Jaair

GAPilot261087, looks like a nice breakdown. I would budget around 35k GBP for the type rating though. I know a few people who have had to spend around €40k for it due to accommodation etc.

miguel22

May I know in which airplane you planned the 11K for the time building? Around 165€/hour including accomodation seems a really good price.

Thanks and good luck!

GAPilot261087

I would have to agree. 26k is just for the course. Depending on where you do the TR and time scale, accommodation may be pricey in some places. I have a few friends who did it in CAE Amsterdam say to budget extra. There is more miscellaneous costs involved with insurance, uniform etc but I think if you have successfully gained a job then that is definetly less of a worry.

GAPilot261087

I have planned for the C150. I suppose it comes down to availability in the end though doesn't it. I normally fly PA28s in the UK but that is to go with friends and family. 75hrs on a C150 comes up at €8475 and then when you take into account landing fees and accommodation it does add up especially as its 75 landings if not more at around €15-20! Then there is accommodation and flights to and from Jerez. I think the planning of all the flying training is just important as the training itself.

Good luck to you also my friend!

rudestuff

Good price?! There's no reason to pay more than €100 an hour for hourbuilding.

Jaair

I agree with rudestuff here, if you're willing to go abroad to hour build then the US would be much more economical.

GAPilot261087

I have been very tempted with the alternative cheap USA option and have numerous quotes for the same hours that are indeed cheaper per flying hour however, there is a few things that make me more inclined to do it in Spain.

Spains airspace is pretty simple from what I've checked and has lots of similarities to the UK. It also works with skydemon to make life a bit easier but I suppose you can get forelight for the US..
The USA does also require learning a whole bunch of new procedures both flying and RT. It probably would be manageable to learn but what I have found is once you add up the cost of flights to and from, accommodation, renting a car, spending money for food and fuel (depending on dry or wet lease), it works out very similar to doing it in Spain.

I also must admit that I love going on holiday to Spain so it kinda gives the best of both for me!

r10bbr

i agree but as rudestuff said earlier if you go to the states you can also save money in the long run by doing faa add on's to your current license, where it permits, again it comes down to money and time, i may look at states within the next few months or just go to spain or neighbouring states etc

GAPilot261087

It's certainly a good option if you are really wanting to budget and experience the US. I'd love to do some flying in the US at some point but personally, I would't consider doing more than hour building in the US and some multi engine time at most. I looked at doing the conversions route before and asked various line captains and even a TRI/E about it. I was basically told to stick with doing it in Europe under EASA. Apparently it is easy to tell in the sim if someone has learned IR in the USA due to certain traits. Not really sure what the errors might be but I took their word for it as I trust there opinions.

But then again, this may just be the case with certain trainees. Given that Rudestuff is an airline pilot who has been there and done it, I am sure doing a CBIR and everything works perfectly fine. There is obviously not just one correct way to do things. Personal preference really. I am gonna stick to doing my flying training in Europe if I can !

tourz

Hello everyone,

First I'm sorry if my message is a little bit too personal, but I really need some advice since I'm about to choose my path for getting my EASA ATPL.

I'm a cabin crew working for Emirates (so based in Dubai) and I was planning to start this year a training at Superior Air (in Greece) while continuing to fly as cabin crew so i could pay my training.
Then i looked into Air France who just started again their cadet training and it looked amazing for me however i would need to have the ATPL theory to apply for this job.
So i checked for a school in UK to get my ATPL but realized I needed to get the PPL first before going for ATPL.

So my question is : Should i go for the full package with superior air and take 1,5 / 2 years but without flying experience, and then look for a company like Ryan Air etc ,
or should I do it step by step with first the PPL, then ATPL theory and try my luck with Air France cadets after that ?

-Any other suggestions ?

Sorry again but my mind is going everywhere now and I'm trying to get some opinions outside of my EK colleagues .

Cheers !

