potkettleblack

What respectable airline wants you with your 500 hours from eaglejet or any of the shower of sh*te production line training companies?

- BA - nope, experienced only should apply
- Aer Lingus - nope, either experienced or largely integrated only. You might be lucky if you are modular but you had better be a cut above the rest
- Midland - nope. Happy to train but not employ
- Easy - nope (CTC only please)
- Ryanair - nope, integrated low houred willing to self sponsor or high houred with lots of P1 time for a few LHS jobs only
- Charters - CTC would be a good start or perhaps a TP background at a push if your face fits

Go off and waste your money on 500 hours but expect to be flying for lord knows who in god knows where and hold on for the ride. Don't expect the above airlines to be interested when you have a few thousand hours and want to come back to Western Europe either.

Axe2Grind

Thanks for your input potkettleblack – your posts have been as positive as ever.
Do you linger around this forum because you want to extract vulnerabilities that'll make you feel more grateful in your current position? (Assuming you're cpt for a legacy (or such) with multi-thousand hours?)

Best.
Wannabe Zombie Army member ...please sir, can I fly some more.

clanger32

Axe2grind.
I don't know how long you've been on or around these forums, but there are certain people who are always going to be down, certain posters who will always just tell it "as it is" and certain that are always upbeat.

PKB has his (?) moments, but generally is in the middle group.
What he has said below is - probably - correct. Bealzebub is also - probably - correct. What they are both in essence saying is in response to the constant stream of "IcouldpayformytrainingmodularANDgetaTRandabillionhoursontyp e" brigade.

I'm ex-integrated. Modular is a VERY good choice, partic whilst uncertainty remains around hiring. However, DO be aware of what Bealzebub is saying. It depends on what you want - what PKB is telling you is yes, you could get the same qualification for less money and go and buy hours on type from line training companies BUT THESE HOURS ARE WORTH APPROX ALL. So many people - SO many - jump for the "it's a billion pounds cheaper than integrated" selling point of mod, only to find that actually, £50k for no job is still actually very painful. And using the money they saved, they've bought hours on type - which are STILL worth naff all.
I'm NOT saying Integrated will get you a job where mod won't. I do think it's slightly more likely to (but then, I would...) - the question for each person is how much is that perceived increase in opportunity worth.

Just as anyone who says "going integrated is the only way into XYZ airline" or "going integrated gives you a MUCH better chance of success" should be treated as somewhat dillusional, anyone that tells you "modular costs 28p and you can buy a concorde rating with a squillion hours for the cost of an integrated course and you'll be in a MUCH better position than those spoon fed Daddys' boys" should also be treated as bordering on insane. That is ALL I believe PKB was trying to say.

KieranBal

I can't help but be massively confused on these forums. One the one hand, you have a load of people saying that I would be foolish choosing to waste thousands on an integrated course which gets me nowhere and lands me in exactly the same situation as a modular. On the other hand, such as this thread, there are a number of people saying that going modular and spending the money you've saved on hours and a TR gives you sod all and that the TR and hours are all useless.
To quote clanger32 "you could get the same qualification for less money and go and buy hours on type from line training companies BUT THESE HOURS ARE WORTH APPROX ALL"

All I'm saying is that it seems to me, it's all down to when you get your licences/hours/TR, not where you got it from or how you got it? I have looked at both modular and integrated and both have their upsides and downsides.

From what I've read, and correct me if I'm wrong, if there are jobs going then the integrated people tend to get a slightly better chance than modular.
Financially, however, modular means you are able to stay in a job through your training and only spend £50,000 as a pose to £100,000.

I originally came to these forums looking to clarify questions such as modular vs integrated but I always end up walking away with the fog twice as thick as it was when I arrived.

clanger32

Kieran,
Apologies for any part I have played in confusing you further. To be honest though, you seem to have it pretty well worked out on your own.
I was integrated. Bear that in mind as you read this.

The problem is with Mod Vs Integrated, that everyone does (or perhaps that should be "should do") their own research. For those such as me who chose integrated, it's very difficult to accept that perhaps we've spent a lot more money for no apparent increase in chances. Likewise, those who chose Modular don't want to admit that they've spent £50k and got nothing; whereas "if they'd only gone integrated...."

