The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bealzebub.
Point taken about spelling however i did not realise we had to use spell check here or be word perfect my apologies.
I also agree with you that the training and crm is indeed a very high standard however i know of two cadets recently failing type rating exams and we all know of pilots not making it through line training.It does happen and quite rightly so and it is not often discussed on pprune.
Having read SOME of your posts here you remind me of my old mentor and training captain who we used to call victor meldrew from the comedy show one foot in the grave but who i actually quite respected.
This thread is related to age and starting training and such issues as life experience are bound to be discussed and your opinion that people with life experience have nothing else to offer is very much misguided .One of the major attributes of life experience is ability to cope in stressfull situations.
It is worth noting that the iata recomendations state that the thirty to fifty age bracket has statistically been proven to be the most productive age bracket in terms of learning ability etc.
Perhaps you would like to give us your educated opinion on airlines who take on people for type ratings and make considerable profits on those said type ratings and put people in hold pools for years maybe at a time also your opinion on mpl licences instead of nit picking but that is going off thread.
Apologies to all for typos or spelling errors.
Point taken about spelling however i did not realise we had to use spell check here or be word perfect my apologies.
I also agree with you that the training and crm is indeed a very high standard however i know of two cadets recently failing type rating exams and we all know of pilots not making it through line training.It does happen and quite rightly so and it is not often discussed on pprune.
Having read SOME of your posts here you remind me of my old mentor and training captain who we used to call victor meldrew from the comedy show one foot in the grave but who i actually quite respected.
This thread is related to age and starting training and such issues as life experience are bound to be discussed and your opinion that people with life experience have nothing else to offer is very much misguided .One of the major attributes of life experience is ability to cope in stressfull situations.
It is worth noting that the iata recomendations state that the thirty to fifty age bracket has statistically been proven to be the most productive age bracket in terms of learning ability etc.
Perhaps you would like to give us your educated opinion on airlines who take on people for type ratings and make considerable profits on those said type ratings and put people in hold pools for years maybe at a time also your opinion on mpl licences instead of nit picking but that is going off thread.
Apologies to all for typos or spelling errors.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the risk of exposing my spelling and grammar, life experience is a very subjective phenomenon and does not necessarily go with age.
No doubt there are plenty of people in their 30s/ 40s who live with their parents and sit indoors all night playing online games.
Equally there will be people in their teens/ 20s who will have spent time in cadet forces, completed their DofE awards and volunteer within their community.
Life experience can only be quantified on a case by case basis and should not be generalised. I can only hope that recruitment professionals understand this.
No doubt there are plenty of people in their 30s/ 40s who live with their parents and sit indoors all night playing online games.
Equally there will be people in their teens/ 20s who will have spent time in cadet forces, completed their DofE awards and volunteer within their community.
Life experience can only be quantified on a case by case basis and should not be generalised. I can only hope that recruitment professionals understand this.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dusty crop
The general demographic with cadets is that the majority tend to be in their mid twenties. The remainder tend to be weighted more in their early twenties with a few late teens, and some in their thirties. The older cadets often have stronger financial platforms. For example, they will often have used a previous career to finance (wholly or in part) their ab-initio training regime.
In my experience, cadets from the higher age group progress at very much the same pace as the younger ones. There seems to be little discernable difference. A comment that is frequently proffered by the older cadets themselves, is that they felt their younger classmates had the advantage of more recent school/university/education experience, which was something they themselves had to re-adjust to. That is their perception, it doesn't seem to make any difference to their real world progression.
As for "stressful situations" the idea that younger cadets present deficiencies in this area is frankly nonsense. As for "life experience" the general conversations I have with pilots from any age group are equally interesting based on their individual "life experience" and it really doesn't correlate to their flying or management ability for any given point along the general learning curve.
Those airlines with cadet programmes are looking for individuals who will be able to progress rapidly up a very steep learning curve. They will display maturity and common sense, and they will become productive in a timely and cost efficient way to the commercial enterprise. The companies do not expect, want, or notably experience, cadets failing. Their selection, ab-initio training, and advanced training is all designed to minimize those risks. It is a regimen that has existed for over 50 years now, and has expanded markedly in the last two decades.
I am afraid the term "life experience" tends to be a bit of a "red flag." It is intentionally non-specific and means whatever you want it to mean. If a company is looking for particular attributes (and they always are) it would expect them to shine through and be highlighted from the "life experience". It is rather like the people who state they have an ICAO pilots licence. It means nothing (they are nearly all ICAO state issued licences.) It is used to mask the fact, that it isn't necessarily the specific one that a company requires.
By the time a twenty year old, or a thirty year old reaches the flight deck, their ability to cope with the relevant stressors will have been tested and assessed many times. The "fear" and stress of going in the simulator in a jeopardy testing scenario is an everyday event. I can assure you that some perfectly capable "life experienced" pilots start to dissolve at the prospect. Something they would never do on the line.
The point of replying here, is to offer the benefit of experience. There are plenty of people with opinions some of which are based on the way they wish the world was, rather than the way it actually is. I am not concerned whether anybody wishes to ignore the comment, challenge it, or use it as part of their personal tool kit.
As for "spelling and grammar" on an international bulletin board I doubt there is a high expectation, although a lot of people clearly make a lot of effort. The theme of the site "professional pilots" involves clear communication at it's core. There is a great deal of mature comment on these threads and often from people for whom English isn't their first language. It is difficult to support the idea that someone is advocating their maturity/life experience when an entire post is full of emoticons, text speak, and punctuation substituting for gaps between words.
i wonder if u would nt agree......with,that,suggestion....LOL
Yes, it is off topic, and I have made many hundreds of posts on the subjects of training and licensing, most of them providing some factual historical background to the evolution involved in those subjects. They are all there to read if you really want to.
