Off to University for 3 years. Should I get my PPL?
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Put yourself in the shoes of an employer; are you going to hire the 19 year old with no proven life skills, or a 23 year old that has been to university and gotten a job afterwards to pay for (or at least contribute towards) their training? I know which I'd choose! As a passenger, who would you choose?
This is not what the situation would be for me. There is no way i will be ready for airline employment by the time I am 19! I will have to work and do the training modular. It may take me until I am 25 to be ready for an airline job (or any flying job at that)... Also I would have paid for my training without assistance. I think that sounds like life experience to me, maybe not pleasant, but real. Doing a degree would only set me back 3/4 years and I could very well end up with a job at the same level as I could have got with just A levels. You hear of graduates working in local shops, supermarkets etc due to the recession. The degree therefore wouldn't have helped. On top of that I would have to pay off my uni debts, however low the interest rates are that could be around Ģ20-25K.
I do however accept that in terms of security a degree is ideal and that Uni would be good fun, but I don't think that it would help me to get a flying job, it would simply be there just in case professional flying is unattainable. Lets face it airlines, don't care whether you have a degree, as long as you have done something with your life and you can show your passion for flying!
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You hear of graduates working in local shops, supermarkets etc due to the recession. The degree therefore wouldn't have helped.
Lets face it airlines, don't care whether you have a degree, as long as you have done something with your life and you can show your passion for flying
1st Team working skills
2nd Aircraft handling
3rd Leadership
4th Personality
5th Customer awareness
6th Technical knowledge
7th Education
8th Presentation and appearance
9th Previous employment
10th Family background
It made the following key points:
- Low-hour pilots will have to complete a jet introduction course.
- Airlines commonly require university entrance level education.
- Most likely age range for being offered a job is 20-30 years old.
- Some airlines express concern that many new pilots lack knowledge of commercial operations and the realities of the airline career.
Ref: PilotWeb
Last edited by BHenderson; 19th May 2010 at 01:08.
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Airlines commonly require university entrance level education
I don't think this is unique to graduates. Anyone with little experience will struggle to find a well paid job to start - especially in a recession.
. What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree. Most jobs do not require a degree and therefore graduates and school leavers will both be applying for the same jobs.
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Yes that is what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, often happens when I ramble 
. What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree. Most jobs do not require a degree and therefore graduates and school leavers will both be applying for the same jobs.
. What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree. Most jobs do not require a degree and therefore graduates and school leavers will both be applying for the same jobs.
Student's are struggling because there are just far too many of them with little experience of the industries they are entering, decent Universities prepare you well for the industry you are entering.
A lot of my friends are Aero Engineering graduates who have all ended up with pretty snazzy jobs earning them on average about 30k, which is an excellent wage when you're 21-30.
I was working with a huge Spanish company while at University earning the same money as my full time friends. I ended up working in China during my 3rd year to attract top Chinese students to the UK (which was superb, Chinese girls love the Brits by the way!)
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None of my comments are aimed at you lander66, they are just musings for everyone to think about.
My question is: Can you get a meaningful, well-paid job, where you gain the skills that the GAPAN survey highlights, without a university education, and before you're middle-aged?
I also don't think the target of 50% of school leavers going to university has been dropped. A degree is fast becoming the required level of education.
My question is: Can you get a meaningful, well-paid job, where you gain the skills that the GAPAN survey highlights, without a university education, and before you're middle-aged?
I also don't think the target of 50% of school leavers going to university has been dropped. A degree is fast becoming the required level of education.
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I think that having a University education will improve your chances greatly over someone who does not hold a degree. This is just my opinion as my human nature is that if I had 2 candidates, the degree holder always wins!!
It is only those who are less than middle-aged and dont have degrees that bang on about them not being important. a degree is the norm now, as were A-levels in the generation before that and then GCSE equivilants in the generation before that!! Just the way it goes!
It would be interesting to see what % of those starting training do hold degrees...i believe the majority going Integrated do!
I would say yes, Most Engineering Graduate schemes give you opportunities in each field...obviously except Aircraft handling! My Job certainly does!! Even aircraft handling from the theoretical side of things :P
Yes there is...there is plenty. Plentiful jobs for those with Degrees of more classical disciplines. Its the ones with the mickey-mouse BA's from no-name University who end up in the Chip-shop/ASDA down the road...a degree is not simply a degree....there is so much range in the values of degrees in different subjects and from different universities. Generally, any degree that has entrance requirements of minimum 300 UCAS points are worth the paper they are written on.as the points requirement represent the quality of University and Quality/difficulty of degree. Sorry if your didnt, and there ARE exceptions to this rule, but generally speaking!! sorry if this offends anyone... 