Therefore all the claims get blown up into ridiculous statements on both sides. The modular people will always tell you that you can do a full modular course for 28p-and-a-pack-of-peanuts-which-is-so-much-cheaper-than-integrated-which-costs-at-least-a-kazillion-pounds.

The integrated mob will tell you that "modular-is-for-no-hopers-who-can't-get-on-an-integrated-course-and-will-never-ever-be-able-to-fly-for-xyz airlines-because-they-only-take-integrated".

The truth is more likely that Modular will cost around £10-15k cheaper than an integrated course (not the £30-50k cheaper some will have you believe). The truth is more likely that an integrated course may give you a slight edge in a buoyant market.

The truth is, as you say yourself it's more about WHEN you finish than HOW you finish.

The point about "using the saving of going modular to get a TR and hours on type with a line training provider" hours is that there [appears to be] a backlash from a lot of the respectable airlines that means they would -at best- consider you to be no more qualified with your TR and hours than a fATPL. This is partly due to perceived quality of training and SOPs you've been ingrained into and partly due to the detrimental effect on the industry overall. The likes of Ryanair and easyJet won't touch you either, as you'll be too experienced to be a cadet and not experienced enough for a direct LHS entry - if any exist. So choose carefully...

Overall *I* would suggest you should budget for no change at all from £50k for modular. That's BUDGET for the hard of reading, not "spend". You should budget the thick end of £65k for Integrated. Anything else is chaff in the wind. You will have to live, regardless of how you train.

Overall, you're doing the right thing. Do your own research and make your own choice. Neither is wrong, neither is right. Fwiw, if I were going to start training all over again, I think I'd probably choose modular right now.

Wee Weasley Welshman

Those numbers are about right. I think £50k for a Modular course and £70k for Integrated are commonly achieved. What is often a bigger factor is that people manage to do a Modular course whilst using holiday and a bit of unpaid leave and thus keep earning or keep a position of employment. For someone taking home £20,000 a year that makes a big difference.

If you can't get into the CTC or OAA 'programs' then you'd better budget on paying for a type rating on top of the basic license. There are jobs around where the employer still pays the type rating. But they are rocking horse manure.

So unless you've got about £70k to bring to the party don't bother getting dressed up.


Sadly.


WWW

stuckgear

Kieran, et al.

I agree with the above points made; Another way to look at it is RISK.

Neither path guarantees a job offer or potential employment and both will live you limited to other potential employment.

If you choose integrated with FTO 'A' that has links to provide prsopective candidates to certain partner airlines, then if those partner airlines shift their tie ins to another FTO, have a recruitment freeze, change policy, go out of business etc, then the potential of getting a job with airlines that have links with FTO 'B' is going to be difficult. very.

And the same in reverse.

If you choose modular, then you're in the position of finding it tough to get a look in with the airlines that look to recruit low time cadets from the FTO's they have links with.

Quite frankly, the recruitment of pilots in the UK/Europe is a mess and which ever way you consider, it is RISK.

Pelikanpete

£65K for an integrated course seems like a very, very low estimate. A quick look at OAA prices showes £75K for the basic course and exam fees. Once you include the extra costs - food, accommodation, travel and also medicals, the OAA skills assessment etc. and you will have little change left over from £90K. Lets not forget that the majority of integrated OAA students who are lucky enough to get a job with an airline still go to Ryan Air meaning they will have to pay for a type rating, just like the modular students do.

The prices and need to pay for a type rating are similar for all the other integrated schools, some are in fact much higher. Also integrated schools would have to work very hard to convince airlines to take integrated students and give them a free type rating when that airline could instead take a modular student who is willing to pay for a TR. Ultimately the airlines are interested in reducing their costs rather than having the very best first officers - otherwise they would just ignore cadets and pay more to employ more experienced pilots who already hold type ratings.

A £50K budget for modular training is reasonable if you are including living expenses and exam fees etc. Meaning a total of about £80K for modular with a type rating and £120K integrated with a type rating. Whether you work whilst doing modular training part time or just do full time modular training, the difference is still huge.

If you're funding the training with borrowed money, the extra interest alone would make a very significant difference. Paying back £120K plus interest over the years would probably total more than £200K and have a significant impact on life, mortgages, children etc.