GAPilot261087

Tourz,

IMO, you have to really ask yourself what you want in terms of training location, can you keep your job or not and can you afford not to work, price point and chances of success, passing all training and getting a job which is the tricky bit and harder than it sounds. In my case, I am doing the learning all modular. I already hold a PPL and work for Ryanair ground staff whilst doing it all and will be leaving my job to commit to the flying phase once my ATPL exams are out of the way. I posted what my route looks like and some reasoning for it a few posts ago.

For me, The PPL was a really important thing because I was able to gauge if I loved flying as much as I thought I did to justify committing 60k towards it as a career and also to find out if I was mentally suitable to fly safely whilst still enjoying it. I did it intensively over two months on an intensive PPL course at Tayside Aviation in Scotland. I did it this way for the simple reason so that I could test my ability to fly all the time whilst learning and doing the ground exams etc. It went quick and was a challenge some days but it was as close to line flying as I could get without being on an intensive integrated ATPL course and 100k later... I proved to myself I was mentally and physically capable of flying every day and it gave me real confidence. I would really recommend gaining a PPL anyways because it's yours for life and you can really enjoy it like many professional pilots do on weekends and other days. General Aviation flying is so fun!

Keep looking at training options however. Don't put pressure on yourself to make a quick decision because thats how you end up in a bad situation with a lot of money at stake. I also suggest you maybe visit a few more flight schools you like the look of and discuss finance, training plan, success stories and compare them to what you want. I actually went to a pilot careers live event in London that is hosted every year 2 or 3 times but they also do them in different locations where all the big schools and others you maybe haven't found yet will attend and speak to you in person.

If you are Cabin Crew, Speak to some younger first officers within EK who are likely to have been in your shoes not long ago and they can provide some insight. I still to this day speak to pilots through my work and get lots of good advice and recommendations from them. I am also pretty sure emirates has a training school now in the UAE so even look internally within them.

I am doing my ATPLs just now and I can tell you straight up that you will get a shock when you start to see how much work is involved. Not even PPL exams and learning can prepare you for the amount of volume that you must learn. People don't lie when they say it's challenging haha. I however have spaced mine out over a year and do not have to worry about integrated timescales to complete them. Some big airlines want 90% grade average on them from candidates applying for jobs and some airline on the other hand don't bother as long as you passed them all.

Lastly, I wish you good luck in your decision and wish you every success!

tourz

Hello GAPilot261087,

Thanks for all these details that's nice of you !

Actually I think my path will have to look like yours , since I can't afford the training if I stop working, and my job gives me the chance to visit a school in Europe quite often I feel it's the best way.
I also foolow you on the fact that starting with my PPL will also help me because I will get the chance to fly before starting the heavy part that is the ATPL.

"I however have spaced mine out over a year and do not have to worry about integrated timescales to complete them"
I think from the moment you start your first exam you still have to respect a certain timeframe like 18 months for completing everything right ?

And if I follow this way as well (PPL ---> ATPL theory) there wont be any flying with that, isn't it better to be able to fly at the same time ?

Thanks again for your nice reply

GAPilot261087

The 18 month timescale begins at the end of the sitting of the first exam I believe. You can however take as long as you like to learn the material before your first exams as an enrolled modular ATPL student. An integrated school does it over 6 months full time and usually takes 2 sittings which is a lot of knowledge and exams to do in that time period. It does often work but it’s not feasible if like me you want to work and learn.

Well not necessarily, I am still flying whilst learning my ATPL exams. Once you have your PPL, you can start to hour build to the 150h total time requirement and 100 of those hours must be Pilot in Command which is the crucial part. You must have 45 hours total time to do a PPL skills test so that’s nearly 50 hours straight away that also gives you with a licence to go flying when you want and nearly 50 hours off your goal of 150h to start the advanced training. I have a local flying club that I can go do 2 hours flying on a day off from studying/work for example. The great thing about modular training is there is no set way or method for everyone. You can do whatever suits you in terms of how you learn and progress.