It is only those who are less than middle-aged and dont have degrees that bang on about them not being important. a degree is the norm now, as were A-levels in the generation before that and then GCSE equivilants in the generation before that!! Just the way it goes!
It would be interesting to see what % of those starting training do hold degrees...i believe the majority going Integrated do!
My question is: Can you get a meaningful, well-paid job, where you gain the skills that the GAPAN survey highlights, without a university education, and before you're middle-aged?
What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree.
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When looking back at my schoolyears from elementary up to upper secondary, I can say that I find it very easy to understand and get good grades in social subjects and languages. Therefore I believe I would do best in a social degree like economics, business and so on. But after researching a bit I believe that an aeronautical engineering degree would be something usefull if I loose my medical. I believe it would be interesting and I have no problems with motivation or discipline. The only thing is that I am not very good at maths and physics. No problems passing and I know that I can do well in the ATPL. I just have to put in more effort.
But can I study and do well in an aeronautical engineering programe if I donīt have that natural connection to those subjects. Can one make it with motivation, discipline and by studying your ass off?
But can I study and do well in an aeronautical engineering programe if I donīt have that natural connection to those subjects. Can one make it with motivation, discipline and by studying your ass off?
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I personally wouldn't say taking Uncertainty at University would count as a good degree...
Sorry couldn't resist.
Sorry couldn't resist.
My advice is get a degree in a subject you enjoy that is not too esoteric, that either interests you or has some relevance to the direction you want to take. Your priorities will change, even if your love of aviation doesn't.
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If you're not any good at maths or physics, then trying to do an engineering degree would not be wise. Don't let yourself be defined by aviation. It should only form part of your life and not be your life.
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Thought I would update this diary style.
Here we go:
University wise - I finished my National Diploma in Engineering after requesting back a lot of year 1 work (2 year course) to redo to bump up my grades.
I busted my ass off and pulled some strings and got the grades needed to meet my conditional offer for Queens to do Mechanical Engineering, Happy as larry!
Flying wise - About a month ago I did my first official PPL lesson in a Cessna 172SP-G1000 up at the Ulster Flying Club, Newtonards.
Wow, what a day. Took my ma and m8 up in the back.
My instructor is cool.. He sat me down and asked me what I had done before aviation wise:
I told him I did about 30 minutes in a grob tutor, but honestly everything I know has come from FSX.
He whipped out a small wooden RC sized plane with working control surfaces
"Whats that" he pointed, I said Ailerons etc. He was happy enough and he knew that I knew the very basics at least.
So he turned round and said:
"Ok adam, I dont want to sit here and talk to you about whats going to happen, Id rather we get you in the aircraft and do it and go from there..."
Direct style I thought:
He then said "You're going to take off"
I laughed, My m8 (who needed convinced that flying was safe before hand looked ill).
So basically he talked me through the take off.
"Ease the throttle to full...Ok know at about 55 knots we get V1(cant remember) pull back on the controls".
Not a huge deal in hindsight but that's the kind of instructor he is, He throws you out of your comfort zone and tests you and see's how you react.
After talking with some of the staff and some other student pilots afterwards, they recommended That I take my lessons in the 152 as it was more back-to-basics and properly bare bones instead of the whole garmin GPS thing. and great to learn in, also way cheaper.
Last saturday I did just that, Myself and my instructor showed me a how to do a walk around and check for fuel, oil, all that jazz.
"Alright adam, Time to get in, hop into the left hand side there.."
I clambered into what I consider to be a cereal box. I'm not a big guy by any means but width wise me and the instructor were Siamese twins by the shoulders.
I'm not complaining, I love it. I was anxious at first because of how old it looked and how worn some of the interior was-
Chunks out of landing struts, cracked door panels, Control stick held together with cables ties, but it's still work horse of a plane as soon as we were up!
It was lesson #2 and we did straight and level. It wasn't easy I have to admit because of the turbulence and gusts but overall it went Ok.
Next comes the curve ball again from Mr. Brown.
"Ok Adam, were going to do an overhead join, which is the easiest and safest way to join traffic."
He then told me to fly a small circuit around the airport and get down to about 1,000 ft etc.
At that point I thought ok im going to fly around descending to 1,000 then he will "Have control", land it then I can go get a chicken fillet burger.
That was not the case.
Coming up to 1,000ft, he talks to the tower, "cleared to land"
he then says "OK Adam, bring back throttle and reduce airpspeed to about 65 knots for approach."
Me - "okie dokie.."