For the lucky ones who get a job, flying is one of the better jobs out there but I would be inclined to say its definitely not worth doing integrated training and actually not really worth doing modular either because the career offers little job security and rapidly deteriorating pay and conditions. Worst case scenario might be £90K or even £120K debt and no flying job ever - a nightmare that has and is coming true for many. The more people who ignore the warnings, the worse it is for those already qualified but unable to find work.

There will never be a shortage of inexperienced pilots - only a shortage of experienced ones willing to work for peanuts. Anyone who tells you otherwise should be regarded with suspicion.

clanger32

PP,
a lot I agree with (last paragraph and warnings of understanding the total overall cost regardless of route) and a lot I disagree with in your post, which serves to illustrate the point I'm making.

Certainly I hadn't realised that OAA was now as high as £75k. ouch. But then, you've picked the FTO that's traditionally [one of] the most expensive and then try and justify the [cheapest?] modular route against it. Also, to get your £90k you've provided £15k to live for 15 months? really?

As an example, I don't know the full price of FTE Jerez, or Cabair (cos they make you register to find the price now - and I can't be bothered!) but according to THIS post from early 2009, Cabairs integrated offering could be done for as little £53500. Prices certainly won't have gone down since then, but I seriously doubt it's gone up by £20k either.

Conversely, after your post I did a little quick and dirty maths on three of the best known Modular providers in this country and (accepting it's quick and dirty, all done in this country etc etc) couldn't get it lower than £51500 (ish) - two of the three came in around £54k all in. It's also very noticable when you start really looking at modular, that very few orgs are prepared to put a cost out there in the same way as the integrated mob. I will caveat right up front here that I may have accidentally double counted some costs. BUT - equally, neither have I factored an MCC or JOC into these costs.

The truth is, you can't really compare the two - they are different beasts, but certainly the motto should be "do your own research"!

Wee Weasley Welshman

My £70k estimate for Integrated is based on CABAIR. Oxford and Jerez (depends on Euro/Sterling a bit) are more and CTC slightly more again.

When times were booming it paid to go Integrated. Fast, get in before the music stops, airlines getting recruitment planning wrong and pick up the phone to the large FTO's. It all made sense.

When times are awful it pays to go Modular. Slow, pace your spending to the job market, keep your debt low and be able to service it for longer until airlines get their recruitment numbers wrong again. I all makes sense.


Unfortunately where we've ended up is an expenditure arms race where a seemingly endless supply of Zombie Wannabes, some might call them an Army, seem willing and able to spend, 80, 90, 120 thousand pounds on flying training. This leaves most unable to compete and makes the job of First Officer a profit stream for airlines.


Keeping your debt low allows you to stay in the game longer and that is far more important than where you trained and how the syllabus was structured.


WWW

UAV689

Hear hear WWW, again wise words.

I have saved for the last 3 years for my cpl/ir/mcc, by working 2 jobs 7 days a week, along side studying every night whilst distance learning. I will be going to a 3 day week in may whilst flying 4 days a week.

The beauty of modular is it allows you to build your second career. I am now in a position where I will be earning more in my backup career than I am in my dream career. When I go down to a 3 day working week I will be earning more than I did when I first started my distance learning! The back up career gives me flexibility in the future, oil won't be around forever, and recessions will be back. I know I won't be on the dole for long if I get laid off at some point in my future aircrew career, or if I lose my class one, what is your back up plan? Especially if you have to service 100k of debt on top of a mortgage, wife and kids etc.

At the end of this 3 years of saving I will have enough for a fully funded license debt free. I will take a loan if needed for a TR but I can handle that if the end t+c are decent with a confirmed job. I will not risk my future for a pipe dream, play it safe people!

In fact with money in the bank from your savings doors will open for other opportunities. I have made an investment that if comes off I will walk away with enough profit for a FI ticket, and a house deposit, all after doing my training.

Don't get loaned up, work for it. It will all the sweeter when you get there.

magicmick

Much good information above, just to add my 2p, there’s a lot of speculation about the cost of mod vs integrated, bear in mind the prices quoted apply only if you finish everything on minimum hours with first time passes in everything. Not everyone manages that (I certainly didn’t) when you consider that OAA charge around £500 per hour for a twin plus instructor and a CAA skills test cost about £800 for a full skills test and about £500 for a partial (I not certain of the exact figures) plus rental of the aircraft for the test, a fail, partial and/ or extra tuition can easily push the costs very high. Sensible advice would be to allow a contingency (maybe 15%) on top of the basic cost to cater for this eventuality.