The general demographic with cadets is that the majority tend to be in their mid twenties. The remainder tend to be weighted more in their early twenties with a few late teens, and some in their thirties. The older cadets often have stronger financial platforms. For example, they will often have used a previous career to finance (wholly or in part) their ab-initio training regime.
In my experience, cadets from the higher age group progress at very much the same pace as the younger ones. There seems to be little discernable difference. A comment that is frequently proffered by the older cadets themselves, is that they felt their younger classmates had the advantage of more recent school/university/education experience, which was something they themselves had to re-adjust to. That is their perception, it doesn't seem to make any difference to their real world progression.
As for "stressful situations" the idea that younger cadets present deficiencies in this area is frankly nonsense. As for "life experience" the general conversations I have with pilots from any age group are equally interesting based on their individual "life experience" and it really doesn't correlate to their flying or management ability for any given point along the general learning curve.
Those airlines with cadet programmes are looking for individuals who will be able to progress rapidly up a very steep learning curve. They will display maturity and common sense, and they will become productive in a timely and cost efficient way to the commercial enterprise. The companies do not expect, want, or notably experience, cadets failing. Their selection, ab-initio training, and advanced training is all designed to minimize those risks. It is a regimen that has existed for over 50 years now, and has expanded markedly in the last two decades.
I am afraid the term "life experience" tends to be a bit of a "red flag." It is intentionally non-specific and means whatever you want it to mean. If a company is looking for particular attributes (and they always are) it would expect them to shine through and be highlighted from the "life experience". It is rather like the people who state they have an ICAO pilots licence. It means nothing (they are nearly all ICAO state issued licences.) It is used to mask the fact, that it isn't necessarily the specific one that a company requires.
By the time a twenty year old, or a thirty year old reaches the flight deck, their ability to cope with the relevant stressors will have been tested and assessed many times. The "fear" and stress of going in the simulator in a jeopardy testing scenario is an everyday event. I can assure you that some perfectly capable "life experienced" pilots start to dissolve at the prospect. Something they would never do on the line.
The point of replying here, is to offer the benefit of experience. There are plenty of people with opinions some of which are based on the way they wish the world was, rather than the way it actually is. I am not concerned whether anybody wishes to ignore the comment, challenge it, or use it as part of their personal tool kit.
As for "spelling and grammar" on an international bulletin board I doubt there is a high expectation, although a lot of people clearly make a lot of effort. The theme of the site "professional pilots" involves clear communication at it's core. There is a great deal of mature comment on these threads and often from people for whom English isn't their first language. It is difficult to support the idea that someone is advocating their maturity/life experience when an entire post is full of emoticons, text speak, and punctuation substituting for gaps between words.
i wonder if u would nt agree......with,that,suggestion....LOL
Perhaps you would like to give us your educated opinion on airlines who take on people for type ratings and make considerable profits on those said type ratings and put people in hold pools for years maybe at a time also your opinion on mpl licences instead of nit picking but that is going off thread
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beazelbub.
I agree with nearly all of your last post unfortunatly every week i land on a runway in ork where i and quite a lot of pilots i know feel that youth and the type of "stressfull situations" that you dismiss had a contributing factor in a serious accident.
I feel it there in foggy conditions however that is only my humble opinion and i emphasise the contributing factor aspect.
I agree with nearly all of your last post unfortunatly every week i land on a runway in ork where i and quite a lot of pilots i know feel that youth and the type of "stressfull situations" that you dismiss had a contributing factor in a serious accident.
I feel it there in foggy conditions however that is only my humble opinion and i emphasise the contributing factor aspect.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok. Firstly I don't "dismiss" stressful situations. The point I was making was that the age of cadets is fairly irrelevant in how they are handled. Almost every working day (for the last 38 years) I have landed on a runway where somebody or other had an accident. Age is rarely a factor in those accidents. Poor training, poor CRM, and poor monitoring, often are though.
It is the application of better and more relevant competency based training, as well as continuous improvements in selection and monitoring that reduces the incidences of accidents and serious incidents. The idea that "life experience" rather than "relevant experience and training" is a suitable substitute, is simply wishful thinking I am afraid.
I am always impressed by the standards of pilots who have successfully graduated through the cadet process. It is a very steep learning curve. The standards expected are high, consistent, and demanding. Training pilots expect to see a high degree of application and commitment from those cadets. If they don't, then it is unlikely the cadet would have presented to an airline in the first place, and even if that were not the case, it is very unlikely they would progress much further. That is where the focus lies. It is of precious little interest to those training staff how many years somebody spent in I.T, or in the Police force, or how many divorces they have under their belt if those primary issues are not being met. It is probably of precious little interest even when they are!
To reiterate the point, it is about good quality training and learning in the specific competencies required for the role. It has to be! A twenty year old cadet will have whatever "life experience" they acquire 10 years later, just as a 30 year old cadet may have now. However, it is simply not relevant and nor does it substitute for the required competencies.
It is the application of better and more relevant competency based training, as well as continuous improvements in selection and monitoring that reduces the incidences of accidents and serious incidents. The idea that "life experience" rather than "relevant experience and training" is a suitable substitute, is simply wishful thinking I am afraid.
I am always impressed by the standards of pilots who have successfully graduated through the cadet process. It is a very steep learning curve. The standards expected are high, consistent, and demanding. Training pilots expect to see a high degree of application and commitment from those cadets. If they don't, then it is unlikely the cadet would have presented to an airline in the first place, and even if that were not the case, it is very unlikely they would progress much further. That is where the focus lies. It is of precious little interest to those training staff how many years somebody spent in I.T, or in the Police force, or how many divorces they have under their belt if those primary issues are not being met. It is probably of precious little interest even when they are!
To reiterate the point, it is about good quality training and learning in the specific competencies required for the role. It has to be! A twenty year old cadet will have whatever "life experience" they acquire 10 years later, just as a 30 year old cadet may have now. However, it is simply not relevant and nor does it substitute for the required competencies.