Im thinking , any minute now Il have to say "you have control"
We get to 65 knots and were at about 1000 feet coming into the last turn of the circuit for final approach.
"Ok adam, add 1 stage of flaps"
"Erm...Ok.." I said nervously.
He then tells me, "You're going to land."
"I turn my head sharply at him with a sorta "whatchoo talkin bout" glare"
He laughs.
"Dont worry, il talk you through it, add second stage of flaps, now final stage.."
We approach runway 04, which gets closer and closer, with my hands on the controls and his on his lap, I got nervous but adamant.
"OK maintain that attitude and let the plane come down"
We were about 50 feet off the ground at which point it got hazy and I can't fully recall what happens
All I can remember is the plane flares and he tells me to reduce throttle all the way.
I just pulled it straight out fast! BUMP!
The plane just dropped onto the runway, nothing serious, but I was startled:
my instructor seems fine
"Sorry..." I said.
he laughs- "For what?"
"I didn't think it would drop. I thought it would just glide like in FSX" I exclaimed.
he laughs again. - "Yes that was probably my fault, I meant to tell you to reduce throttle slowly, but you did good, not bad for your first landing, your over head join was spot on, you done it before?"
"Nah.." I replied. I felt warm and fuzzy inside, slightly disappointed with the bump, but overall pleased.
He explained to me that, throttle changes on landing will be more apparent because of the flaps getting most of the lift from the prop etc. Lesson learn't.
I'm very happy so far with my PPL training, I love the club and the environment.
I can book my lessons with any instructor but I've decided to stick to with the same guy throughout my PPL journey.
That's 2 hours now in my big black Jeppeson Pilot log book.
The novelty of filling it in ever so carefully hasn't worn off yet.
Writing in "EGAD" takes me a good 6 seconds of careful precise writing- Let's hope it stays that way for a long time.
Here we go:
University wise - I finished my National Diploma in Engineering after requesting back a lot of year 1 work (2 year course) to redo to bump up my grades.
I busted my ass off and pulled some strings and got the grades needed to meet my conditional offer for Queens to do Mechanical Engineering, Happy as larry!
Flying wise - About a month ago I did my first official PPL lesson in a Cessna 172SP-G1000 up at the Ulster Flying Club, Newtonards.
Wow, what a day. Took my ma and m8 up in the back.
My instructor is cool.. He sat me down and asked me what I had done before aviation wise:
I told him I did about 30 minutes in a grob tutor, but honestly everything I know has come from FSX.
He whipped out a small wooden RC sized plane with working control surfaces
"Whats that" he pointed, I said Ailerons etc. He was happy enough and he knew that I knew the very basics at least.
So he turned round and said:
"Ok adam, I dont want to sit here and talk to you about whats going to happen, Id rather we get you in the aircraft and do it and go from there..."
Direct style I thought:
He then said "You're going to take off"
I laughed, My m8 (who needed convinced that flying was safe before hand looked ill).
So basically he talked me through the take off.
"Ease the throttle to full...Ok know at about 55 knots we get V1(cant remember) pull back on the controls".
Not a huge deal in hindsight but that's the kind of instructor he is, He throws you out of your comfort zone and tests you and see's how you react.
After talking with some of the staff and some other student pilots afterwards, they recommended That I take my lessons in the 152 as it was more back-to-basics and properly bare bones instead of the whole garmin GPS thing. and great to learn in, also way cheaper.
Last saturday I did just that, Myself and my instructor showed me a how to do a walk around and check for fuel, oil, all that jazz.
"Alright adam, Time to get in, hop into the left hand side there.."
I clambered into what I consider to be a cereal box. I'm not a big guy by any means but width wise me and the instructor were Siamese twins by the shoulders.
I'm not complaining, I love it. I was anxious at first because of how old it looked and how worn some of the interior was-
Chunks out of landing struts, cracked door panels, Control stick held together with cables ties, but it's still work horse of a plane as soon as we were up!
It was lesson #2 and we did straight and level. It wasn't easy I have to admit because of the turbulence and gusts but overall it went Ok.
Next comes the curve ball again from Mr. Brown.
"Ok Adam, were going to do an overhead join, which is the easiest and safest way to join traffic."
He then told me to fly a small circuit around the airport and get down to about 1,000 ft etc.
At that point I thought ok im going to fly around descending to 1,000 then he will "Have control", land it then I can go get a chicken fillet burger.
That was not the case.
Coming up to 1,000ft, he talks to the tower, "cleared to land"
he then says "OK Adam, bring back throttle and reduce airpspeed to about 65 knots for approach."
Me - "okie dokie.."