By the time I finish the exams, I will probably need to go to somewhere like Spain for 2 weeks to do 50-60 hours flying to get my hours up to requirements to start the ME/IR/CPL training straight away. this is the hour building stage you hear people talking about but like I say, there is nothing to stop you doing it before your exams are complete if you have the licence to do so.

mrcsn

I was enrolled into the CTC Wings program back in 2012 but had to leave as the reality of paying back the hefty loan was just not going to work with the climate at the time. I was very anxious about this, couldn’t focus and landed up failing most of my first batch of ATPLs. I never stayed for the second batch (obviously).

I subsequently landed up in a decent-paying job (thanks to my degree) and have stayed with the business ever since, climbing the ranks and have now been thinking about re-exploring my flying career.

Knowing what I went through with the financial anxiety, I have been thinking and researching about the possibility of going Modular and paying-as-I go (per licence stage). Like this, I would hopefully end the training and be both debt-free and still in employment (even if it lands up being slightly longer to get the fATPL).

I will be 34 this year, currently considering a short-haul career (hopefully A319/20/21).

So my questions are (and please answer any that you can, needn’t be all):

1. Do bigger European airlines still consider pilots who went the modular route?
2. Will airlines still consider me, even if I did 'fail' half of my ATPLs at first attempt all those years ago?
3. Are the theoretical elements possible through distance learning (e.g. ground school)?
4. Is modular the way to go in my situation? Any other route that can be done ‘part-time'?
5. What schools are recommended within easy reach of London (especially for the PPL)? I’m willing to travel up to 2 hours by train - no problem - so long as the school is reputable and my qualifications respected as I continue doing the licences/courses.
6. Any other input is much appreciated

Thanks a lot guys

GAPilot261087

1. Yes. FR for example will consider just about anyone for a license and don't really bother with how you got it. They focus more on the sim assessment I'm told. You will no doubt have to pay for the type rating which is around 30k on top of training but you get jet time, a job and a good salary of about 50k after a few years on the line which is good. EZY sometimes take people on from modular or integrated atpl backgrounds but they have the MPL cadet programme so they are an unlikely bet unless you train with a school such as FTE,OAA or CTC who can recommend you and get you on to a midway programme for an MPL license.

2.Depends. You will never know if you don't try. I would actually recommend emailing an aviation HR rep if you can find someone online and ask the question. There is a business called airline prep which actually run programmes tailored for airline assessments where usually a rep of the airline you are interviewing for will do a mock interview with you. You can always contact them and see if someone will speak to you from an airline you maybe wish to apply for and give you a realistic answer. As I say though, Some airlines don't bother about where you trained and grades etc. Overall, If you have the licence then you can fly and reality is airlines need pilots or they don't make money... and there is a shortage! Once you have the flying time you can apply for wherever you want.. BA, Are Lingus, easy etc

3. Yes. I do modular learning with CAPT Ground school who I would recommend.The notes they provide are very good and the author and head of training is highly recommended and experienced. I also have the Bristol Ground School material and know them to be similar to CAPT in terms of experience they have in terms of teachers and quality of material. BGS may be easier for you in terms of travel for the refresher weeks depending on your location. I stay in Scotland where CAPT run revision weeks and I have a CAA exam centre 5 mins from my house so thats a good portion of the reason why I choose my ground school provider. Any approved modular ground school will provide you with all the material and you learn at home. The courses are set in modules and you will receive refresher weeks before the exam weeks. It is without doubt achievable if you are willing to work hard at it.

4. If you wish to work then yes. You will know yourself from experience the burden of being faced with 80k upwards in debt with no job guarantee when people paying half of that can be just as qualified and have as good a chance of a job whilst being financially stable if they pay as they fly. Modular is financially easier if you can work and fly at the same time. Only thing is you would be wise to ensure your training timeline doesn't have huge gaps between licences and learning because you may find you loose knowledge which can show in assessments.

5. Lots of schools in England. Bournemouth, FTA Global are reputable, Stapleford, Aeros, Airways flight training or Oxford and CTC if you are completley sold on the whole propaganda they throw at aspiring pilots louring them into ridiculously over priced training ... Plenty in reasonably close proximity to London. FTA in particular operate DA40 aircraft with modern glass cockpits so I'd check them out, I wish I could have done my PPL on something like that!