I definitely echo the sentiment of finding employment and saving up a fund before starting training and remaining employed for as long as possible throughout training there are some modular schools that will support students that want to train for CPL/ MEIR part time. Even doing this you will find money leaving the account quicker that it’s going in but at least you will have something going in and you will have Plan B if you don't find employment immediately after finishing training.

On the subject of living costs during training, there are many more modular training schools in the country than integrated so its more likely that there will be a modular school within commuting distance of where you live so you will be able to live at home while training with the same living expenses that you would have even if you weren’t training.

It will be interesting to see how aircraft like the Tecnam twin impacts on training costs, it’s reputed to be much cheaper to run than Seneca, Duchess or DA42 and some training schools (Airways and Aeros) seem to be taking it on. It will be interesting to see whether the reduced running costs will be passed onto the customer, whether maintenance costs are less than the competitors and whether the aircraft is robust enough to cope with the abuse and high usage rate that students will impose on it.

As mentioned earlier whether you went integrated or modular, first time passes etc etc are all very nice but timing is by far the biggest factor in finding employment.

Pelikanpete

Clanger32, Oxford is significantly cheaper than FTE and cheaper than CTC. I've not included £15K just for living - check the OAA website - it's for all the test fees and other expenses that are not included in the OAA quote and also travel to Arizona in addition to the normal living expenses. Also it is quite easy to get the modular done for less than £50K (especially with hour building in the US). Including all expenses I actually spent less that £40K. I'm very sceptical about the Cabair prices and don't think they have the connections with airlines to be worth anymore than modular - also you just get the hassle of being tied into a course that is of mixed quality when with modular you have the ability to choose your favoured ground school provider, hour building and then CPL/IR provider and dictate your own pace.

clanger32

PP,
It's not worth fighting over - I think we're both saying the same thing (although WWW actually said it more concisely than either of us) - integrated is good when times is good, modular a better bet when times is bad.

However, and just cos I is a pedant, the Oxford course is 69500, the regulatory fees 5500. All travel to/from (and accomodation in) the US is included in that price. Yer 75k (still "OUCH!" btw) gets you from 0-fATPL in min hours - if you can do it = of course, with OAA, if you do need extra training, or worse - partial/fail a flight test, the cost can rack up REALLY quickly.

FTE is only more expensive only because of current Fx rates - if the Euroid swings back the other way [however unlikely that may be] then it could well get a lot cheaper than OAA. The point I was trying to illustrate is that OAA are never far from the top of the most expensive way to an fATPL - so to compare the self styled "best", to be fair you should surely be comparing with the "best" modular schools - that means NOT just selecting the cheapest mod courses, in the cheapest aircraft, in the cheapest possible place to do it and so on....or else the comparison is distorted to the point of being worthless - for example, I'm sure I could make a modular course that was MORE expensive than the Cabair integrated if I tried hard enough - it would be AS valid an argument, but everyone would instantly say it was rollox....and rightly so!


However, the overall point is that it's not a comparison that can easily be made. As noted previously, right now, even as ex-integrated, I'd recommend modular as the way forward. There is undeniably *A* saving to be had by going modular - I just sincerely doubt that it's the £10quinzillion pounds that it's often stated as,

Cherrytaz

Some excellent information here, really relevant to the current economic climate. I, like a lot of young people here was fully intent on going straight into an integrated course straight out of school (aged 17). However I was advised on all fronts (including here) to get a college degree first as it would allow me a "backup" plan if all failed with the flying. I am now just turned 23 and have a degree and masters under my belt and have secured a job, starting in September. Thankfully I am now in a position to do my ppl straight off as I have built up savings over the years. When I start working I will be in a position to save on a weekly basis and hopefully within a year or two be able to continue my flight training.

The integrated route would have been disastrous for me. It would have put my parents under significant financial pressure (something that none of us want to do) and the result more than likely would have been a fully qualified atpl pilot with no job and 100,000 Euro in debt. I am now in a position to comfortably complete my ppl and keep saving toward further training.

One thing however is that I am 23 and not getting any younger so I really want to get my skates on and get going.

The advice here on pprune really is invaluable with regards to integrated/modular and would urge any budding 18 year old's to consider the information provided seriously. Bit of a rant but just my 2 cent's.

