The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread
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dboy. I have been there and done it and nothing comes close to flying. Would you prefer to be on standby for your biz jet or slogging away at some mundane task in an office? Groundhog day springs to mind. On average compared to a 'normal job' there is no comparison. I watch my neighbours jumping in their cars at 06:30 every morning 9-5 and I pity them. Rush hour traffic every day? No thanks. Sure we work unsociable hours as well but there is no comparison. I am at home more now than I have ever been, my kids actually know who I am! I have been through the hating flying thing and now I truly know how fortunate I am to have my career. Sometimes you have to happy with your lot mate.
Dr Mike Oxgreen. As for starting at 43 well nothing is impossible. I would caution trying to fall back on some obviously lost skills such as the IMC rating (whats that, 15hrs instruction?). It will not make your IR training any easier. Hows your situational awareness these days? As for finding the ATPL exams a piece of cake just because you are a maths genius that just makes you sound cocky. You are 43 now, we don't learn as quick as the youngsters, something you may want to factor in.. In my opinion should you choose to embark on this very steep climb, I would start with a completely clean sheet, free from preconceptions with a good dose of humility thrown in. You will be sniffed out in no time otherwise. Remember you will be up against the younger and better candidates (I hate saying this, but in my experience true). Nobody cares about 'life experience' either. Good for a chat maybe but not applicable to ability in the flight deck. A lot of older FO's carry can carry a chip on their shoulder, especially the ones who have had successful careers in a previous life and are now disillusioned with flying, would that be you? Why do you want the career in aviation? Is it because you love to fly? Are you passionate about aviation? If so why do you no longer fly? Some questions you may want to ask yourself.
Finally regarding basing, you really can not enter in to this industry thinking that you will never have to move. Especially at the start of your career. You should be willing to go anywhere to bag that first job, so get the idea out of your head now.
Dr Mike Oxgreen. As for starting at 43 well nothing is impossible. I would caution trying to fall back on some obviously lost skills such as the IMC rating (whats that, 15hrs instruction?). It will not make your IR training any easier. Hows your situational awareness these days? As for finding the ATPL exams a piece of cake just because you are a maths genius that just makes you sound cocky. You are 43 now, we don't learn as quick as the youngsters, something you may want to factor in.. In my opinion should you choose to embark on this very steep climb, I would start with a completely clean sheet, free from preconceptions with a good dose of humility thrown in. You will be sniffed out in no time otherwise. Remember you will be up against the younger and better candidates (I hate saying this, but in my experience true). Nobody cares about 'life experience' either. Good for a chat maybe but not applicable to ability in the flight deck. A lot of older FO's carry can carry a chip on their shoulder, especially the ones who have had successful careers in a previous life and are now disillusioned with flying, would that be you? Why do you want the career in aviation? Is it because you love to fly? Are you passionate about aviation? If so why do you no longer fly? Some questions you may want to ask yourself.
Finally regarding basing, you really can not enter in to this industry thinking that you will never have to move. Especially at the start of your career. You should be willing to go anywhere to bag that first job, so get the idea out of your head now.
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Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed reply, truckflyer - I appreciate it.
Right now I'm very confused, because I'm getting such conflicting views (and yes, I know to ignore what the schools would tell me - haven't even spoken to any of them yet).
On this thread the overwhelming view is "don't do it, you'll never get a job, even youngsters all struggle for years and years". But that isn't what I see when I look at my friends who have made the transition.
Could it be that this thread is attracting the people who have indeed struggled and who are altruistically motivated to discourage others from struggling as they have, whereas those who have found work fairly easily (as my friends have) are just getting on with their lives? I don't think any of the friends I mentioned post on pprune, so you're not hearing their success stories.
I really don't know what to think. I can't reconcile the huge discrepancy between the people here and the people I know personally. I don't want to ignore either group. And it isn't just that my friends are telling me what I want to hear; the summaries above are based on the objective facts of what happened to them.
