candidates. Providing that you comply with their criteria. I don't think that the Airlines should be allowed to see your age on application, or even require to see it, unless they suspect that you are trying to deceive them etc...


For example, when I was 38, I had to grovel to a course leader to get onan Evening Course at College. He asked me hold I was, it made me feel humiliated and I didn't see any relevance to it!!! Especially when there were other older Students on the course.


I would like to see him again, so that I can tell him that what he was implying was wrong!! Because all of us Mature Students, have achieved much better grades than the younger ones.


So what does that tell you?


IMO you should based on merit and not viewed as a statistic. I'd rather employ someone that can bring more than flight experience to the cockpit, and most 20 year olds don't have that.


Sadly, I can’t help you with gaining employment. But I would say go for it, if you can afford to pay for it. And even if you don’t get to use it, you have still achieved something.


Best of luck.