Desert Strip Basher

To understand the financial difference between modular and integrated look at it this way. Say integrated takes 18 months - cost £85k (including living costs). Modular I'd say is reasonable to complete in 2 yrs around the demands of a professional job. Lets say you can save £700/month over the period and all living costs are already accounted for. Cost of modular training (~£40k) less savings (24x700=£16800) is £23200! You will be £62k better off than an integrated bod, plus you'll have a well paid job during the search for an aircrew position while the integrated bods start stacking shelves. Beyond that the integrated bod probably has to add interest payments assuming a loan is taken out and then because of their rushing and further fanning the flames by paying for Type Ratings etc they've effectively dug their own grave. Final point is the modular aspirant also has a fallback career in case of illness/loss of license. Integrated training at present has to be blind stupidity. If people stopped trying to fast track their way into an airliner (thinking they'll be happy doing that for 40 odd years?!), and played the long game by starting off flying because they love it rather than because they want to get in a 737 asap then some sense might return to the industry. Rant over.

clanger32

Jesus wept.
I can't disagree with the concept that going integrated right now isn't what I'd choose to do, but the financial picture drawn up by DSB is utter, utter, utter horse *ahem*.

It's SO flawed I'm not even going to bother to highlight - if anyone goes modular on the strength of that argument, you need your head read significantly more than if you went integrated.

Desert Strip Basher

Flaw it then. I'd agree that the money saved could be spent on other things and the true cost of modular at ~£40k doesn't change, but then if you want to be a pilot what's of more value to you? If savings are coming in, you can't argue with the final financial situation presented - going modular while holding down a reasonably well paid job will leave you ~£60k better off than your integrated friend (assuming he/she doesn't take out a loan to finance their ego driven 'have it now' charge to oblivion), with a well paid job while you're looking for employment and with a fallback career. If you dispute my thread then I'd have to disagree with you again - if I'm wrong then now is as good a time as any to go integrated. But I know I'm right - self funded integrated and all the rot it's promoted in this industry has a lot of heartache to answer for. Either way - go on then, prove yourself.....................

clanger32

Really? HONESTLY?
you don't see the glaring holes in your argument?
ok - I'll take 5 mins to highlight some of the monster holes:
It doesn't. It takes 15 months. Alright, benefit of doubt, you're using round numbers for ease of calculation. £10k living cost is prob about right for an integrated course.
- errr? What? So YOU don't have that £10k cost if you go modular? Your rent/mortgage and food costs are paid by someone else? No - what you mean is, "I already pay for those out of my salary, regardless of whether I'm training to be a pilot or not" - NOT that they don't apply. So - notwithstanding any following arguments - you have to add £15k of cost to your modular bill - cos you've got two years of living to fund out of your salary. To add the living costs to an integrated course, but NOT to a modular course, is only valid for those students who have to fund *TWO* sets of living. Otherwise, that cost is incurred whether you live in Oxford, Jerez, or Barnsley, whether you're a full time student or part time. To be clear - put it in a spreadsheet. What you're actually saying is "the cost of modular is £40k (*cough* *Cough*), +£15k of two years living expense, which is offset by two years of salary, whereas Integrated is £75k [if you take the most expensive option] + £10k living cost which is not offset at all".
PLEASE tell me you're joking? Or do you mean "only the professional aspects of the training" - i.e. not including the lengthy PPL and hour building sections? If the latter, then you're again not comparing apples with apples. Include another £7k ish for a PPL and at least 6 months for the PPL + hours building.

If not, you honestly reckon that if doing it full time takes 18 months [which, as noted earlier, it doesn't] - that's 18 months of 9-5 every single day - you only need 6 months longer to do it, when only flying at weekends and evenings in the summer? Not including the fatigue of your day job causing you to "not want to go today", or missing flights because you don't have time to wait for wx to clear? Or the requirement to work late/weekends occassionally, or the inconvenience of having to fit your partner/friends in around it. Or allowing for more than min time, because you're NOT building your skills flying every day so it may take a bit longer to master asym approaches? You're either taking the p out of your employer - in which case you're unlikely to REMAIN employed for 2 years - or this is monstrously optimistic. I'd suggest the latter. 3/4 years if working full time is probably far more realistic. And actually, having been on PPRuNe for 5 years, I'd say that comes out as the most common and realistic time frame for those going mod whilst full time working.