Im thinking , any minute now Il have to say "you have control"
We get to 65 knots and were at about 1000 feet coming into the last turn of the circuit for final approach.
"Ok adam, add 1 stage of flaps"
"Erm...Ok.." I said nervously.
He then tells me, "You're going to land."
"I turn my head sharply at him with a sorta "whatchoo talkin bout" glare"
He laughs.
"Dont worry, il talk you through it, add second stage of flaps, now final stage.."
We approach runway 04, which gets closer and closer, with my hands on the controls and his on his lap, I got nervous but adamant.
"OK maintain that attitude and let the plane come down"
We were about 50 feet off the ground at which point it got hazy and I can't fully recall what happens
All I can remember is the plane flares and he tells me to reduce throttle all the way.
I just pulled it straight out fast! BUMP!
The plane just dropped onto the runway, nothing serious, but I was startled:
my instructor seems fine
"Sorry..." I said.
he laughs- "For what?"
"I didn't think it would drop. I thought it would just glide like in FSX" I exclaimed.
he laughs again. - "Yes that was probably my fault, I meant to tell you to reduce throttle slowly, but you did good, not bad for your first landing, your over head join was spot on, you done it before?"
"Nah.." I replied. I felt warm and fuzzy inside, slightly disappointed with the bump, but overall pleased.
He explained to me that, throttle changes on landing will be more apparent because of the flaps getting most of the lift from the prop etc. Lesson learn't.
I'm very happy so far with my PPL training, I love the club and the environment.
I can book my lessons with any instructor but I've decided to stick to with the same guy throughout my PPL journey.
That's 2 hours now in my big black Jeppeson Pilot log book.
The novelty of filling it in ever so carefully hasn't worn off yet.
Writing in "EGAD" takes me a good 6 seconds of careful precise writing- Let's hope it stays that way for a long time.
Last edited by adam02; 23rd Jun 2010 at 11:59.
Originally Posted by Nine Inch Wheels
and use the same pen for all entries
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Adam02,
Just been reading your thread. You're going in the right direction...
It seems to me that a lot of people fail to realise that if you have a VALID qualification which is RELEVANT to your final career goal that you aren't doing anything wrong. My advice is to use the 'cheap' money that you have access to as a Student to get your PPL and hour build. Enjoy the flying and use the degree to attain a 'decent' job, ideally something relevant that will assist you in getting towards the Flight Deck.
Back in 2006 when I graduated in Mechanical Engineering I had two job offers within twelve months. Police Officer or Aeronautical Engineer. Both had comparable salaries, one was local and the other entailed a lengthy commute. Much as I wanted to crack skulls and eat doughnuts I had to decline my offer of a post in the local Constabulary as it was entirely irrelevant to my final goal. I took the engineering job and have made many useful contacts and friends off the back of that decision. My company even has it's own airline and flying club...
My current role has me laising with the Test Pilots of a large aircraft on a daily basis and being directly involved in the production of the Aeroplane Flight Manual and Operating Data Manual. It's very useful to be dealing with things in your day job that will directly help you in the future. Indeed, a lot of the ATPL content that I've covered so far, I had a greater understanding than that required because of my job.
In essence... You're doing the right thing and as a result will have a surer footing and healthier CV than some rich 19 year old with a fat wallet.
It's working for me!
Just been reading your thread. You're going in the right direction...
It seems to me that a lot of people fail to realise that if you have a VALID qualification which is RELEVANT to your final career goal that you aren't doing anything wrong. My advice is to use the 'cheap' money that you have access to as a Student to get your PPL and hour build. Enjoy the flying and use the degree to attain a 'decent' job, ideally something relevant that will assist you in getting towards the Flight Deck.
Back in 2006 when I graduated in Mechanical Engineering I had two job offers within twelve months. Police Officer or Aeronautical Engineer. Both had comparable salaries, one was local and the other entailed a lengthy commute. Much as I wanted to crack skulls and eat doughnuts I had to decline my offer of a post in the local Constabulary as it was entirely irrelevant to my final goal. I took the engineering job and have made many useful contacts and friends off the back of that decision. My company even has it's own airline and flying club...
My current role has me laising with the Test Pilots of a large aircraft on a daily basis and being directly involved in the production of the Aeroplane Flight Manual and Operating Data Manual. It's very useful to be dealing with things in your day job that will directly help you in the future. Indeed, a lot of the ATPL content that I've covered so far, I had a greater understanding than that required because of my job.
In essence... You're doing the right thing and as a result will have a surer footing and healthier CV than some rich 19 year old with a fat wallet.
It's working for me!