Last edited by Bealzebub; 11th Jun 2015 at 16:51.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Six people were killed in that accident i mention regretablly and both pilots had all training etc.
However without going off topic can i ask you beazelbub what in your opinion is "too old " to start training or apply as a cadet?
I am aware it is like asking how long is a piece of string but do you think airlines or even turboprop operators have age restrictions keeping in mind eu law states age discrimination is illegal.
Thankyou
However without going off topic can i ask you beazelbub what in your opinion is "too old " to start training or apply as a cadet?
I am aware it is like asking how long is a piece of string but do you think airlines or even turboprop operators have age restrictions keeping in mind eu law states age discrimination is illegal.
Thankyou
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However without going off topic can i ask you beazelbub what in your opinion is "too old " to start training or apply as a cadet?
In reality, the main criteria would be economic ones. Could an individual (who had to,) recoup their likely investment over a potential return period. Does an individual feel that their ability is likely to keep pace with the steep and competitive learning curve required. Would the individuals requirements provide a fair and reasonable return to the potential employer in respect of any investment they might make.
I suspect that the laws of natural selection play a significant part in the realities of selection attrition. I doubt there are many employers that flout the regulations in respect of age discrimination, however given that it tends to become harder and more time consuming for most people to learn new skills as they naturally age, coupled with the increasing imbalance of competition from a more youthful demographic, I would suppose that the odds of success generally become lower as age increases.
As already mentioned, the natural demographic for cadets tends (as with many other vocations) to centre on the school\university leaver with an age band of 19-26, and becomes progressively lower as you deviate away from that demographic.
It is also worth bearing in mind that laws applicable in say the US or the EU, have no bearing on laws in other parts of the world. This might (and does) prevent groups of qualified pilots from moving to those areas by sole reason of their age. It may also put reverse pressure on those first and second tier jobs by very experienced pilots (in the pre-retirement phase of their careers,) moving back home from such regions
Age discrimination legislation has also served to provide very experienced pilots with significant extensions to their lifetime careers, in some cases by up to 10 years! That clearly restricts the career throughput, where pressure is taken off the top tiers. It is far more common now (than say ten or even five years ago) to see senior pilots taking part time (and full time) positions, supplemented by a pension income. At the entry level, competition is extremely intense and there is simply no shortage (or anything like it) of quality resourced applicants. For many would be career changers, the risk/reward ratios are simply too highly weighted against them to meet the normal commitments likely to be found in older candidates.
All food for thought, and as I say every case is unique. However it would be very wrong of me to suggest that something abstract and ethereal is in reality ever likely to prove advantageous.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, just this one, with a full career spectrum of relevant experience on which to proffer the information. The perspective is from the inside and relates to the topic on which the question is being asked.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Greece
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting to know.
It would be alarming if the harshness of competition many of your posts imply was in comparison to more down to earth(pun intended) lines of work.
The younger,cheaper (in salary or RoI) guy is a fierce competitor in other fields as well. I have personally come across and accepted that. Probably I was that competition some years back.
I do feel a bit more optimistic now.
The cost of training though is still a significant entry barrier that differentiates this career path and should definitely not be taken lightly.
It would be alarming if the harshness of competition many of your posts imply was in comparison to more down to earth(pun intended) lines of work.
The younger,cheaper (in salary or RoI) guy is a fierce competitor in other fields as well. I have personally come across and accepted that. Probably I was that competition some years back.
I do feel a bit more optimistic now.
The cost of training though is still a significant entry barrier that differentiates this career path and should definitely not be taken lightly.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bealzebub - entirely agree with your observations. I've flown with mature and professional 19-22 year olds and immature and somewhat childish 50-60 year olds...life experience has nothing to do with it other than perhaps to enhance the conversational quality in the cruise and at the bar if you happen to have had some notable life experiences 
Interested in mockinkjay's comment about it being just a job as it struck a cord and reminded me of a recent encounter with an old friend who, at 19 managed to secure the financing to put himself though a self-sponsored integrated course at one of the large UK schools. Subsequently paid for a type-rating and joined a well-known B737 operator in the West of Europe, and based close to his home so none of the social issues described by mockingkjay. He later moved to a London based B747 operator, the type he currently operates. He categorically told me that he hated every minute of his first job and is bored to tears in his current role, so I suppose the comment made by Lindsay Craig that an airline career is not for everyone was certainly accurate in my friend's case. He is an upbeat, motivated and highly professional person now in his late 20's, but he says the only reason he's stuck with it is because he'd invested so much getting there.
Food for thought...I think.
Interested in mockinkjay's comment about it being just a job as it struck a cord and reminded me of a recent encounter with an old friend who, at 19 managed to secure the financing to put himself though a self-sponsored integrated course at one of the large UK schools. Subsequently paid for a type-rating and joined a well-known B737 operator in the West of Europe, and based close to his home so none of the social issues described by mockingkjay. He later moved to a London based B747 operator, the type he currently operates. He categorically told me that he hated every minute of his first job and is bored to tears in his current role, so I suppose the comment made by Lindsay Craig that an airline career is not for everyone was certainly accurate in my friend's case. He is an upbeat, motivated and highly professional person now in his late 20's, but he says the only reason he's stuck with it is because he'd invested so much getting there.
Food for thought...I think.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Age: 46
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello.
So I've been doing the odd lessons spread over a few years to get my PPL with more regular ones this year. Before I took my first trial lesson I thought about a career change to a commercial pilot, so had a trial lesson to see if I liked it and I did ! so here I am with a few more hours towards my ppl but now like most don't see any light at the end of the tunnel to a career as a pilot which is now making me think do I just stop completely and not even get my ppl. I know a lot we say get a ppl and fly for fun add ratings etc but I still don't see the point if I'm not going to get the job at the end. It seems a waste of money. Am I literally talking myself out of it or actually maybe this career isn't for me and face facts that I might just enjoy flying but don't want it as a career ?