6. For me, my biggest fear is to be stuck doing something that I maybe reasonably like but know that there is something else I really wish I could be doing instead. I am 21 with a PPL but I work for an airline and see the people who I aspire to be like coming in for their flights and wish I could just be doing their job already. It's inspiring though and keeps me going towards my career ambition.

Hope it works out for you!

Jaair

1. Do bigger European airlines still consider pilots who went the modular route?
Definitely. Ryanair, Jet2 and Flybe to name a few.

2. Will airlines still consider me, even if I did 'fail' half of my ATPLs at first attempt all those years ago?
Good question, but I thought ATPL results 'expire' after a few years if you haven't finished the course? But to answer the question, it depends on the airline as some may be picky. I believe Ryanair allow 2 fails, but I am basing that on something I heard a few months ago. Note that ATPL fails are merely a form of reducing the CV pile size. A bad set of ATPL results does not mean that the candidate is a bad pilot as I've heard there's a lot of crap needed to be learnt as well as ambiguous exam questions.

I would never let that be a deciding factor as to whether or not to start training. If you are determined and have the passion then worry not, you will eventually be flying for a living. It may not be within a week, month or year after graduating but if you stay within aviation and don't give up then you will eventually find yourself in the RHS.

3. Are the theoretical elements possible through distance learning (e.g. ground school)?
Yes, e.g. BGS. Search around PPRune to find lots of people having done their ATPL while married with kids and working a full time job. A lot of them are also now flying.

4. Is modular the way to go in my situation? Any other route that can be done ‘part-time'?
Pretty sure most integrated schools are full time. So if you want to do it all part-time then modular would definitely be the way. With the current pilot forecast for the next 2 decades it seems like pilots will be in much greater demand. Some people have mentioned that there has been a decrease in demand over the past 12 months but it could be explained by the sudden supply of pilots from Monarch/Air Berlin.

5. What schools are recommended within easy reach of London (especially for the PPL)? I’m willing to travel up to 2 hours by train - no problem - so long as the school is reputable and my qualifications respected as I continue doing the licences/courses.

6. Any other input is much appreciated
I got my PPL a few years ago and starting my ATPL in summer after graduating from University. Would be happy to keep in touch with you or anyone else who reads this so feel free to shoot me a PM. We all have the same goal here.

BirdmanBerry

I've done very limited PPL training but my research told me this:

1, Flybe replied to an email from me when I asked if my age was a barrier to employment with them. They replied that they take pilots from all different backgrounds and that modular shouldn't be an issue and nor should my age (38).

2, Can't answer that.

3, Check out Bristol Ground School.

4, Check out Aeros's Fast Track scheme. This is run in conjunction with BGS and has placed pilots with airlines. You can do this as quick or slow as you wish.

5, I would go with Aeros if I had the funds as the Fast Track scheme is PAYG and Gloucester is 5 minutes from my house! BGS also offer a similar scheme. Links below:

Aeros Fastrack - Aeros Flight Training
https://www.wingsalliance.eu/

Jaair

Noticed WA was just mentioned, https://www.wingsalliance.eu/trainin...ing-explained/ is definitely a good read.

mrcsn

Thank you @Jaair @GAPilot261087 @Council_Van and @BirdmanBerry - I must say, I feel really optimistic after reading all your replies.

Scouseflier85

Just a quick one guys and girls i am currently 32 and my dilemma is to go integrated or modular, I know of integrated cadets in there mid 30s who have gained employment at EZY. My preference would be modular as it’s the cheaper of the two, but begs the question how many mid 30 cadets the like RYR take when competition is so fierce from young guys Queuing up for a type rating, the gamble to me seems pretty straight forward 50-60k for modular with frozen atpl with maybe little hope of employment or 100k+ gamble whitetail at a big provider eg L3 Fte cae etc just looking foy any help guidance anyone been in my position gained employment mid 30s after traing thanks in advance.