I is confuse!
Right now I'm very confused, because I'm getting such conflicting views (and yes, I know to ignore what the schools would tell me - haven't even spoken to any of them yet).
On this thread the overwhelming view is "don't do it, you'll never get a job, even youngsters all struggle for years and years". But that isn't what I see when I look at my friends who have made the transition.
- Friend 1 gave up a software job about 10 years ago (2 years after 9/11) at the age of about 30. Did his training, got the all-important first-time IR pass, and practically walked straight into a job flying A320s for BA based close to home. He is now transitioning to 747.
- Friend 2 also gave up a software job at the same time as friend 1, and at about the same age. Likewise, at the end of his training he walked straight into a job for EasyJet (again, based close to home), and is now a captain.
- Friend 3 left the Navy just a few years ago at the age of about 28 and trained pretty quickly. He went straight into a job flying 737s for Ryanair (yet again, based in the same part of the country). He is now part way through transitioning to BA to fly 747.
- Friend 4 gave up running his own taxi cab business 4 or 5 years ago at a similar age to me. He had to hunt a bit harder, but he wasn't out of work for all that long - he found very interesting work doing calibration flying. And he didn't have to move. I'm seeing this friend for lunch soon, and he has hinted that he could have done better if he were doing it today. Will be interesting to hear more.
Could it be that this thread is attracting the people who have indeed struggled and who are altruistically motivated to discourage others from struggling as they have, whereas those who have found work fairly easily (as my friends have) are just getting on with their lives? I don't think any of the friends I mentioned post on pprune, so you're not hearing their success stories.
I really don't know what to think. I can't reconcile the huge discrepancy between the people here and the people I know personally. I don't want to ignore either group. And it isn't just that my friends are telling me what I want to hear; the summaries above are based on the objective facts of what happened to them.
I is confuse!
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Shaun_ryder, you've misquoted me several times there!
I didn't say that the IR would be easy for me. I acknowledged that it would be tough, but the bit of instrument flying I've done means I know how tough. I won't be an ab initio student with absolutely no idea of instrument flying - I've already been through that "WTF" experience of grappling with it for the first time.
And where did I say that the ATPL theories would be a piece of cake? People who know me and have done it themselves tell me that I won't struggle, but that's a long way from saying it'll be easy. It'll be slightly less difficult for me because I have a scientific and technical background, and because I have experience of studying hard.
I didn't say that the IR would be easy for me. I acknowledged that it would be tough, but the bit of instrument flying I've done means I know how tough. I won't be an ab initio student with absolutely no idea of instrument flying - I've already been through that "WTF" experience of grappling with it for the first time.
And where did I say that the ATPL theories would be a piece of cake? People who know me and have done it themselves tell me that I won't struggle, but that's a long way from saying it'll be easy. It'll be slightly less difficult for me because I have a scientific and technical background, and because I have experience of studying hard.
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You are not too old
You are not too old. Situation in hiring is better than it was a couple of years ago. It still does not guarantee you a job at the end but you have definitely better chances. You have to decide if you can afford risking a lot of £££ on this, however in your situation it will not be as much as if you had to start from scratch. If you start try to finish and get everythign as soon as possible because nobody knows how long the ramp up in hiring will last. ATPL will not be an issue at all with your background, it just takes time to go through on all of them.
However I have to agree with truckflyier in that if you decide to go down this path you cannot limit yourself to a certain geographical area. If you do you drastically reduce your chance to find a job. As a pilot you have to accept that your base can be easily hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away from your home. Especially in the beginning.
However I have to agree with truckflyier in that if you decide to go down this path you cannot limit yourself to a certain geographical area. If you do you drastically reduce your chance to find a job. As a pilot you have to accept that your base can be easily hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away from your home. Especially in the beginning.