Anyone else in or been in this situation ?
So I've been doing the odd lessons spread over a few years to get my PPL with more regular ones this year. Before I took my first trial lesson I thought about a career change to a commercial pilot, so had a trial lesson to see if I liked it and I did ! so here I am with a few more hours towards my ppl but now like most don't see any light at the end of the tunnel to a career as a pilot which is now making me think do I just stop completely and not even get my ppl. I know a lot we say get a ppl and fly for fun add ratings etc but I still don't see the point if I'm not going to get the job at the end. It seems a waste of money. Am I literally talking myself out of it or actually maybe this career isn't for me and face facts that I might just enjoy flying but don't want it as a career ?
Anyone else in or been in this situation ?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: newcastle upon tyne
Age: 48
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saw77
Yes in a very similar position but completed my PPL around 4 years ago and even started the hour building, have around 80 hours now. However your right it is not a cheap hobby, couple that with trying to remain current to fly club aircraft every 28 days, weather and family restraints its a challenge. I started when I was 33 with the ultimate goal of going to the Airlines, seven years ago the industry was in a better place and I thought I would make it.
I have just let my SEP lapse this year due to lack of hours and also just turning 40 last month the odds are now stacked against me to go commercial. I am in the same boat is it worth continuing as a hobby due to cost. Or I have got this far I could gamble the lot go commercial for probably a poor return. Its difficult to even get time to complete the training due to wife, kids and time off work to complete ATPL exams which I started to study. Unless you have the time, money, work life balance and are confident you can get a job quickly its difficult, but I am sure it can and has been done by someone. If you meet that person let me know.
Yes in a very similar position but completed my PPL around 4 years ago and even started the hour building, have around 80 hours now. However your right it is not a cheap hobby, couple that with trying to remain current to fly club aircraft every 28 days, weather and family restraints its a challenge. I started when I was 33 with the ultimate goal of going to the Airlines, seven years ago the industry was in a better place and I thought I would make it.
I have just let my SEP lapse this year due to lack of hours and also just turning 40 last month the odds are now stacked against me to go commercial. I am in the same boat is it worth continuing as a hobby due to cost. Or I have got this far I could gamble the lot go commercial for probably a poor return. Its difficult to even get time to complete the training due to wife, kids and time off work to complete ATPL exams which I started to study. Unless you have the time, money, work life balance and are confident you can get a job quickly its difficult, but I am sure it can and has been done by someone. If you meet that person let me know.
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
34 years old PPL just over 200 hours TT,Night rating,IRR(formerly IMC).Too old?
To give a brief outline of my circumstances I have what is given above in the title I'm 34 years old and earn around £35 per year after tax in an occupation I can tolerate but by no means like.I have paid my mortgage off and I aren't into fancy cars or expensive stuff(except flying of course which is probably more expensive and addictive than a coke habit).
I have no degree but did well in general education and have equivalent qualifications in road transport.
Now that it's meant to be illegal for employers to discriminate based upon age? I'm considering whether at my time of life it would make more sense to turn what I enjoy doing as a hobby into what I do for a living and make money from it?
Whilst I know there is no as such right or wrong answer I would like some un bias views/opinions from people who know what they are talking about on whether based on the information and circumstances I've given to you whether I'm too late in life to pursue an airline pilot career or whether to go for it.Obviously if I were to go to an FTO they'd just fill my head with BS/and brainwash about pilot shortages and huge salaries to get me to sign up so no point going there
Although like everybody I need to earn some money, because my living costs are at the moment so low a huge salary isn't essential.
one more important point I maybe about to become a family man in the next couple of years .So professional pilot training could be an investment or a detriment to future finances.
All constructive advice views welcome.Thank you.
I have no degree but did well in general education and have equivalent qualifications in road transport.
Now that it's meant to be illegal for employers to discriminate based upon age? I'm considering whether at my time of life it would make more sense to turn what I enjoy doing as a hobby into what I do for a living and make money from it?
Whilst I know there is no as such right or wrong answer I would like some un bias views/opinions from people who know what they are talking about on whether based on the information and circumstances I've given to you whether I'm too late in life to pursue an airline pilot career or whether to go for it.Obviously if I were to go to an FTO they'd just fill my head with BS/and brainwash about pilot shortages and huge salaries to get me to sign up so no point going there
Although like everybody I need to earn some money, because my living costs are at the moment so low a huge salary isn't essential.
one more important point I maybe about to become a family man in the next couple of years .So professional pilot training could be an investment or a detriment to future finances.
All constructive advice views welcome.Thank you.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tough decision
If it helps any of the posters here, I bailed from a well paid IT career aged 34, did an integrated course, went back to IT for 18 months job hunting and finally landed a turboprop job with a leading regional.
For about 12 months I was based 400 miles from my wife and two year old which was really difficult. I did enjoy the flying far more than IT and after a year managed to get a base where I could live at home.
I spent nearly 8 years at the regional airline before landing my dream airline job with a large international carrier.
Financially aged 46 I now live in a 4 bed detached house worth £450-500k but with a £330 000 mortgage. At age 33 in IT before pilot training I lived in an equivalent house of similar value but had a £169 000 mortgage. The difference is explained by the years I spent on a low salary as a regional FO on an interest only mortgage and the fact that we remortgaged to cover the training fees and the period I was a student. My wife has a decently paid job.
In truth I do enjoy flying far more than an office job but as some other posters have said it eventually becomes work and in truth I'd rather be at home with the family this weekend than away nightstopping and working. I'm more tired due to the shiftwork than I was in IT and so days off are often spent trying to rest and catch up on sleep. This gets worse as you get older - as an office worker I was usually full of beans on days off.