If you're talking FULL TIME MOD, then yes. Totally agree. I would even go so far as to say you could match or better an integrated course timescales. But that's not what you said. Consider ground school alone is 6 months FULL TIME, without 9 months of full time flying.
- ok, so to "live" (£10k a year, remember) and save £700 a month, you need to earn a minimum of £23k gross. And have NO OTHER COSTS AT ALL. Like travelling to/from work. Like going out. Like running a car or going on holiday or buying clothes (either for home or work), supporting a family or doing ANYTHING fun. £700 a month - alright, probably is achievable, but it's not very realistic for most people. Therefore you're presenting a case that's based around unrealistic scenarios - one that only someone working full time, earning more than £23k a year and with no other costs could meet. Not something that most people could meet.
No. it's not, is it. I'm sure that it CAN be done for that, taking the cheapest option at every corner, but let's be fair - if you're comparing the cheapest (or nearly cheapest) with integrated, let's compare it with the cheapest integrated course.....£53500 with Cabair. Or, let's compare your probably-about-right sum for "integrated courses" of £85k all in, with well recommended suppliers of modular....as noted earlier, on current prices, places such as BCFT, Aeros, SFC etc coming in at around £50-£55k. Not including your £15k of living costs. Even the original poster comes in at just a touch shy of £50k. So, to support your argument, you've shaved 20% off the cost that even WWW reckons is about reasonable and then compared it with [one of] the most expensive courses out there. hmmm.

You then start on about how integrated students [who don't get a job quickly - and let's also be clear here, they go integrated for the perceived BETTER chance of a job] will only be shelf fillers. And how they'll have to pay all that nasty interest.
What about those who have VERY good fallback careers - like me, currently earning more than all bar legacy captains. or the Oxford University Graduate who is a fund manager that I trained with, or the police seargeant who has gone back to the force? Or those who paid the whole costs with their own cash and no debt whatsoever?
What about the modular guys who funded every single penny with debt - and believe me, I would say the VAST majority of mod guys I know took at least some debt - most of them took nearly all of it as debt.

This is the major, major, major problem. People ALWAYS compare the most expensive, worst case scenario of integrated against the cheapest, best case scenario for mod. I think in five odd years on PPRuNe I've only ever seen one modular student ACTUALLY try and compare like for like. You sell yourself the concept it's £40-50-60k cheaper, because it helps justify your own choice, but you don't want to admit the more realistic numbers.

You [modular defenders] always conveniently forget that nice metric "time to first job" and the kicker that goes with it - unfreezing your ATPL and the increase in salary/seniority that goes with it. Want to put some figures on that? I'd argue that if it took the integrated student a year to find first job and the modular a year and a half, the increase over your working life in salary/seniority would more than cover the delta. But strangely, that's never considered - because it makes the scales a LITTLE more balanced.

Look - I really don't disagree with the concept that modular is cheaper, or that it's the best route to go for the forseeable future, but if you've qualified then you have a duty of care to those that follow to present accurate, realistic pictures, not to dress up your own choice in spurious argument.s

Desert Strip Basher

Sorry, but nothing you have said changes my opinion. The living costs are covered within the working salary - £700 saving per month is above these, and allows for mortgage, bills, holidays (did you keep your other half on side with holidays during your integrated course?), car etc. I know as I've achieved it. Without anything coming in, food and living costs are taken from your savings, not your salary.

I'll take the bit about 2yrs - it probably is a bit longer though not necessarily. But then hey, that's more savings for the mod guy so take another £6-8k off the final modular situation. Doesn't bother me whether integrated is 12 months or 18 months - the cost is still substantially the same, beans on toast for 6 months doesn't amount to much.

Modular can be done for £35k - £45k - even cheaper if you actually love flying and have done hour building by towing gliders etc. So £40k is average. Typical cost for integrated is £75k (I'm considering FTE, CTC and Oxford - wouldn't include Cabair in this debate).

The increased earnings argument you make doesn't really stack up - as the mod guy still has a good job while on the job hunt. And the final bit - the modular bod can time the final push - luckily it sounds like your friends could go back to their day jobs. Good for them. Was integrated really worthwhile?? You sound a little bitter....................