Last edited by flightbooking; 23rd Jan 2016 at 14:02. Reason: I meant to say "ATPL will _not_ be an issue"
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Thanks for all the replies so far, guys! Apologies if it seems that I'm not acknowledging them, but as a newbie my posts are in a moderation holding pattern so my responses are inevitably slow.
On the subject of moving home, I would certainly consider renting out my house and living somewhere else if I had to. Ideally in England or Scotland, possibly Ireland. But like I say, I know several people who haven't had to do that, including at least one fairly recent case.
On the subject of moving home, I would certainly consider renting out my house and living somewhere else if I had to. Ideally in England or Scotland, possibly Ireland. But like I say, I know several people who haven't had to do that, including at least one fairly recent case.
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Go do it and see where fate takes you. There are plenty of people out there all with different stories but the hard facts are this game is very competitive. It's hard enough to get a job with a type rating and +10,000hrs, believe it! It seems the way of the world is geared toward youth/young age. Hard fact of life applicable to all industries.
Edit: by the time you finish training are we still likely to be in an upturn or another downward cycle? If it seems ok here and now thats not to say it'll be the same a few years down the line.
Edit: by the time you finish training are we still likely to be in an upturn or another downward cycle? If it seems ok here and now thats not to say it'll be the same a few years down the line.
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"On this thread the overwhelming view is "don't do it, you'll never get a job, even youngsters all struggle for years and years". But that isn't what I see when I look at my friends who have made the transition."
That is a very naive thought by you here, there are Thousands with that little blue book, who can not get a job.
I know guys who finished their training over 6 years ago, still renewing their IR every year, working in Ops., Cabin Crew still searching for their first jobs.
What I do not understand, if you have these 4 examples, why do you bother to come on these forums to ask for advice, when of course you are looking for a specific answer.
It's not impossible, that's true, but you will join thousands of others without a experience looking for a job, and your age experience is not a positive when it comes to recruitment.
That is a very naive thought by you here, there are Thousands with that little blue book, who can not get a job.
I know guys who finished their training over 6 years ago, still renewing their IR every year, working in Ops., Cabin Crew still searching for their first jobs.
What I do not understand, if you have these 4 examples, why do you bother to come on these forums to ask for advice, when of course you are looking for a specific answer.
It's not impossible, that's true, but you will join thousands of others without a experience looking for a job, and your age experience is not a positive when it comes to recruitment.
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shaun ryder - is right here on many points, still an upturn, but there is also very big chance many guys will be looking for jobs in few years with loads of experience, if we are to believe the guys who have fled Monarch and FlyBe.
Personally, do I have regrets, if I am going to be 100 % honest, probably a little. having 2.5 days of rest in 10 days, and having management treat you like ****, makes you wonder why any normal person would go and spend £100.000 to become a pilot, when you can't even survive on a normal FO pay.
Personally, do I have regrets, if I am going to be 100 % honest, probably a little. having 2.5 days of rest in 10 days, and having management treat you like ****, makes you wonder why any normal person would go and spend £100.000 to become a pilot, when you can't even survive on a normal FO pay.
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I'm not looking for a specific answer, I assure you. I'm simply trying to understand the huge discrepancy between what's being said here and what I see amongst people I know. It's very hard to decide which to believe.
If what you're saying is that I'm unlikely to ever get a job, then fine - I will build that into my overall assessment of what to do. But I can't simply ignore the fact that I've seen people succeed - that should also be part of my assessment.
If what you're saying is that I'm unlikely to ever get a job, then fine - I will build that into my overall assessment of what to do. But I can't simply ignore the fact that I've seen people succeed - that should also be part of my assessment.