If I'd stayed in IT I reckon there's a good chance my mortage would be nearly gone and I could be looking forward to retiring in perhaps the next 5-10 years in my early fifties and spending my leisure time enjoying myself at home playing guitar or watching movies or cycling. Unfortunately this will not happen having chosen the flying option. I have no doubt that a day in a plane is generally more enjoyable than a day in an office, but even I'm not sure if that's enough recompense to make up for the delayed retirement! A day in a plane is not more enjoyable than a day playing guitar!
So, that's my insight from somebody who did it and followed the dream. I've seen some great views, flown with some amazing pilots and am truly proud to do the job and most days I still enjoy it to a degree. But it has a big impact on your personal life in terms of shared leisure time with your family, the stress of studying for exams, type ratings and checkrides etc and the rostering is getting more punishing everywhere.
If you've a good career and are in your thirties my advice is to think very carefully before doing it. Another option if you have a well paid but boring job is to go part time to make it more enjoyable - it will be cheaper than this career option!
DP
For about 12 months I was based 400 miles from my wife and two year old which was really difficult. I did enjoy the flying far more than IT and after a year managed to get a base where I could live at home.
I spent nearly 8 years at the regional airline before landing my dream airline job with a large international carrier.
Financially aged 46 I now live in a 4 bed detached house worth £450-500k but with a £330 000 mortgage. At age 33 in IT before pilot training I lived in an equivalent house of similar value but had a £169 000 mortgage. The difference is explained by the years I spent on a low salary as a regional FO on an interest only mortgage and the fact that we remortgaged to cover the training fees and the period I was a student. My wife has a decently paid job.
In truth I do enjoy flying far more than an office job but as some other posters have said it eventually becomes work and in truth I'd rather be at home with the family this weekend than away nightstopping and working. I'm more tired due to the shiftwork than I was in IT and so days off are often spent trying to rest and catch up on sleep. This gets worse as you get older - as an office worker I was usually full of beans on days off.
If I'd stayed in IT I reckon there's a good chance my mortage would be nearly gone and I could be looking forward to retiring in perhaps the next 5-10 years in my early fifties and spending my leisure time enjoying myself at home playing guitar or watching movies or cycling. Unfortunately this will not happen having chosen the flying option. I have no doubt that a day in a plane is generally more enjoyable than a day in an office, but even I'm not sure if that's enough recompense to make up for the delayed retirement! A day in a plane is not more enjoyable than a day playing guitar!
So, that's my insight from somebody who did it and followed the dream. I've seen some great views, flown with some amazing pilots and am truly proud to do the job and most days I still enjoy it to a degree. But it has a big impact on your personal life in terms of shared leisure time with your family, the stress of studying for exams, type ratings and checkrides etc and the rostering is getting more punishing everywhere.
If you've a good career and are in your thirties my advice is to think very carefully before doing it. Another option if you have a well paid but boring job is to go part time to make it more enjoyable - it will be cheaper than this career option!
DP
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the previous poster! If you have a good career and you are in your thirties, think very rational and in numbers. Dont quit your job for the sake of flying. If you have a good career, freelance flying might be an option, but flying as your main job........think not twice but hundred times.
I was half in my twenties when i started my training. It took me 3 years to get my first flying job. Now i am still flyng for a small bizz jet operator and i can tell you....it really s....
!! Always being on stand by, getting underpaid, getting phonecalls on off days, being away from friends and family. The last 4.5 years i have been looking to other flying jobs. Not 1 single gig i got. Got always the middlefinger in my face: not having the typerating, not having experience on aicraft above 20 Tons, not being able to speak fluently the local language etc. It was always something, although i got experience, but operators simply dont care about experience anymore (tunnelvision). I also feel that in the mean time i am not current anymore with new technologies because i only fly with old aircraft. So yes in some way i am not "up to date". And in the mean time i am getting older. Oh, and the lpc like hell. A joke it is. It is all very disturbing and yes, i can truly say, i am not feeling a professional pilot anymore.
Now i gave up on applying and decided to throw the towel in the ring. I really did my best to improve but somehow......i dont know. I am now putting my focus on other things in my private life (friends, hobbies, buying a small house...)Yes i am still working with the same company, but reducing my flexibility and looking for another job in other field..
What i experience can happen to you as well. You dont have all things in your hands. Make sure you have a back up plan and like i said: think in numbers. If you have a nice career, would you be able to have the same lifestyle when you fly with a pilot salary??? And don't neglect your private life. I discovered it is sooooo important. I even would say, it is the fundament of ones life.
A friend of me, who is already 50, got recently a job with a regional carrier in the States. No life at all, living in crash pads and underpaid as hell. All for the sake of sitting in a cockpit.
Good luck and decide wise!
I was half in my twenties when i started my training. It took me 3 years to get my first flying job. Now i am still flyng for a small bizz jet operator and i can tell you....it really s....
!! Always being on stand by, getting underpaid, getting phonecalls on off days, being away from friends and family. The last 4.5 years i have been looking to other flying jobs. Not 1 single gig i got. Got always the middlefinger in my face: not having the typerating, not having experience on aicraft above 20 Tons, not being able to speak fluently the local language etc. It was always something, although i got experience, but operators simply dont care about experience anymore (tunnelvision). I also feel that in the mean time i am not current anymore with new technologies because i only fly with old aircraft. So yes in some way i am not "up to date". And in the mean time i am getting older. Oh, and the lpc like hell. A joke it is. It is all very disturbing and yes, i can truly say, i am not feeling a professional pilot anymore.Now i gave up on applying and decided to throw the towel in the ring. I really did my best to improve but somehow......i dont know. I am now putting my focus on other things in my private life (friends, hobbies, buying a small house...)Yes i am still working with the same company, but reducing my flexibility and looking for another job in other field..
