wiggy

Well if that was a response to nadz's post may politely I suggest you start working on your CRM skills...blowing somebody out of the water with a few platitudes when they have advocated their position quite eloquently ( BTW that is something that is a CRM skill) isn't going to go down well in a multi crew environment....

As for nadz's decision itself...well, life is different for everybody and sometimes people can't just drop everthing at the drop of a hat, so I'd be cutting some slack rather than being judgemental.......

jamesgrainge

There's a difference between someone giving advice who has tried and not succeeded, to someone who hasn't even tried, wouldn't you agree. CRM is taking relevant information to make a decision. We don't even know if he has a ppl.

The poster in question is more than welcome to share his "eloquent" viewpoint, and I reserve the right as an optimist currently working his way through it to encourage people to try the impossible.

macdo

I reckon a few folk on this thread need to refer back to post #1 for inspiration.
The large UK airline I work for have taken some quite elderly FO's on with low hours recently.

nadz

You are only 29, your situation is very different from someone mid forties, you have maybe 10 years from now to get your first flying job, older guys don't have that luxury. You are quick to pronounce judgement upon me without knowing any facts about my situation, life is complicated sometimes. a good pilot should be more considered and rational than to rush to conclusions like that.
my perspective as an outsider is relevant to guys in a similar situation to myself, we could all just say to older dreamers, ''go ahead and follow the dream'' but the negatives and likely outcome do need to be considered, if you are basically a bit too old.
I have an old friend the same age as myself who flies the 777 for BA and his advice is that its too late if you are my age. There will always be a few exceptions but that is what they are, exceptions, most older guys would just be wasting their money. even younger guys have had to give up after finishing training because they may have graduated into a bad hiring market and by the time things turn around again, a whole load of new eager younger graduates are competing for the same jobs. Times are good right now, but its cyclical and could go quiet again at anytime.

nadz

Define quite elderly

jamesgrainge

Do you posess a PPL?

Say a person has a PPL, has done at least 150 hours,possibly even has some further ratings accrued over the course of their life. At age 40 it's going to cost them £20k to go and do the CPL etc, qualified before 45, still has another 20 years of flying as a career. Why would you not?

As I have said before, without the paper the most you can ever fly is your imagination. Go for it, you're only here once and regret is a hell of a thing to live with.

nadz

In that scenario you are correct, if you already have most of the money spent then you should finish your training, but I am referring to someone mid forties who has yet to pay the full 80 to 100K to get fully trained up.
I haven't completed my PPL yet, i started it a long time ago, everything in life is easy until you have kids, then a lot of options disappear quickly.

rudestuff

You mean the full 40k to get trained up?

jamesgrainge

In that case can I respectfully ask you not to state what makes a "good pilot"?

Back to the question in hand, do you work in airline recruitment?

macdo

Late 30's. But I have to say most of the very low hour joiners are 20's. That said i know of one guy in his 50's with very low hours got to interview/sim.

Worth adding that i was 41 when taken on, with TP time only.

nadz

You must have started your TP job mid to late thirties. You could probably draw a line at 40 as the approximate cutoff age for a realistic chance to start an airline career, it does happen after 40 but it gets more unlikely, of the 50 plus year olds undergoing training, maybe only 1:50 will get any interview/assessment
and the older that you are, you better have a good pre flying career background story such as a good technical degree or something impressive to prove your competence, this applies to guys over 30 also, it doesn't look good on the cv if you are over 30 and have not achieved much professionally up to now apart from a fATPL licence.

PA28161

There is no such thing as a fATPL. When you graduate ATO (CTC/L3/OAAA et al) you have, hopefully, a CPL/IR/MCC[JOC]. The CAA does not recognise anything called a fATPL it doesn't exist. You get ATPL stamped on your licence after:

1500hrs of which 500 hrs is jet time on type
You have passed your airlines' line proficiency check/skill test after 1500 hrs
By this time you probably will be bumped up to a senior first officer

For some reason, which eludes me, people on this site seem to think that by passing the 14 ATPL theory exams they somehow become ATPL's or fATPL's.

In my profession, you do become a doctor until you are fully registered by the GMC after 6 months post graduate house physician/house surgeon posts in a recognised teaching hospital, even though you have passed all the pre-clinical and three-year post clinical exams

PA28161

Correction .....in my profession should read .. you don't.....

Citationcj2

The reason most people refer to it as a fATPL,( even some airlines call it fATPL as a part of their requirement , even there is no such thing) but it gives an indication that the licence holder has completed all the necessary skill tests, atpl exams, CPL,IR,MCC/JOC and so on.

Altough an fATPL holder is a CPL holder and working its way to the ATPL licence, a CPL holder only can also be someone that only completed 9 of the theory exam, as this is the only requirement for a CPL only holder. Not all CPL holders wish to work on JAR 25 aircraft.

So in theory if they were only referring it to a CPL holders, it could really be anyone on the list..hence fATPL saying

Reverserbucket

Almost PA28, 1500 hours of which 500 needs to be on a multi-pilot type, by which time you will have long passed an LPC. In BA, SFO is achieved after two years in the company regardless of previous experience.

nadz
...and who has possibly been at BA for a number of years with the accumulated seniority that brings as well as being on an attractive fleet. The prospect of starting out at the same age would mean it would be highly unlikely you would achieve the same before retirement (particularly if your friend is a Skipper) but not so for all operators. I was told last week that for one sizeable EU operator F/O recruits in their mid-30's to mid 40's are the most desirable because of what they will likely give back over the course of their employment - he cited commitment, life experience (particularly for potential training roles) and longevity with the company, meaning this group would more likely make a career with one operator than be tempted to head overseas in part due to other commitments etc. So the question is not so much age (although I agree with nadz that sharpness degrades of course) but really whether you can afford to devote yourself to full-time training (modular is pretty full-on regardless of what others say), absorb what is likely to be a sizable pay cut by the time you reach late-30's/early-40's, accept that you will be spending more time away from home (more than likely), be absent for family occasions (birthdays, Christmas etc), and accept that you will possibly not achieve command on a wide-body Airbus or Boeing before retirement, and assuming the cost of training is no barrier, why not?

Juanbpalacio14

Hi. Mi name is Juan. I'm a commercial pilot in Colombia with 213 hours and I have Spanish nacionality.
in this moment I'm in England and I 'm considering make my license conversion in Egnatia (Greece).(distance course )
I'm new europe (aviation enviroment) and is Very important for me, know about the real offer job to pilots with 200 hours . Is s good moment to study aviation?. If you pay a type rating for yourself, increases the oportunities to get a job?. Is the age a problem? Because when I finish the conversion I will be 28.
sorry for the questions but, As I said, I new in europe and I dont have a lot of information
thanks

JakubEGSC

I will be 38 when I finish training. I am still going in for it.

It's financially very hard and the brain is a bit stale - but the feeling of trying is exhilarating.

rudestuff

^^good for you. A great time to get into it.

DB777

JakubEGSC, i'm local to you – where are you going for ground school?

JakubEGSC

Hey DB777,

I live in Newmarket 15miles from Cambridge and fly from North Weald. If you fancy to meet up for a coffee or beer let me know I can drive up anywhere. Would be good meet fellow students.

I am doing ATPL theory with Bristol Ground School, but... via Bartolini Air in Poland (distance learning with 2 weeks of ground school in September).

PM me/Whatsapp/call if you want on 07784162735.

Jakub