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Dr Mike Oxgreen. According to your post you are 43 years old. If you started training tomorrow it would be at least 18 months down the line until you achieve the bare minimum requirements in order to apply for a job. By this time you will most likely be the wrong side of forty. I am a captain flying for a major UK based airline. Nearly all of the cadets/new joiners that I fly with are either in their twenties or early thirties. Unfortunately for the old timers, this seems to be the preference across the board where recruiting bare faced recruits with no experience is concerned. Now you come on here seeking opinions about your situation, I have nothing to gain by offering what I consider to be a fair analysis of the situation. To put it simply, you are not going to find it easy to get a suitable job flying airliners due to your circumstances. Now your four friends are unlikely to poo poo your idea, they will of course offer you words of encouragement and support, just like I have done for a number of friends who have failed in their quest to become an airline pilot. I think a previous poster mentioned guys they knew who had searched for six years for employment. I know someone who's been at it for 13 years now and is still clutching at straws. No airline job! No one really cares whether or not you go off and pursue your dream, thats up to you. If however you want to obtain a broad spectrum of advice on the subject then listen to some of the posters on here and not just your friends. Best of luck to you.
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26, you're not too old !
But do it now, will be one of the oldest of your classmate. But if you go integrated in a big school, you have good chances to get a job straight in an airline.
Dr Mike oxygen, of course 43 is way too old. It's not impossible, some guys win the euromillion at 43, which is statistically harder than getting a flying job.
Your chances of being successful are very small, but, depending of your money/family etc, you can go for it...
And get a first time pass at the IR, good training reports, etc on your CV is peanuts compared with your date of birth.
Most of my young classmates have been called by ryanair for interview, all of them got hired. My results at the exams were better than some of them. I never been invited.
But do it now, will be one of the oldest of your classmate. But if you go integrated in a big school, you have good chances to get a job straight in an airline.
Dr Mike oxygen, of course 43 is way too old. It's not impossible, some guys win the euromillion at 43, which is statistically harder than getting a flying job.
Your chances of being successful are very small, but, depending of your money/family etc, you can go for it...
And get a first time pass at the IR, good training reports, etc on your CV is peanuts compared with your date of birth.
Most of my young classmates have been called by ryanair for interview, all of them got hired. My results at the exams were better than some of them. I never been invited.
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Another very valid point, having the bare minimum fATPL, might seem like a big task, and it is of course much work, but it is fairly "easy" compared to many other professions to pass the theory ATPL's, they are not so difficult, just time consuming. The IR similar, when you understand the basics, it's just practice.
But it's big step from having fresh fATPL to getting a job, and you will soon discover that the airlines are looking for much more then just the bare minimum with regards to skills then the fATPL, and I have seen some older guys struggle with this part, as they often need a little more time, and many airlines have the luxury that they don't need to spend more time, as they have plenty of qualified candidates.
But if you do start this, don't think you just need the money for the IR/CPL and theory, you will also need the money for the TR, if you ever get offered a job, you will with 99.9% chance have to pay/fund your own TR, specially at your age.
So you will need probably at least £70.000 available over the next 2 - 3 years, that you can spend to be paid around £1500 - £2500 a month, never having time for your friends, your wife or any other family, because you are living the dream !
But it's big step from having fresh fATPL to getting a job, and you will soon discover that the airlines are looking for much more then just the bare minimum with regards to skills then the fATPL, and I have seen some older guys struggle with this part, as they often need a little more time, and many airlines have the luxury that they don't need to spend more time, as they have plenty of qualified candidates.
But if you do start this, don't think you just need the money for the IR/CPL and theory, you will also need the money for the TR, if you ever get offered a job, you will with 99.9% chance have to pay/fund your own TR, specially at your age.
So you will need probably at least £70.000 available over the next 2 - 3 years, that you can spend to be paid around £1500 - £2500 a month, never having time for your friends, your wife or any other family, because you are living the dream !
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I know this is kind of a delicate aspect, and please don´t read it wrong - but so far, all the female pilots I have met on my way during modular training, got their chance upon completing training. If they completed and where capable, that is.
So if you in any way are a "minority" in aviation, and can live up to the minimum standards, that might trump the age factor and at least get you an interview. Just my impression, alternate views and opinions are welcome.