What i experience can happen to you as well. You dont have all things in your hands. Make sure you have a back up plan and like i said: think in numbers. If you have a nice career, would you be able to have the same lifestyle when you fly with a pilot salary??? And don't neglect your private life. I discovered it is sooooo important. I even would say, it is the fundament of ones life.
A friend of me, who is already 50, got recently a job with a regional carrier in the States. No life at all, living in crash pads and underpaid as hell. All for the sake of sitting in a cockpit.
Good luck and decide wise!
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Woking
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I too old to get a job?
Am I too old to get a job?
I know, I know, it's a perennial question. I've signed up to get some advice and have spent an hour or two reading past threads on the subject, but I haven't found anything recent and it strikes me that the world is very different from how it was a few years ago. Also, the threads I've read are from people in a very different situation personally, financially and in terms of flying experience. Of course, what I've read has been pretty negative, but I wanted to find out whether anything has changed, and whether my circumstances make the risk low enough to be worth taking.
I am 43 years old. I am married, but with no kids and a family isn't going to happen. My wife works and earns a decent salary as a school teacher; we could survive on her pay for a few years if we needed to. Our mortgage is not too far from being paid off, although that will be delayed if I were to spend 18 months training followed by searching for a job. But I reckon we'd be okay, even if I ultimately had to abandon the flying idea and do something else.
I have a lapsed PPL with 400+ hours on light singles, of which 300+ P1. So this means I already have 90% of the prerequisite experience for the CPL (just lacking night) - that is 200 hours of flying that I won't have to do. I also have an IMC rating (although I never used it) - so the IR won't be quite as difficult as it would be for someone with no instrument flying. Still very tough, I know.
With my flying experience, I reckon I could get to fATPL for around £30-35k. I am in the fortunate position of having shares that will easily cover that, so no need to increase the mortgage. I won't be putting myself into debt; in fact I'll still have enough savings to put towards a type rating if I need to.
Flying friends have told me that the ATPL theories will be hard work, but I won't struggle. I have a degree in mathematics and a strong scientific background; in fact, I really like the idea of doing some intense studying! Okay, there's some boring stuff to learn as well as the interesting technical stuff, but that's okay.
I gave up my job as a software development team leader just before Christmas, because I was getting too much project management and corporate bull**** and it was making me stressed and unhappy. I was earning very decent money and I'm under no illusions that I'll probably never earn that much again, but I don't really care. A FO job flying Dash-8s for Flybe would be a £35k pay cut, but hey-ho!
If I'm honest, I'd rather not have to move. I live in Woking, which puts Heathrow, Gatwick, Southampton, possibly Bournemouth, and probably City within commuting distance. Luton and Stansted would be a bit of a ball-ache, but I could probably do that for a while. In terms of job style, I'd rather not be away from home for more than a few days at a time, a week max. Within these parameters, I'm willing to consider the less glamorous jobs, including more 'niche' flying - but an airline or regional passenger flying job would be ideal.
At the moment, I'm applying the "Regret Test": imagining myself in 10 years' time, will I look back and regret it more if I try and fail, or if I don't try? I kinda think I'd regret it more if I don't try.
Obviously I've put a positive spin on things. But what do you think? Is there a realistic chance of my finding something?
I know, I know, it's a perennial question. I've signed up to get some advice and have spent an hour or two reading past threads on the subject, but I haven't found anything recent and it strikes me that the world is very different from how it was a few years ago. Also, the threads I've read are from people in a very different situation personally, financially and in terms of flying experience. Of course, what I've read has been pretty negative, but I wanted to find out whether anything has changed, and whether my circumstances make the risk low enough to be worth taking.
I am 43 years old. I am married, but with no kids and a family isn't going to happen. My wife works and earns a decent salary as a school teacher; we could survive on her pay for a few years if we needed to. Our mortgage is not too far from being paid off, although that will be delayed if I were to spend 18 months training followed by searching for a job. But I reckon we'd be okay, even if I ultimately had to abandon the flying idea and do something else.
I have a lapsed PPL with 400+ hours on light singles, of which 300+ P1. So this means I already have 90% of the prerequisite experience for the CPL (just lacking night) - that is 200 hours of flying that I won't have to do. I also have an IMC rating (although I never used it) - so the IR won't be quite as difficult as it would be for someone with no instrument flying. Still very tough, I know.
With my flying experience, I reckon I could get to fATPL for around £30-35k. I am in the fortunate position of having shares that will easily cover that, so no need to increase the mortgage. I won't be putting myself into debt; in fact I'll still have enough savings to put towards a type rating if I need to.
Flying friends have told me that the ATPL theories will be hard work, but I won't struggle. I have a degree in mathematics and a strong scientific background; in fact, I really like the idea of doing some intense studying! Okay, there's some boring stuff to learn as well as the interesting technical stuff, but that's okay.
I gave up my job as a software development team leader just before Christmas, because I was getting too much project management and corporate bull**** and it was making me stressed and unhappy. I was earning very decent money and I'm under no illusions that I'll probably never earn that much again, but I don't really care. A FO job flying Dash-8s for Flybe would be a £35k pay cut, but hey-ho!
If I'm honest, I'd rather not have to move. I live in Woking, which puts Heathrow, Gatwick, Southampton, possibly Bournemouth, and probably City within commuting distance. Luton and Stansted would be a bit of a ball-ache, but I could probably do that for a while. In terms of job style, I'd rather not be away from home for more than a few days at a time, a week max. Within these parameters, I'm willing to consider the less glamorous jobs, including more 'niche' flying - but an airline or regional passenger flying job would be ideal.
At the moment, I'm applying the "Regret Test": imagining myself in 10 years' time, will I look back and regret it more if I try and fail, or if I don't try? I kinda think I'd regret it more if I don't try.
Obviously I've put a positive spin on things. But what do you think? Is there a realistic chance of my finding something?
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dr Mike Oxgreen; Been there, done that, know the pain and regret stories, tried it and yes I was lucky got a job. However few things, you need to realize, you have already limited yourself to much, if you believe you will get a job at any of those areas you mentioned.
There are many with thousands of hours experience, currently working abroad who is just waiting for jobs in these areas to be available, so to expect to get a UK job, is putting a big limitation on yourself.
I know loads of guys commuting from around Europe, the world, just waiting for chances with UK carriers to get home. Also you have flying schools like CTC who are propping up many of the major airlines with cadets, so do not expect to have a chance to get a job in the UK until you at least have 1000 - 1500 hours experience on some heavy metal.
Here is what I would say, as has been said many times before, you will have FTO's trying to get your cash, they will let you dream and believe. fATPL is one small step, but you will also need to pay for your TR, that can be another £20 - 35K, and this is nearly without any exception, specially at your ago, no airline will invest in your TR. No one. So you will need at least £70.000 to get you where you want to go.
Also current market situation, who knows what will be of FlyBe and Monarch within the next 5 years, there could be loads of pilots without jobs soon. Thats why loads are jumping ship from Monarch, because they are expecting the end to arrive soon.
The fact is, if you can accept to spend £70.000, and 5% chance of getting a job, and approx 0.1% chance that the job will be in the UK, then you should go for it.
I personally got there, did it, but it cost me a lot, and is still costing me a lot, both financially and personally. For 3 years I had almost no social life, no time or money to enjoy life, it is a hard job, and to be honest I sometimes consider my own sanity when I know what I could have used that money I made for.
I have managed to maintain a foot outside in other business too, and that is what saved me financially, and is what gives me the "freedom" to just quit if I have had enough of crap lifestyle and working conditions.
I now got few thousand hours on heavy jet, and I could NOT SURVIVE on my pay alone from flying, there is NO WAY I could survive and maintain my lifestyle on this money alone.
However I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, but I will need to work triple time for at least another 3 - 4 years.
There are many jaded pilots out there, who wish they could still fly just as a hobby, because it has it great moments, but when you doing 6 consecutive days, where you do multiple transitions from early mornings to late nights, back to mornings again, and you only get 2 full days of proper rest, it's really not worth it, because the financial reward does not match the sacrifices you have to make.
"I live in Woking, which puts Heathrow, Gatwick, Southampton, possibly Bournemouth, and probably City within commuting distance. Luton and Stansted would be a bit of a ball-ache" ; sorry to be the bearer of bad news, just to give you an example for the previous 3 years I commuted 4 hours by air EVERY week, with sometimes multiple flights/changes.
The last 1.5 year I have been commuting every working day around average of 4 hours (2 + 2) - So on a 12 hour duty day, with minimum rest, I have max 8 hours to relax, eat, life, write on PPRUNE, before I have to be on the go again. Have multiple days like this and you see real fatigue. Of course within limits of base, but you always need to calculate some buffer time, traffic, public transport issues, it NEVER ends! Uk jobs maybe in Scotland etc. if you are lucky. That's reality you need to expect.
As I said light soon in the end of the tunnel, as soon I will only have 30 minutes travel to work, and that will be like a whole new life! Still not enough money to survive though.
I am sorry this is not the answer you maybe are looking for, I know this from my own experience, looking for the answer that I wanted to see, confirmation bias!
There are many with thousands of hours experience, currently working abroad who is just waiting for jobs in these areas to be available, so to expect to get a UK job, is putting a big limitation on yourself.
I know loads of guys commuting from around Europe, the world, just waiting for chances with UK carriers to get home. Also you have flying schools like CTC who are propping up many of the major airlines with cadets, so do not expect to have a chance to get a job in the UK until you at least have 1000 - 1500 hours experience on some heavy metal.
Here is what I would say, as has been said many times before, you will have FTO's trying to get your cash, they will let you dream and believe. fATPL is one small step, but you will also need to pay for your TR, that can be another £20 - 35K, and this is nearly without any exception, specially at your ago, no airline will invest in your TR. No one. So you will need at least £70.000 to get you where you want to go.
Also current market situation, who knows what will be of FlyBe and Monarch within the next 5 years, there could be loads of pilots without jobs soon. Thats why loads are jumping ship from Monarch, because they are expecting the end to arrive soon.
The fact is, if you can accept to spend £70.000, and 5% chance of getting a job, and approx 0.1% chance that the job will be in the UK, then you should go for it.
I personally got there, did it, but it cost me a lot, and is still costing me a lot, both financially and personally. For 3 years I had almost no social life, no time or money to enjoy life, it is a hard job, and to be honest I sometimes consider my own sanity when I know what I could have used that money I made for.
I have managed to maintain a foot outside in other business too, and that is what saved me financially, and is what gives me the "freedom" to just quit if I have had enough of crap lifestyle and working conditions.
I now got few thousand hours on heavy jet, and I could NOT SURVIVE on my pay alone from flying, there is NO WAY I could survive and maintain my lifestyle on this money alone.
However I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, but I will need to work triple time for at least another 3 - 4 years.
There are many jaded pilots out there, who wish they could still fly just as a hobby, because it has it great moments, but when you doing 6 consecutive days, where you do multiple transitions from early mornings to late nights, back to mornings again, and you only get 2 full days of proper rest, it's really not worth it, because the financial reward does not match the sacrifices you have to make.
"I live in Woking, which puts Heathrow, Gatwick, Southampton, possibly Bournemouth, and probably City within commuting distance. Luton and Stansted would be a bit of a ball-ache" ; sorry to be the bearer of bad news, just to give you an example for the previous 3 years I commuted 4 hours by air EVERY week, with sometimes multiple flights/changes.