So if you in any way are a "minority" in aviation, and can live up to the minimum standards, that might trump the age factor and at least get you an interview. Just my impression, alternate views and opinions are welcome.
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Just seen this thread.
I'm 33 and a train driver and I'm looking at making the change. I'd have to go modular though as I couldnt afford to give up my job.
Quite a scary prospect of spending all that money and having no job at the end.
I have about a year to be able to go back as a qualified driver after which time Id have to start again as a trainee.
Definitely something I'd have to think seriously about.
Going to do my ppl and see where I am after that.
I'm 33 and a train driver and I'm looking at making the change. I'd have to go modular though as I couldnt afford to give up my job.
Quite a scary prospect of spending all that money and having no job at the end.
I have about a year to be able to go back as a qualified driver after which time Id have to start again as a trainee.
Definitely something I'd have to think seriously about.
Going to do my ppl and see where I am after that.
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Class2ldn, forgive me, but you'll probably be earning a lot more now in your current job (with potential to earn more given your age) than you will as a pilot, so do think very carefully before making the jump, particularly with no g'teed job at the end of it. There's quite a lot on here about the comparison between pilot and train driver jobs if you can find it - I have limited understanding of what's involved in being a driver, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is you don't have to pay for your training and job is a lot more 'protected' and secure than a pilot's - and you'll probably see a lot more of your family too. I'm sure there are some guys who'd gladly make the switch the other way given half the chance!
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HW
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I'm 28 and have started my ATPL theory, pretty much juggling my current full time career with studies. Even at my age I fear that airlines might look down on me, as by the time I finish, I'll be 30+. It's a very tough decision to make - society dictates I should put that money towards a property or investment. It's very difficult to explain a concept of spending tens of thousands of euros to gain an education with very little chance of work to any financially responsible person.
However I enjoy flying, I enjoy learning. I didn't start my PPL with a view of turning it into career, I just wanted to fly. But as soon as my training was done and winter weather arrived, I felt a big void. Probably during that year of PPL training I learned more about myself than I ever did. I don't really want to ask or know for that matter, am I too old? I will go and get that licence - without it, I will never know for sure. And in case if things don't work out, I'm sure a CPL/IR will make me a better pilot anyway. As long as I don't shut any doors behind me, I can always fall back on my current career and enjoy flying as a hobby.. ultimately I've never really regret things I have done, I only regret those which I don't
However I enjoy flying, I enjoy learning. I didn't start my PPL with a view of turning it into career, I just wanted to fly. But as soon as my training was done and winter weather arrived, I felt a big void. Probably during that year of PPL training I learned more about myself than I ever did. I don't really want to ask or know for that matter, am I too old? I will go and get that licence - without it, I will never know for sure. And in case if things don't work out, I'm sure a CPL/IR will make me a better pilot anyway. As long as I don't shut any doors behind me, I can always fall back on my current career and enjoy flying as a hobby.. ultimately I've never really regret things I have done, I only regret those which I don't
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Don't worry at 28, you not even close to be being to old. The question arises and should be considered more seriously when you approach late 30's or early 40's , if it it's a gamble worth taking.
Lets be clear, if you have the money to do your training at this age, you have most likely been pretty successful in your "other" career in some way, and you are accustomed to a certain lifestyle.
That is probably the biggest shock to the system, is that the aviation industry treat people not always in the best way and the way you expect to be normal. So your life standards and exceptions should be lowered, at least until you get to a company and position where you feel you are ready to settle.
Lets be clear, if you have the money to do your training at this age, you have most likely been pretty successful in your "other" career in some way, and you are accustomed to a certain lifestyle.
That is probably the biggest shock to the system, is that the aviation industry treat people not always in the best way and the way you expect to be normal. So your life standards and exceptions should be lowered, at least until you get to a company and position where you feel you are ready to settle.
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Lets be clear, if you have the money to do your training at this age, you have most likely been pretty successful in your "other" career in some way, and you are accustomed to a certain lifestyle.