The last 1.5 year I have been commuting every working day around average of 4 hours (2 + 2) - So on a 12 hour duty day, with minimum rest, I have max 8 hours to relax, eat, life, write on PPRUNE, before I have to be on the go again. Have multiple days like this and you see real fatigue. Of course within limits of base, but you always need to calculate some buffer time, traffic, public transport issues, it NEVER ends! Uk jobs maybe in Scotland etc. if you are lucky. That's reality you need to expect.
As I said light soon in the end of the tunnel, as soon I will only have 30 minutes travel to work, and that will be like a whole new life! Still not enough money to survive though.
I am sorry this is not the answer you maybe are looking for, I know this from my own experience, looking for the answer that I wanted to see, confirmation bias!
Last edited by truckflyer; 22nd Jan 2016 at 23:51.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience
Here is my experience, I tried, I failed.
I'm 41 now. I had this brilliant idea myself, i started the flight training at 37 to change my career and work as a pilot.
PPL, then atpl theory, then cpl ir me in a very famous (and expensive) UK flight school.
Everything went fine, 92% ATPL results, first time pass for practical exam, MCC, JOC.... English icao level 6.
My english was poor when I started. When the teachers were making jokes, I was laughing to not sound retarded, but it took me a few month to get it....
as you can read it, I'm the new Shakespeare now.
A very nice work really. It took me 3 years for the whole process. And I'm still proud for what I've achieved.
I liked the theory, except air law and ops, awful.
My time building in the usa was awesome. I went from the west coast to the east coast in a piper 28, alone, sleeping sometimes in FBos, sometimes in hotels... Did some low pass over wild horses in Arizona, stopped a few nights in Texas for the music, landed in las vegas international with 80 hrs Total time !
Epic
Then the CPL IR in UK, in winter....real IMC flying.
Well, I enjoyed it. Then with my nice blue professional pilot license, I tried to get a job !
It won't be easy, I know, but I have good reports from my flight school, good recommendations, i speak fluently 3 languages, i have friends in the industry, it should work.
Well this was 2 years ago, and I still didn't get the chance to have an interview!
Not talking about a job, but just an interview ! Even from the crap companies that make you pay for an interview, they don't want to see me...
Some companies say no to my letters, CV, online applications, etc...but usually they just say nothing.
In my previous job, I was comfortable, things were easy, I was on the job for 15 years, people knew me, I had a status and respect.
As an unemployed pilot, things are a bit different...
After a year and a half of "online job hunting" for nothing, i decided to give it a try in Africa. I was used to Africa from my previous job. Same story there, you need 500hrs on type. Either for a 737, a beech or a C172, same rule, 500 hrs on type. Spent 2 months over there, quite an adventure as well, I could write a book...
Back in Europe now, "internet job hunting" .... Lovely...
I have no loan, i had the money for the training. My wife has a great job, i'm ok...
There will be a position available in my previous company in a few months, in a lovely place in Europe. I will take it (they like me a lot!) and stop with this aviation story. Next month I will renew my IR-ME (800€ again) for the last time.
Don't have the money or the motivation for a p2F theme. Don't want to be a part of this con.
Now that I'm here, would I do it again ?
I don't know. As crazy as it sounds, I would say yes. It would have been worst to never try I think. But I will always feel bitter entering an airport, seeing the planes, the staff...
The worst feeling is that I know that I would have done the job properly, with dedication and professionalism, and i would have loved it.
In my next life maybe.
I'm 41 now. I had this brilliant idea myself, i started the flight training at 37 to change my career and work as a pilot.
PPL, then atpl theory, then cpl ir me in a very famous (and expensive) UK flight school.
Everything went fine, 92% ATPL results, first time pass for practical exam, MCC, JOC.... English icao level 6.
My english was poor when I started. When the teachers were making jokes, I was laughing to not sound retarded, but it took me a few month to get it....
as you can read it, I'm the new Shakespeare now.
A very nice work really. It took me 3 years for the whole process. And I'm still proud for what I've achieved.
I liked the theory, except air law and ops, awful.
My time building in the usa was awesome. I went from the west coast to the east coast in a piper 28, alone, sleeping sometimes in FBos, sometimes in hotels... Did some low pass over wild horses in Arizona, stopped a few nights in Texas for the music, landed in las vegas international with 80 hrs Total time !
Epic
Then the CPL IR in UK, in winter....real IMC flying.
Well, I enjoyed it. Then with my nice blue professional pilot license, I tried to get a job !
It won't be easy, I know, but I have good reports from my flight school, good recommendations, i speak fluently 3 languages, i have friends in the industry, it should work.
Well this was 2 years ago, and I still didn't get the chance to have an interview!
Not talking about a job, but just an interview ! Even from the crap companies that make you pay for an interview, they don't want to see me...
Some companies say no to my letters, CV, online applications, etc...but usually they just say nothing.
In my previous job, I was comfortable, things were easy, I was on the job for 15 years, people knew me, I had a status and respect.
As an unemployed pilot, things are a bit different...
After a year and a half of "online job hunting" for nothing, i decided to give it a try in Africa. I was used to Africa from my previous job. Same story there, you need 500hrs on type. Either for a 737, a beech or a C172, same rule, 500 hrs on type. Spent 2 months over there, quite an adventure as well, I could write a book...
Back in Europe now, "internet job hunting" .... Lovely...
I have no loan, i had the money for the training. My wife has a great job, i'm ok...
There will be a position available in my previous company in a few months, in a lovely place in Europe. I will take it (they like me a lot!) and stop with this aviation story. Next month I will renew my IR-ME (800€ again) for the last time.
Don't have the money or the motivation for a p2F theme. Don't want to be a part of this con.
Now that I'm here, would I do it again ?
I don't know. As crazy as it sounds, I would say yes. It would have been worst to never try I think. But I will always feel bitter entering an airport, seeing the planes, the staff...
The worst feeling is that I know that I would have done the job properly, with dedication and professionalism, and i would have loved it.
In my next life maybe.